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hey guys i got a orange pike cichlid and my catfish ate it but i need to know more about it so if i get a lager one what are the need and if they wont work what else i could put in there i got a tiger shovelnose catfish and he is about 8" or so and love live food i got him a $16 meal and i dont want it to happen again so any seggestions would be helpful i got a 4" oscar is there to so some thing that wont die i want cichlids to no more catfish.

I don't know what size tank you have your shovelnose in, but according to Fishbase.com it may get up to 3.5 feet long (104 cm). So it's definitely a tankbuster in the making.

I do know that it's a fish that will not hesitate to eat anything that it can fit in it's mouth so tank mates need to be size accordingly.

Jim

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Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

Biggest Pike Cichlids - Crenicichla species - I know of reach 12 inches. Even a full grown adult will, in the fullness of time, be a tempting meal for that Tiger Shovelnose.

By the way, which Tiger Shovelnose do you have? Only there's more than one species given that appellation, ALL of them monster Pimelodid catfishes, but some are more monster than others ... I'm really hoping you don't have Brachyplatystoma filamentosum, otherwise known as the Piraiba in South America, because that isn't so much a tank buster as a LAKE buster ... that is a fish that reaches NINE FEET when fully grown, and specimens in their native Amazon are regarded as FRY if they're UNDER 100 lbs in weight!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

ok i got the one that gets 3.3 feet long. he likes live food cuz it is a killer that one and i want someing thing like some type of gar.

Maybe there could be a bit of confusion due to some misnaming. Cichla temensis or the peacock bass are sometimes mistakenly known as pike cichlids. They certainly bear no physical relationship to the gars, but they certainly do get to around 3 feet, and are a major predator. Ive certainly heard of Crenicichla species, usually the least well described ones, like venezualans getting to just over 2 feet, but a three footer would be quite something. Either way as the others have pointed out tiger shovelnoses are serious league predators, and like so many people point out with red tailed cats etc, grow far too large for most peoples domestic care abilities. Their mouth is proportionately enormous,and their stomachs expandable. Pretty much any fish more than 20% smaller than it is might end up down the hatch. Catfish really dont seem to worry about having to move after a good meal, and many of them will just potato out after having downed a meal other fish would find impossible. That oscars chances of long term survival wont be that good, in fact I can give him a growth rate vs survival time, of about 3 months max. He kinda already on the menu.

You wouldnt be the first to think that an aggressive cichlid will be ok with that large catfish, only to find that mouth size pretty much rules. I rather like catfish for that reason, not especially aggressive, and capable of eating pretty much anything they can fit in their gob. Sometimes I cant help thinking they are the perfect antidote for those weirdos who want their fish to fight all the time.

All these mental 5 year olds going "my fish is soo aggressive... my fish is soooo mean, mine is vicious. bleh blehbleh!"

Then GULP the big friendly catfish with the smile gets the tank to itself, and never showed a seconds temper, or gave its owner the satisfaction of seeing the prey get eaten. And pray that they dont lose their temper, because if they do, they have a body ramming technique that can pummel even mid sized pacus. Most aggressive cichlids would basically be pulped by an adult shovelnose even if they werent outright eaten.

This is why methinks so much literature quotes that you should keep such carnivores with fish that are roughly the same size or larger. These people really arent joking...

So to recap if you want your shovenose to have cagemates, they must a ) be over 8 inches long now and at least of similar build, b)they must keep up with the shovelnoses growth rate at the very least,which will be tricky, cos a well fed tiger might grow 80 cm a year! C) You really need them to top out at over 3 feet, and preferably stay away from the bottom of the aquarium , so something like an arowana may be more suitable.

Did you want a tank that big?

I have no idea how much fishkeeping experience you have , but even seasoned veterans of the hobby would baulk at the responsibility , cost and tanksize required for properly housing a bigger tiger shovelnose for its entire life in comfort.It'd be a shame if it got to that stage where a fish is choking in its own urine, in a tank that it cannot even turn round in because that dreamt of cashflow never arrived, or was not planned for properly. A good tank for an adult shovelnose might be so big that it will probably require planning permission. If you have a load of money, and own your own (large ) home, I guess you have time to learn more about the fish and get it right, if not, perhaps give it back to the shop. This 8 inch catfish could end up weighing more than you, and require a tank you actually have to get into to clean!

ps if you want a definitive id of the fish, just to make sure you havent fallen victim to petshop BS , try posting a piccy for us. We loove the piccies.

wow one of them BIG CATS would be a sight to see,i wish i could put 1 of them big fellas in with my fh.are most of the big cats you guys speak of,not available in aussy land,its just that you dont see them...also im not doubting you at all lhe,but that would also be a sight to see,1 of those big cats wolfing down some nasty cichlid,man they must have a BIG MOUTH,to need a tank mate that is over 8 inches,its just hard to picture,with some of the cichlids ive seen and kept that have just been huge,robust killing monsters,like i said im not mocking you,its just hard to picture thats all...,one other thing,i was reading on the net on a fish site,that a guy who lived on a property and kept fish that got HUGE,like those cats,and gars,arrowanas,and this guy,had been keeping them for years,and he said that them preistoric fish,cant have a permanant home in any home fishtank,he starts them off in his colossol tanks,then when they reach a certain size he moves them to a man made lake on his property(now thats dedication),ill go and try to find the article....

