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We just got 4 rams into quarantine last week with the hope of getting a pair but are starting to think we may have gotten 4 males. My questions are,

1. How long does it generally take non-juvenile bolivians to pair up? and,
2. Does anyone have any surefire ways to sex rams?

The rams, while not juveniles, are also not quite adults either. Their colours aren't showing yet unfortunately. My girlfriend, after doing some research found that you could tell based on the angle of the dorsal fin, anal fin and the tint of the spot behind the gills. Unfortunately, its difficult to spot them inside all of the decor we've added for their comfort.

We have some pics on our digital camera SD card, however, they are very dark and often blurry. We can upload them sometime tomorrow if necessary.

Our biggest dilemma is that our LFS generously gave us a 50% discount and are going to allow us to return/exchange the two of the four which do not pair up. However, we are anxious to get them into our main tank and really don't want to have to start the one-month quarantine all over again if we find we have 4 males after an agonizing month long wait.

The first two/three spines of the dorsal fin or "crest" of the males are usually longer than the rest in males.

It's much harder to sex bolivian rams off the crest of their spine...look at the dorsal and caudal fins - when adult, males have filaments that hang off of them. Males are also larger. They're pretty hard to sex when young...

Eric

Thanks for the replies!

They aren't fully adult, so no filaments are plainly visible yet. I did find a great site with nice pictures detailing the differences between the two sexes.

http://www.brc.moonfruit.com/

However, upon trying to re-access it a few hours later its being difficult and not letting me in.

Things that were listed on this very awesome article were:

1. Dorsal spines #3 and 4 are taller on males, on females the dorsal fin is more or less all the same length.
2. Reproductive "tube" just in front of the anal fin is thinner and held closer to the body on males. On females, it is fatter and pointing straight down.
3. Males heads have a "bump", very slight, but when compared to the female profile, which is completely symmetrical it is fairly apparent.
4. Tail filaments on males are extended on the caudal fin.

Taking all those signs into account, we seem to have at least one female who likes to play coy and live in the cave. She isn't harassed very often, although one (which we suspect is a male) is sometimes sneaking up to the mouth of the cave.

However, none have paired yet... How long did it take your Bolivians to pair?

when i got mine i started with 10,and it took about six months,if you have the tank space and money,maybe try adding more,when attempting to get a pair the more you have the easyer and faster this will happen for you.plus as said above they are hard to sex when young,so its hard to just know for sure that you have a male or a female,but if you had say 10 of em,the chances of getting a pair are much greater,also then you know for sure they are compatable because they chose there partner,and not you so to speak..

Unfortunately we only have room for the 4 in the quarantine we have set up. Actually, not even room for those, as we expected juveniles. We're a bit worried that they won't pair due to the lack of space in there...but we're still optimistic. 1 female to 3 males isn't too bad of a ratio I suppose. Hopefully she chooses one of them.

4 gives you a very good chance of having a pair...especially if you pick the 2 largest and two smallest from the LFS.

How big is your tank? If it's 36" long you'll likely be able to keep all 4 in the tank if you want to (they're more fun in groups).

Eric

The main tank they're eventually going into is indeed a 36" 50 gallon, but its a community tank so most of the room is taken up. I also don't think we have enough females to go around. If we did get 2 pairs we'd no question keep all of them, but I don't think we did and without pairs each of them needs quite a bit of territory from what we've read. 10 square inches each or so according to some sources.