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![]() | Blood parrot cichlid clarification needed. Opinion needed. |
longhairedgit![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Fish Guru Lord of the Beasts Posts: 2502 Kudos: 1778 Votes: 29 Registered: 21-Aug-2005 ![]() ![]() | This isnt one of those things where the arguement is whether we think parrot cichlid breeding should be encouraged or not, what I want to know here as part of a study, is the whole perceptions and myths vs reality. The major thing while performing this study ive noticed is that a lot of rubbish is talked about the fertility of these fish. Most people belive they cannot breed because they are genetically unable to do so. It is a common misconception that hybrids, born in nature or through a breeding programme are always infertile. Now despite the fact that your rather undereducated average science teacher will swear on his mothers grave that a stable population cannot ever be produced from a hybrid , it IS possible and does happen occassionally. Bacteria , all the way up to mammals have shown so called "sports of nature" that have bred although, the offspring are usually weak, and fertilisation rates are low, and survival rates are even lower. Peoples cruddy peripheral knowledge of genetics is not my problem, ive seen enough definite info to know that this so often espoused "fact" is of course complete rubbish. Basically some hybrids do produce viable young and have produced viable young and there is plenty of definitive proof about this. This is a fact that although slow to take in the mind of your average archaic ex-scientist,or lecturer, is just a fact of life we have to learn to live with.In fact especially since so much taxonomy is little more than "drawing lines in the sand" I and quite a few others believe that in some cases hyridisation can be a normal part of gene sharing in an evolutionary context, although obviously im not suggesting that blood parrots will ever be a natural part of that kind of evolutionary mechanism. If we can leave that part of the arguement behind a minute while it dawns on the general population we can get on with the juicy stuff! Ok I have found fairly solid evidence that parrot cichlids whatever their parentage (there is some variablility, particularly when recrossed with red devils etc ) can produce viable offspring, I have seen a video with some parrot cichlids moving fry around with their mouths and looking after the young much as you would expect a convict to do. It could have been faked I guess, but seeing the fry be spat out again, was fairly compelling as blood parrots are pretty greedy feeders, and not known for spitting out perfectly good food. Second I now also believe that the administration of hormones to a male parrot cichlid can and will improve fertility for breeding, and therefore I have absolutely no doubt that breeding young genetically similar to the parents is possible, and unfortunately this practise is leading to a lot of the badly coloured and pale specimens that find themselves being marched of to a scumbag fish tattooist for a few weeks of torture and a lifetime of disease. Yep im not happy bout that either, but the point is , im pretty sure I can prove its done on a regular basis.Im also pretty sure its done a lot in america because frankly , the taiwanese are up to something else. Now heres the interesting bit, at least as far as regards parrot cichlid breeding in Taiwan I have strong suspicions that the chimeara strain of the blood parrot is stable, and breeds normally.How or why and indeed if this has been acheived is what im looking for. Why? Because not only is the morphology of the fish so consistant multigenerationally, but when translating a number of Taiwanese government websites , I noticed that alongside a number of "gm" species that have been modified for flourescent colouration etc, it is standard government policy for parrots to be chemically steralised before they leave the country. Why would the taiwan government sanction this? This came as something as a shock to me.But it makes perfect sense. Rather than having to force hybridization between the original progenitor species of the blood parrot with highly variable results, and redoubtful breeding results, wouldnt it be more financially viable to stabilise parrot cichlids genetically if you could into a stable breeding variant with none of the injury and aggression downsides of endlessly trying to recombine some fairly aggressive cichlid species in 2 -3 generation cycles? I have a strong suspicion that for the last few years there have been genetically modified blood parrot cichlids imported across the world. The only reason they arent breeding is that they have been chemically steralised. I mean seriously go out there and look. Somethings happening. Im seeing stronger specimens, cleaner colour, bigger speciments, better scalation, lips