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Its not *really* the dark side, but it may as well be.

After much thought, I have decided to put off my marine tank until I can get A/C, as the temperatures here are knocking off even the most healthy trops.

I have decided that going for cichlids would be just as much of a change and far easier to work with water wise


Now, I have a few choices to make and I'd love a hand

1) Do I use an Aquaone all-in-one A380 (10 gal, approx 12" x 12" footprint) or a 14 gal glass or a 2' glass, or a 1' section of a 2' glass?

2) Do I use white builders sand, coral sand, shellgrit, coral grit, pea gravel and shell grit, beach sand, black gravel, white gravel or something else?

3) UGF or Sponge filter?

4) Multies, brevis, occies, or 'other'? Please keep in mind I have never owned a cichlid and am not particularly partial to bullies or anything with a boofy head

5) Other fish. I'm fairly certain shellies are species tank only, however they seem to also be lower tank only, leaving a thumping great space for topswimmers. IF the needs and wants of the shellies came first, would I be able to add a small group of say, danios? It just seems like such a waste to have only half a tank in use When it comes to topswimmers, are there any that must be avoided? long flowy fins for example, or maybe some that are known bullies or nippy?

6) I have found a supplier for escargot shells, and I am thinking of adding a few 'showy' shells, but do I have to be careful that the openings are wide enough to allow easy access? Do they try to cram themselves in small shells and get stuck?

7) Breeding, the 64,000 question. I assume that they do breed and that they don't cannibalise fry on a regular basis? I'd really love a less high maintenance breeder than those bettas can the fry grow out in the same tank? any food requirements? at what point must they be separated? (base this on whatever species you think most suits )


now, I know that I am going to get the standard optimum requirement thingy, but I'd kinda like the non-standard absolute minimum "how far can I push things" answer too. Not because I want to do that, but because I have no idea what I'm doing and it will help me get a feel for this type of fish and this type of tank setup Two extremes and a middle ground would be awesome


Ta guys


Oh, and Aussies: what prices are you paying? I can get multies for $5ea, brevis for $15ea, and the rest are a bit hard to find but i'm assuming under $100pr for all except meleagris (not for me, for another breeder with shelldweller experience ) Are these prices reasonable? If not, what should I be aiming for?


Last edited by Callatya at 15-Jan-2006 08:10

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

1. use a 14 gal. (but id suggest bigger but i dont know whats in your price range)

2. sand is what you should use i have some chiclids and they love to dig.

3 since your getting sand(i guess) i wouldnt seggest either i would seuggest a hang on filter but if i have to choose i think a sponge would be okay.

4. i dont know lol

5 Really most chiclids swim any where from top to bottom but they prefer the bottom. When u go to buy the fish watch where the fish swims then you will have an idea.

6. They probably wont get stuck most chiclids are smart enough not to get stuck in shells. so shells will be fine. but i would suggest getting drift wood with an opening at the top because that more closely relates to their natural enviroment but really its up to you.

7. I have never breed chiclids so i dont know (ask an expert)

hope this info is a help
ph

>>>----> <----<<<

pnh

The shelly place is wonderful I started with them only 4 months ago so I'll just tell you my personal experience.

I think multies are good to start with. Not bullies and they establish a nice colony-tank. They don't like substrate though. I have a very small layer of crushed coral in my multi tank, mainly for buffering. Even that they move to the tank corners They do like lots &amp; lots of shells...in my 10g I think I have 60-70 [link=whale eye]http://cichlidbreeding.com/proddetail.php?prod=2shell&amp;cat=10" style="COLOR: #66CCFF[/link] shells. Similis would also be a good choice.

In my second tank I have a brevis pair plus fry. The substrate is crushed coral mixed with Aragonite. I have smaller shells in the tank for the fry, but the pair prefer the [link=muffin snail shells]http://cichlidbreeding.com/proddetail.php?prod=7shells&amp;cat=10" style="COLOR: #66CCFF[/link] because of their larger size. After multies, the brevis almost seemed 'huge' to me Quite a devoted pair though, I like them a lot.

I recently converted my 29g to a Tang tank. Long before I considered getting shellies I thought stapps (meleagris) were nice looking. They do have a bit of an odd face, although mine are quite young &amp; maybe that will change as they get older. This setup is something of an experiment for me. Being a 'tall' tank I decided to add other fish in addition to the shellies; so far there haven't been any problems, but again, all the fish are young. It's funny though, these shellies are staying in the middle portion of the tank...maybe because of the other fish? I think when they get to breeding age they'll get back to the shells. In this tank the substrate is ~3/4 gravel and the remaining section is Aragonite mixed with black sand for the shellies. I used muffin snail shells since the stapps are closer is size to the brevis.