Yeah the unrealistic keeping expectations of a lot of people staggers me, I mean alligators gars are cool and all that , but imagine trying to house this ! Can you imagine being in the tank with this fish, scraping algae with it looking squarely at the back of your head?

http://www.opticstalk.com/photoserver/images/photos/1559.jpg

http://www.iobis.org/images_new/ILAlligatorGar.jpg

That just isnt going to be cheap to feed.

....and neither is a tiger shovelnose. This is that famous huge gob of his, and a nice underneath shot where you can see the capacity of that stomach.
http://www.flower-horn.de/pseudoplatystomafasciatum.html


In fact I only mention it because my lfs rather foolishly decided to stock both of these species last week.

Meh!

Meanwhile, if anyone is thinking of taking on a Piraiba, then here's some bad news for you ...

Piraiba catfish, Brachyplatystoma filamentosum

You think an Alligator Gar is bad news? Try THIS fish.

Back on topic ... one problem with some of the Crenicichla Pike Cichlids, namely those belonging to the Subgenus Batrachops, is that they are bottom dwellers and have a swim bladder that has reduced in capacity over time (presumably an adaptation for living in fast flowing waters, allowing the fishes to remain on the bottom). Consequently a fish in that group would quickly come to the attention of a Tiger Shovelnose as possible lunch.

For your edification, here is a web page covering the Genus Crenicichla in detail which mentions that the Genus is likely to undergo significant changes in the future because the Genus remains as defined in the days before cladistic analyses, and consequently is LONG overdue for a revision.

EDIT : LHG, your LFS wouldn't by any chance be the one run by Sean Evans? Only that place stocks fishes like that to special order for people who know how to keep them. People like Practical Fishkeeping's Richard Hardwick. Who already has quite a collection of big oddballs.



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Piraiba are some truly impressive fish, and cant be far behind the increasingly rare giant mekong catfish for sheer bulk. Somehow the sheer size of the Piraiba never dawned on me til I saw this video on youtube with a guy releasing one he caught on a line. Check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn6m12tqhd4

( and no its not wharf aquatics) , my lfs is the number two on the list, and unfortunately the alligator gar they have is all priced up and ready to go. I really like the shop, and presumably they will ask all the prudent questions before letting it go to a new owner,they are pretty responsible that way but I still cant help feeling that the amount of large fish specimens in shops radically exceeds the amount of people out there with the cash and knowhow to take care of them, certainly over the long term anyway.

I have nothing, I must stress absolutely nothing against people owning them, or indeed people selling them, provided they do the job properly. Indeed should a small lottery win come my way, I would love to take on a truly giant fish myself, but I always feel that if you cant rival proper public display standard aquaria for these fish, then you probably shouldnt keep them. Ive seen loads of fish that end up in huge sterile boxes of water with no stimulation or true room for movement.I dont think that method of keeping truly qualifies as an "aquarium". I just look at them and get that huge sense of dissapointment when a giant fish doesnt get to express any of its original character or intelligence due to lack of comfort and stimulation. I always feel that fish are very much creatures of their environment, and I often wonder if I am alone when I feel a little saddened upon seeing a big naked tank with a solitary fish in it. There are primary behavioral triggers in life, and denying a fish those conditions then assumming they dont have those behaviours and never trying to cater for them is a huge and tragic mistake. Animal abuse by any other name.

If I was gonna have a fish THAT big, I'd give it something that as far as the fish is concerned is practically a lake, at least in terms of detail and ambience. Maybe im just fussy , and maybe its because I care, but for the same reason I like to see a neon tetra in at least a 3 foot tank complete with plants, a few buddies and a bit of life variety, I like to see even giant fish be able to hide, have some privacy,swim freely, and feel at least a little like there is a piece of the wild still in their lives.

Trouble is , when joe average gets the desire to have a monster fish, all the budget stretches to is pretty much a big glass box. Unless the potential owner has some real dedication, love, ability and skill this doesnt seem like much of a life for the fish.

Im torn between liking seeing these fish in shops because frankly I enjoy seeing the specimens,and am fascinated by them, and hating seeing them there because I know many of them will eventually be kept in conditions that just seem like keeping them prisoner, and all because there is a "must have" mentality in a lot of owners who are not truly prepared.

I know people will always say the tank is kept that clear because of the cleaning required, but isnt that really exactly the same as saying that you have vastly underprovided the truly required amount of water?

In fact I suspect Calilasseia and I have something in common. Theres a lot of fish we'd love to own, but we hold off until we can do it properly, with a desire to push standards forward. If somethings out of reach, its out of reach.I dont believe people think long enough or hard enough about the consequences of making something happen when the life quality of an animal , especially a fish is involved.

I learned to respect the personal choice of environment in the big predatory species long ago when first learning herpetology, and it applies equally to the larger , more intelligent fish.

Bottom line is if you ever give this large predator, no matter how uncommunicative or unintelligent it may seem, the option to be free. It will be take it, and it will never turn back. I have seen releases of previously captive animals and the immediate reaction in their minds the moment they see a glimpse of freedom, and how committed they are to make that freedom a reality even if they have to fight or damage themselves to get it. The smell of open free water, the lure of sunlight, the glimpse of a canopy, and something just drives them to get there.

At the very least I think that means our responsibility has to include giving these big creatures, be they especially communicative or not, something to hold on to, beyond feeding and breathing.

Basically thats a long winded way of saying (spiderman fans will love this lol)

" With greater fish comes greater responsibility"

Unfortunately most monsterfishkeepers are way undershooting the mark. Thats "me culture" for you!

Again im not knocking those people that do a good job, they know who they are are, and they are admired, but those who undershoot the mark really dont have a defensible position . The biggest challenge in monsterfish ownership, is not the water changes, not the feeding, not the keeping them alive. Thats actually the minumum requirement. Any fool with a 10 page leaflet can probably figure that out. The biggest challenge is getting them to behave normally, to develop mentally as well as physically in tune with their wild counterparts , and in this keepers of small fish seem to have more talent , ability, experience, and more importantly more sheer will to get it right than a lot of the people who choose monsterfish , just because they want a pet that has some killing power. Animals are not killing machines. There is nothing mechanical about it. Killing is not their lives, only a part of it.

It takes a wiser man to see the fish behind the predator.

Fish in bowls, bettas in cups, dyed fish, snakes in shoeboxes, green iguanas in converted wardrobes, monster fish in big barren boxes. Tails docked off large lizards cos people dont have the room, declawed cats, flight crippled birds. All because people refuse to take on the whole animal keeping thing with a suitable attitude, the correct funding, and the wit for the full understanding of the animal and its needs.

Its all so innateley crap.Especially when rising to the challenge is infinitely more fun and rewarding.Once done right, you get to feel smug. Feeling smug is one of the truly great emotions.

Just had to get it out of my system

wow all i can say is wow,now those big fellas,in with my fh,it would be like by by flowerhorn,now i can picture one of those cats eating me,let alone my fh.also now i can see why that guys i mentioned above moves his BIG MONSTERS,to his man made lake,i still cant find what site it was...

I would put some very slow moving fish in with your pike. Small guppies or tetras would be great! Actually any small fish is a good choice.

Cali, I don't generally hear B. filamentosum being called a Tiger Shovelnose, especially considering it lacks stripes entirely. Thankfully I haven't seen one in person before either, which is a good thing. Sadly, I have seen paroons, and I was dumbfounded to see them. Partially I knew I was probably the most concerned person in the entire state about about the well-being of the two little paroons I had seen, but obviously I haven't the resources to maintain these, basically, freshwater sharks.

Actually Cali, when you asked "which Tiger Shovelnose", I thought you were referring to the fact that P. tigrinum and P. fasciatum have been split up into seven different species. Don't you just love taxonomy?

I believe Oscars are sometimes kept with Tiger Shovelnoses in public aquaria. I'd guess deep-bodied cichlids are the type you want, maybe. A pike cichlid is skinny; I'd say it has no chance. But obviously the impending problem of maintaining an ever-growing shovelnose catfish is going to be an issue here too. lhg is right, you can't put it past a tiger shovelnose to eat a fish its own length. If you've ever seen a tiger shovelnose yawn you won't ever doubt that predatory catfishes have huge mouths. The gulper catfish (Asterophysus batrachus) is a monstrous fish that can take down prey almost twice their own length! On the other hand, the gulper catfish is a more appropriate aquarium fish as it tops out at about 11"...

I don't think you mentioned your tank size. In a 55 gallon I would say not to add anymore fish, an adult Oscar would pretty much take that tank up alone; your's is only 4", but they're not slow growers. And neither are Tiger shovelnoses.

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The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

Gulpers are good, if you're willing to shell out 400 bucks for a 5" specimen.