FishProfiles.com Message Forums

hello everyone
i am not new to the hobbie but i do not know what all the terms mean like when some one mentions f1 fish and f2 fish also where do i find out what or where the fish are that have code names like L044, L103 eg...lol not sure if those are right but you know what i mean
if anyone has time to explain this to me i would be grateful and more educated...to embarassed to ask at the pet store don't want to look like a novice.
thanx Michael

The 'L' ones are the way that science is describing new species of loricariid catfish.
The 'F's are to do with cross bred species.

F numbers are to do with line breeding, not so much cross breeding when it comes to hobby fish.
The term can be used for cross breeding I believe, but 9 times out of 10 you are looking at something like guppies, bettas or flowerhorns and those would all be the same species, but with defined lines within that.

When you get two non-sibling fish and breed then together, the offspring are known as F1 (first filial generation). If you get two fish from that F1 spawn and breed them brother to sister, the resulting fry would be F2 and so on.
Backcrosses and outcrosses start the numbering system over again, because the parent fish would not be siblings so offspring would again be F1.

There are also P numbers, which refer to the parents of an F1 generation.

It is basically a way of keeping track of breeding when dealing with lines and outcrosses/backcrosses.

Generally speaking, with F1, the traits that they were looking to set in the resulting offspring won't breed true (be replicated in the offspring), but by F2 they are looking a bit more promising and likely to produce predictable results. Around F3 you really need to start thinking about outcrossing (completely unrelated fish or fish from a parallel line, so a distant cousin) or backcrossing (with a parent or grandparent from the same line) because while you might want to set a trait or keep a line 'pure', inbreeding is inbreeding and it can lead to weak fish with physical problems, greatly reduced libido etc etc. By F4, with most fish you are at the end of the line and will start to see unwanted traits as a result to the closely related genetics. Sometimes you can go further, but it is really really asking for trouble.

If I was wanting fish to keep as pets, F numbers are unimportant. If you are looking at imports or rare fish to keep, the lower F numbers generally sell for more $ because they are less inbred and (sometimes) have the colour and form of wild caught fish but without so much risk of stress and disease as they have been tank bred and raised. This might be important to you, it might not. Sometimes this can be a really good thing, other times wild caught or X generation tank bred is perfectly fine too. Unless you really want it, go by the quality of the animal, not the number.

If I was buying to breed with, I'd want F1 or F2. You could start from scratch and get completely unrelated fish, but usually fish that people bother with F numbers on are from quality stock and are already giving predictable results in offspring (for example, if I bought an F2 pair of blue bettas, I could be pretty confident that the offspring would be a similar quality blue with similar fins and a similar body shape, whereas if I bought two random blue bettas, I could end up with any number of unexpected outcomes.)

Generally, if someone is bragging about F1 or trying the hard sell, they are either pleased that they've worked up to the next stage in their breeding program and are working towards a goal that requires a few sibling crosses, or they are trying to tell you that the fish are the first generation that has been captive bred from wild caught stock.

Hope that helps a bit

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

thanks and thanks Callatya
that helped a lot and that explains a lot...i have been browsing adds on-line and this came up a lot, i also seen it on some store tanks. thank you for your detailed explanation very good to know.

also i see people talking about getting a L 00 this and they traded a L 00 that....where can i get a list of the L species ? i am a huge fan and am qurius to look them up and know what fish are being talked about..i can only find one at a time. on line is there a web site that lists them all and there name and number?

thanks again Michael

Getting your hands on the pleco Aqualog book would be your best bet, but otherwise there are some here:

http://planetcatfish.com/catelog/numbers.php?mode=l&thumbs=16

And a little article on plecos and L numbers
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/shanesworld.php?article_id=175

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

One more important information on the F numbers. There are line breeding only, not cross breeds. And they are used to refer to how many lines the fish are away from wild.

Thus, a wild pair spawn, then this spawn is considered F1. Every time the wild pair spawns, it is alway F1. When these F1s spawn, then the next generation is considered F2. And so on. Fish closest to wild are what many people are looking for. And you will find the closest to wild being the more expensive fish.

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

exactly what i was looking for
thank you so much Callatya
Michael

Sorry for the misread info regarding 'Fs'.

also, just FYI, forgot to add it in my previous post, F0 is the term for wild fish.

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...