in better shape, unbroken irises, absolutely standard spine curvature, its almost like we're seeing some clones out there, or a huge number of specimens rom a very small but stable genepool. Seriously , the more I look the more Im seeing them. Throughout being juveniles, colour is and morphology are showing some really standardised changes. Somebody just found a way to standardise the breed better. Im almost convinced its due to some fish having had some gm work done on them. Hoping to see some DNA samples analysed soon , but until then morphology is all I have to go on. Hey is a conspiracy theory, but it seems to be proving itself the more I find out. What do you cunningly acute chaps and chappettes think about that? Anything you could contribute would be valuable, since opinion is part of my study,should you have a scientific background or not. Snything you can tell me about parrot breeding anywhere in the world could help me find a lot of answers, and more than likely give a better picture about how governments and the pet trade have an overall effect on fish health. Myths and facts abount in this area, and all are valuable to me. Tell me what you know, what you think you know and what youve been told. It all gives me perspectives to work on. Cheers in advance. |
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Doedogg![]() ![]() ![]() Banned Posts: 408 Kudos: 737 Votes: 445 Registered: 28-Jan-2004 ![]() ![]() | |
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Calilasseia![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Panda Funster Posts: 5496 Kudos: 2828 Votes: 731 Registered: 10-Feb-2003 ![]() ![]() | This isn't a fish I have any experience with, and in any case I tend to eschew hybrids because there are so many perfectly decent natural species to choose from. In particular, there is a REAL Parrot Cichlid, Hoplarchus psittacus, from South America, which in my view knocks the socks off any hybrid in the beauty stakes. Take a look at thsi beauty yourself and see if you don't agree! ![]() Returning to hybrids, we're back to one of my favourite words - provenance. With non hybrid fishes, you're pretty sure of what you're getting - such issues as inbreeding and inadequate maintenance/rearing aside, but those make themselves manifest fairly quickly in the health of the fishes. With hybrids, you have the problem that the 'recipe' for creating them, as it were, is a closely guarded secret among the breeders, though thanks to a photo in one of my TFH back numbers, I am pretty sure that Heros severus and Cryptoheros spilurus are part of the mix, because that old black and white photo (I'll scan it and post it here if you like) is eerily reminiscent of a Blood Parrot precursor. That particular hybridisation was an accident, and wasn't brought about intentionally, but doubtless that paved the way for the future in the eyes of those who simply can't enjoy an activity unless they're tinkering and meddling like mad. ![]() Personally I would give hybrid Blood Parrots a wide berth because frankly, producing a fish like this is rather like taking Scarlett Johanssen and trowelling the make up onto her face until she becomes a drag caricature of a woman - it's pointless, aesthetically dubious to put it mildly, and most of us would MUCH prefer Scarlett as she is (I mean, does she NEED altering?) and the same in my book goes for the fishes. None of them NEED altering, none of them NEED their genes messing with in this fashion. Fortuitious mutations that are true breeding and produce an attractive fish I have no problems with, and likewise if any hybridisations occur by accident, I have no problem with that, but treating a fish like a car that's being hot rodded seems to me to defeat the ob ![]() |
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longhairedgit![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Fish Guru Lord of the Beasts Posts: 2502 Kudos: 1778 Votes: 29 Registered: 21-Aug-2005 ![]() ![]() | You'll get no arguement from me there, ethically I totally agree on the hybrid front, but these fish are out there, and are probably not going to go away. I am pesonally against hybridisation outside of the natural evolutionary incidences of it in wild settings, but I try to remain neutral for the purposes of checking things out. The I like to keep track, and I have to admit that although im not a big approver of hybrids or any kind of selective breeding that leads to deformity and debilitation almost everyone I know who assumes these are "real" fish without the hindsight of knowledge seem to like them and be attracted to them. When asking their questions I simply like to be able to give an authoratitive answer, hence this little study of mine. A lot of people promote these hybrid parrots with evangelism I find unhealthy, and equally others try to advocate their immediate destruction and clearance from planet earth without any personal