I think danios would be ok depending on the pH of your tank; my shellie tanks are ~7.9-8.0 I'm always concerned if other fish will eat fry.

I just use hob filters so maybe another shellie addict with a different setup could give you that info.

Hope I helped some

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Thanks guys

I'm trying to keep power use to a minimum, so thats why i'm going for air-driven filtration.

The tanks are just what I have around at the moment, I have been forbidden from purchasing more



For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Well i wouldnt quite call it the dark side, but it sure is the addictive side!

i will give you my personal experience with multis but the info i will give you on brevis and occies is just stuff i learnt/picked up along the way.

1) Like they say, bigger is better so i'd go the 14 gal. what is the footprint of the tank? any will work depending on what you want to keep, i'd use the bigger tank for multis coz they will soon become a colony. if you chose the 1' section its probably best left for a pair of brevis or occies.

2) i would probably go with just plain sand or coral sand to buffer. the problem with whiter sand is that your fish may looked washed out in the light. Or maybe they will be a bit skittish coz its too bright? i'm not sure tho, just speculating! i use plain sand i bought from bunnings and just chuck shell grit in the cannister.

dont add too much sand if you have multis as the will definatelly do some redecorating! i remember reading somewhere that if you cover the bottom with shells the multis wont dig.... wrong! my multis just started burying shells so i ended up having to do alot of digging myself to recover them.

3) because i recommended sand, i'd have to say sponge. my multis seemed to take a liking to burying my sponge filter in sand (as well as my plants) so i changed to a external filter.

4)i can only speak from experience here so i guess i would have to say multis! depends what you are after really. if you want a pair i guess brivis or occies would be the go. from what i hear tho occies can be quite aggressive, or maybe thats only when trying to pair them. but if you want a colony, get a trio of multis.

5) i'd say just species only with tanks that small. my multis are the only residents of a standard 4' and the adults swim at all levels! i've tried to add some guppys to the tank only to have them constantly harrassed by the harem.

6) I personally havent had any fish stuck in shells but i have heard of it happen. this usually happens when the fish is scared and darts into the shell for protection. it has to be a pretty drastic scare tho for it to occur so i think you should be ok.

7) Well after betta's, shellie fry should be a breeze! you can leave the fry with multis as they live in colonies anyway, sometimes you'll even see older fry protectin younger ones! i know with brevis and occies you can leave them in with the parents up to a certain age then they have to leave home. no real special food requirments, crushed flake will do, altho BBS or microworms would be good (speaking of microworms... can i steal some or urs still?).

as for extremes, you can probably cram a good amount of multis in the tank, but you'll prob need to get rid of the sponge filter and use a HOB or canister to improve filtration and create more floor space in the tank.

$5 multis is pretty good, r they juvis or adults? $15 brevis seem a bit pricey to me (assuming these are the juvis you were talking about from the other post). you could prob save a bit of $$ if you can find a breeder, say $8ea.

Calla,
Where do you get the multi's and brevis?

~elaine~

some have been found at LFS, heres the post she started about it in the classifieds if you havent already seen it

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Classifieds/67983.html?200601152351

ok this will more then likely turn into a really long reply so ill apologise for the long read ahead of time lol.

Calla ! heheh you have no idea what your getting yourself into. your bettas are great looking fish and can be housed in small tanks. unfortently they have no friends! well shellies have LOTS of friends and can still be kept in small tanks. just letting you know so you can control your addiction a little better then you have with your bettas LOL. onto the questions!

1) Do I use an Aquaone all-in-one A380 (10 gal, approx 12" x 12" footprint) or a 14 gal glass or a 2' glass, or a 1' section of a 2' glass?

two things play a part in this. if its going to be just shellies then you want the largest footprint so you may fit as many shells as possable. if you want top dwellers you want a long tank for swimming. Bigger is better but if you have space restraints then the foot print is the goal your after. I have my multis in a 10g at the moment but they are just growing out for my 30g breeder (36"l x 18"w x 13"h). the more you have the more they act like they would naturally and this was my goal.

2) Do I use white builders sand, coral sand, shellgrit, coral grit, pea gravel and shell grit, beach sand, black gravel, white gravel or something else?

Personally i use tahitian blackmoon sand but this is mainly personal preference not fish preference. Any sand will work really you really just want to make sure they arnt a highly rough or sharp sand. Multis dont like sand so their sollution is to move it until its gone lol. You want to use very little of it i would say about a half inch maybe less. could even go barebottom or have slate on the bottom for looks. just keep in mind they will move it and fast but this is something you should see so i would add some sand atleast. Gravel will also work they will pick up one or 2 pebbles up at a time and move them. not as funny as sand but if your partial to gravel it would work.