experience of them. Im thinking of writing a profile for them on here so that people can have a nice balanced definitive version, complete with the problems of ownership, the nature of the fish's deformity , its questionable origins, and then leave the question of acceptability to the potential owner. If I could ignore hybrid parrots I would, but all but one of the fish stockists in my area has them. I wonder if fp would tolerate a parrot cichlid profile? After all, is it seen to be encouraging ownership of them by having the profile, or does the informative aspect of having a profile allow people to make an informed choice responsibly? Were I to write a profile I might include that while the fish themselves are quite pleasant , that it can be the choice of the individual not to support the breeding of such fish, as the more extreme variants are likely to have diminished life quality, and that the trade behind them can cause much suffering. In short, I wouldnt gloss up a profile as a "promo" for these fish.Rather simply have it there to dispel the many myths that abound , and provide a reliable keepers guide for those who may have made an error in buying one, and may wish to condition them appropriately to observe maximum life quality is preserved. Theres something in me that appreciates that although blood parrots are not to be encouraged to become more popular than they already are, it falls within the remit of my responsibility to see that on an individual basis, they dont suffer from the terminally bad keeping that makes their deformities even more of a cross to bear. In the case of my own blood parrots (I acquired some free of charge for the purposes of my little experiment) the difference between the specimens I selected and the remaining ones kept elsewhere is staggering in terms of health and vitality, and I would like to share the skills I have acquired that help maximise their health, and point out what signs to look for to avoid the worst of the freakishness. I was surprised to find that in many cases a lot of parrot hybrids suffer development issues quite simply because their owners arent up to the mark, and not entirely because of their genetic deformity. Freaks they undoubtedly are, but debilitated and ill fish , they need not be. Perhaps a little input from master adam on this? Id understand if a hybrid parrot cichlid was not wanted, but I think it should be included on the grounds that fp always has espoused, and that is that we want people to take good care of their fish. Whatever that fish may be.Perhaps someone who isnt an active parrot fan, would write a better more balanced profile, without the selective blindness of someone who loves them to death. ....and as ever Cal, thanks for your well balanced and informative comments. I was aware of the " real" parrot cichlid, and it is indeed a beautiful fish, and no doubt much prettier , stronger, and more interesting as an ownership exerience than any blood parrot . I would love to see those plates of possible progenitor fish for the blood parrot, Good pictorial references are hard to come by in this area. Thanks for the contribution. |
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Calilasseia![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() *Ultimate Fish Guru* Panda Funster Posts: 5496 Kudos: 2828 Votes: 731 Registered: 10-Feb-2003 ![]() ![]() | First of all, my mistake. The two fishes in question were actually Cryptoheros spilurus and Australoheros facetus. The letter to the October 1977 issue of TFH, and the reply by Warren E. Burgess, read as follows: Q I have recently become interested in Cichlasoma species which I find readily availab at reasonable prices. So far I have been successful in breeding C. meeki, C. octofasciatus, C. festivum, C. severum and C. nigrofasciatum. ba The photo accompanyng the letter I've em Letter from pp. 69-70 of TFH magazine, October 1977 issue. Note the archaic taxonomic references that were considered valid at that time, prior to the Greenwood paper and the subsequent revision of the Cichlasomines by Kullander, Loiselle and others. I think you'll agree this pic does look as if the fishes are precursors of a Blood Parrot to some extent, and this may give some clues as to the provenance of that particular hybrid. ![]() ![]() |
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longhairedgit![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Fish Guru Lord of the Beasts Posts: 2502 Kudos: 1778 Votes: 29 Registered: 21-Aug-2005 ![]() ![]() | Yes indeed! Those pics show some almost definite morphology clues to the hybrid known as the modern blood parrot, the orientation of the nuchal hump, the curvature of the spine, the beginning of lip mutation, even the widened iris. Im pretty sure at a moments glance that cannot be coincidence. I shall investigate further. Much appreciated. |
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