3) UGF or Sponge filter?

between the choices i say sponge. they arnt huge waste produces so you dont need a whole lot of mechanical filtration, its quiet, and cheap. i would suggest a sponge filter you can put on the side glass rather then the bottom, the goal is floor space so dont give it away to a filter. HOB power filters will also work fine or a internal filter placed above the bottom. UGF will NOT work with sand and dont recommend them for gravel with cichlids because they WILL dig it up.

4) Multies, brevis, occies, or 'other'? Please keep in mind I have never owned a cichlid and am not particularly partial to bullies or anything with a boofy head

Multies deffinetly. require less space, they dont bully, very hardy, and are insanely fun to watch. i would put them right up there with cories with anticts. They dont have the wonderfull coloring as the others listed but they do have some. they can be foudn with some yellow on their fins and they do have the stripes which i think look nice.

5) Other fish. I'm fairly certain shellies are species tank only, however they seem to also be lower tank only, leaving a thumping great space for topswimmers. IF the needs and wants of the shellies came first, would I be able to add a small group of say, danios? It just seems like such a waste to have only half a tank in use When it comes to topswimmers, are there any that must be avoided? long flowy fins for example, or maybe some that are known bullies or nippy?

Any top swimmers need to be small and fast and this wont garantee harmony. i recommend species only for a while and watch the multis as is. If you feel the need to still add top dwellers then there are a few options. one of them is small versions of Cyps example that will go well but they require large schools and long tanks for swimming room so if you were to decide on a larger tank these would be my 1st choice. There are other choices but i just woke up ill get back to ya lol. Long fins are out of the question and they need to be fast and less curious would be good. idea is to keep them off the bottom because the colony will not tolerate anything invadeing the bottom half of the tank.

6) I have found a supplier for escargot shells, and I am thinking of adding a few 'showy' shells, but do I have to be careful that the openings are wide enough to allow easy access? Do they try to cram themselves in small shells and get stuck?

escargot shells are perfect. they are almost allways recommend if the few dollar a piece natural shells dont agree with your wallet lol and most the time thats the case. leaving it all escargot looks nice IMHO but if you perfer the flashy shells you need to be carefull of the spiral inside. shellies are easily spooked and the shell is their defense. they dart in them at breakneck speeds to hide so if the spiral gets small fast they can get stuck. this can happen in any shell really but the tiny spiral shells have a tendancy to cause issues more often.

7) Breeding, the 64,000 question. I assume that they do breed and that they don't cannibalise fry on a regular basis? I'd really love a less high maintenance breeder than those bettas can the fry grow out in the same tank? any food requirements? at what point must they be separated? (base this on whatever species you think most suits )

breeding, the best part of multis in my mind. they live as a colony so they protect each other including fry. there are no speciel requirments for the fry. bit of java moss is a plus but not required. can feed crushed flake but again not required. they can pretty much find their own bits floating around especielly in an established tank with alot of algae growth. they lay the eggs inside the shell and you would be really to spot them at this point. wiggler will start to poke thier heads out in a few days and even now your gotta be looking hard. eventually the mother kicks them out of the shell and they will hide at th ebase of the shell in a valley of sand around it. this is more then likely when your gona spot them. they will start to come up above the shells to get food with the others at this point. the only requirment is shells and clean water. you want ALOT of shells and i mean tons. you wanna figure 3 shells per fish or more and layers is fine by them. the more shells you have the more fish you can keep. the water is really your restriction. they have little bioload so it takes alot to effect it but there ar elimits like any tank. keep up with water changes and you can have a really nice sized colony. the fish will actually notice when the limits of the tank are being pushed and breeding will decrease and spawn size will also get smaller due to predation of the fathers. if they feel the colony is in danger of over populating they will remove small fry before they can be an issue. fact..not sure i havent gotten this far in my multi tank.

well thats a serious read. i highly recommend checking out this site shelldwellers it has a ton of info and very helpfull people. make sure to update us with some pics and/or info when you get this going. i would really enjoy watching it come alive. its the best part

wish you the best of luck and enjoy
(hope this helped)

Sin

At my lfs brevis are $11 each. These are from a breeder, another lfs can't even get them in.

Milkyboy

Gravel will also work they will pick up one or 2 pebbles up at a time and move them. not as funny as sand

It really is funny...multies will make piles of the gravel in corners of the tank, in other areas it's removed down to the glass.

They dont have the wonderfull coloring as the others listed but they do have some.

Mine have the yellow on their dorsal fins-it can even be seen on the juveniles-and the blue eyes are multies are beautiful!



~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean