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this...

an aquarium in which several adult CA/SA Cichlids coexist with a minimum of combat episodes.

would be a lot easier than this...

a setup to allow several conspecific large Cichlids to coexist even in adulthood

Both are possible depending on the species though having adult conspecifics in the same tank would require a lot more space. In a book I have (which is currently in a box in storage somewhere ) it lists the order in which you'll see the most aggression from cichlids. The number one instance in which you'll see the most aggression is with 2 conspecific males especially if a mature female is present. The second most aggression you'll see is when you have 2 adult males of similar looking species. It is easier to keep 2 cichlids that are not as closely related and that don't look alike. For example, it would be easier to keep an adult jag with an adult red devil than to keep an adult jag with an adult motaguense which is the jag's cousin.

People will end up doing whatever they want, we can only offer our thoughts, opinions, and personal experiences.

Don't forget that cross-breeding does sometimes occur...my GT & blue acara spawned at least 3 times and basically claimed the entire tank (75g) as their own during that time



Theresa_M attached this image:


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There is water at the bottom of the ocean

first of all

Well I purchased a GT, a gold severum and a texas. Dont tell me to get rid of them, as this is what I want, and will be changing and figuring out what I want to do from here. thanks for all your help. Oh and I am getting a blue acara, they just didnt have any instock at the time

If you post a thread asking for advice, then you need to be prepared to accept the advice given. That doesn't mean you have to follow the advice that's given but you do need to be able to accept the opinions that you have asked for.

Now to your stock...the chances of a green terror and texas cichlid getting along together in a 55 gallon tank for life is incredibly slim. In fact about the only chance I can see of them getting along is if they formed a breeding pair and the odds of that are slim imo due to the fact that they're not very closely related to each other. You may be able to get by with a breeding pair of either one but keep in mind a 55 would be small for an adult pair of either one and that may increase aggression between the pair. Some of the other species that have been recommended (firemouth, severum, salvini, neets, etc.) would do much better in the 55 because they will not get as large.

Cali,

If you can find the species that used to be labelled Cichlasoma cutteri in the old Innes book (which is going to involve you in an interesting logistical search to put it mildly!) then this is a CA/SA Cichlid that is reputed to have almost none of the combative traits that are familiar to owners of Convicts and Dempseys.

I don't have the old Innes book so does the fish you're talking about look more like [link=this]http://www.cichlidae.info/gallery/picture.php?p=1258" style="COLOR: #000000[/link] one which is now known as Cryptoheros sp. 'cutteri' or does it look more like [link=this]http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/Cryptoheros/septemfasciatus-01.jpg" style="COLOR: #000000[/link] one which is sometimes called Cutter's cichlid but the latin name is Cryptoheros septemfasciatus. I don't have experience with septemfasciatus but sp. 'cutteri' is about as pugnacious as a convict but they don't get quite as big.

I'd steer clear of the Green Terror and the Texas Cichlid principally because of their adult size. These guys need a 125 gallon as a minimum, and that's for one fish.

That's just simply not true. A breeding pair of either species would probably be just fine in a 75 and a single specimen for sure would be fine in a 75. Sure a 125 would provide even more swimming space for them that sure would be nice, but not really necessary.

My personal recommendation for six juvenile Green Terrors would be a 12ft aquarium.

6 juvenile green terrors would be fine in a 55 for at least 6 months if not even close to a year. Sure once they start maturing they will need to be separated or moved into larger quarters but 6 juvenile GT's would be lost in a 12' aquarium.

Arghhh... i knew this would happen,... inkodinkomalinko... please dont be so hostile! TheresaM thank you...

Now for those of you who assume everything, more than likely I wouldnt be keeping the GT and the Texas for their entire lifespan. I can almost guarantee it. I know they are large fish. I know that they are agressive, and agreeing with jason, a 125 gallon tank is just a bit extreme!! even a 72 gallon BOW front would be fine, plenty of room for them to turn around in.
I am already planning into the future for what I want to do.
When i get fish, Sometimes i get bored with them and go for something different. I bet im not the only one who hasn't done this on this website!
Tuesday, like I said, I will be able to go and get blue acaras. I will probably take the GT and the texas back, (as the texas looks a bit funky anyway.) I will be keeping my gold severum, and my 2 firemouths. How many acaras can I do? My firemouths are about 4", maybe a little less as I have had them for over half a year. So, now that i can calm the fire, listen up
Can I do some dither fish with the above listed? What are good bottom feeders that wont get assaulted by any of the cichlids?

Last edited by Tanya81 at 18-Sep-2005 22:04

Last edited by Tanya81 at 18-Sep-2005 22:05

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

My favorite larger dither fish are giant danios. Good size, very active, and I like their coloring.

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There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Well, i got a school of black skirt tetras as dither fish. Im still trying to find blue acaras, not having much luck with that though. ]:| so hopefully someone is ordering them... But as of now, my male fire mouth is controlling the whole tank, even if i move stuff around!!!!]:|

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

All is still going good. I find it funny that my gold severum likes to chase my eartheaters around teh tank and chase the black tetras.....My male firemouth is still ruling the tank, although i swear he tries to kill the female by chasing her around all the time, but perhaps it is a weird way of courting, as they have bred one time in the past...

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

OK, some quick replies. Jason ...

First of all, I was only able to check one of those links because the second one kept throwing "Redirection limit for this URL exceeded". Sigh.

I'm a little surprised to read that Cryptoheros spilurus (one of two species known as a 'cutteri') is as territorially combative as a Convict ... I'll have to dig out my old Innes book, scan the page and mail it to you so you can hunt dow which fish this really is.

As for 6 juvenile Green Terros being lost in a 12ft aquarium, well, as juveniles they might be, but that statement of mine was made with long term planning in mind (i.e., setting up one aquarium in which they would live even when fully adult and large right from the word go). I based that suggestion on the premise that Green Terros become very heavily demanding of space when maturity kicks in, and that giving them that much space right from the word 'go' would be about as close as possible to giving them a 'glass pond' in which they could spend their entire lives without too much internecine warfare breaking out. After all, big Cichlids become combative - even the so-called 'milder-mannered' spceies - when space starts becoming a premium. If I intended to keep a big, tough Cichlid species like that long term, I'd deliberately plan for LOTS of space right from the start. This approach would have two advantages: one, the capital cost would be over and done with forever, and I wouldn't have to keep finding ever larger quarters for them as they grew, and two, in that much space, I reckon even bad tempered adults over 8 inches long would be able to stake out their own territorial regions without coming to blows too often. Particularly if the aquarium was furnished to break up lines of sight between the potential warring factions, and thus enable them to spend their lives without constantly looking over their shoulders at the opposition, so to speak. You may think 12ft of aquarium is over the top for juveniles, but give them a home that size from the word go, and [1] they'll grow better because they'll have plenty of room to do so, and [2] they might be less fractious as adults. Only might, of course, as there's no telling with some individual specimens (some might be complete pussycats, while others might be out and out psychotic berserkers intent on triggering World War III in the aquarium!), but give them acres of space from the start, and I would assert that this would go a fair way teward reducing combative tendencies even among the bruisers and the wanton thugs in the aquarium.

Needless to say, the picture starts to get complicated if a pair in that aquarium set about breeding. But then I'd still suspect that in a 12ft aquarium, the probability of out and out lethal warfare would be reduced somewhat.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

As for 6 juvenile Green Terros being lost in a 12ft aquarium, well, as juveniles they might be, but that statement of mine was made with long term planning in mind (i.e., setting up one aquarium in which they would live even when fully adult and large right from the word go).

ok and here's the problem with your thinking...999 times out of 1000 when someone buys 6 juveniles of the same species it is to grow them up and pair them off. once a pair is formed the remaining 4 are sold, traded or simply removed from the tank in one form or other. I've never heard of someone buying 6 juveniles of one species (of CA/SA that is) to keep them all to adulthood.

as for the "Cutter's Cichlid" to which you were referring, there are 2 species that are commonly referred to as Cutter's cichlid and (as I said in my first post) they are Cryptoheros sp. 'cutteri' and Cryptoheros septemfasciatus. C. spilurus is the jade eye or blue eye cichlid. I've never kept C. spilurus but from most of what I've read of them they are not close to convict-like territorial/aggressive. I have kept C. sp. 'cutteri' and they do rank up there close to convicts.

In that case, I'd probably make an unusual Cichlid keeper ... because I would want to hang on to all of the fish I bought, even if that involved logistical difficulties. And, I am interested in the possibility of being able to set up an aquarium in which several adult CA/SA Cichlids coexist with a minimum of combat episodes. People have kept single specimens of different species together to my knowledge, and very successfully: however, such an assemblage is highly artificial. Although my aforementioned assemblage is also artificial, it is a little less so, as the Cichlids would encounter conspecifics in the wild. Admittedly, they would have a LOT more space (i.e., a large stretch of river bed comprising a few million gallons in the case of Green Terrors) and there would be more individuals. But I'd give it a try if I had the space to site the aquarium safely and the funds to embark upon the project.

If the project ended up as an abject failure, and I discovered that any Green Terrors I bought simply would NOT live in such a setup without combat, regardless of how much money and space I lavished upon them, then I'd have one hell of a breeding aquarium for Panda Corys at the end of it

But seriously, I'd try this out. Because I'm convinced that it's possible to devisse a setup to allow several conspecific large Cichlids to coexist even in adulthood. It may take a LOT of effort and planning, but then, I've had something like 30 years in which to mull over this and pore over the collected wisdom of everyone from Herbert Axelrod to Sven Kullander, so I wouldn't be going into this project with my eyes closed


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

You said that you have experience with africans. New Worlds are a totally different ball game than africans. If you overcrowd new worlds you'll end up with a couple dead fish. Also it doesn't sound like your very receptive to our comments we told you good ideas and what are bad ideas yet you completely ignored us and went on ahead, but I guess its your tank and your choices be them good or bad.

ok kids! back to the original point! I have now picked up 3 baby blue acaras, very little but cute nontheless!! Any info from people who have HAD experience, as in owned them, not just read abou them, cause i can do that! Thanks!

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

Tanya, what is the current stock of the tank? going back and re-reading I'm gathering there are firemouths (not sure how many), 3 blue acaras and a school of black skirt tetras. what else is in the tank with them?

also, I can't believe I didn't catch this the first time but as to

I have firemouths what will be going in to that tank! I am going to give the little ones a while to get beefed up, high protien foods and then the firemouths will go in there.

be careful feeding high protein foods to your firemouths. some thorichthys can get bloat by overeating especially with high protein foods. I would generally consider firemouths to be a pretty hardy species, but I just wanted to bring it up so that you'd be aware of the possibility.

Yeah, well that was an over zealous statement! I obviously know better than that. I just mean, some bloodworms from time to time ad their basic diet is flake food with treats on the side. Im a good fish feeding person. Anywho. Current residency is as follows:
2 Firemouths
3 baby blue acaras 1" -1.5 at most...
school of 11 black skirt tetras, but im debating on returning them as they are boring and are taking up valuable space
2 demon earth eaters (geophagus daemon)
1 gold severum, about 2"(forgot to add to the list!)

thats about it
but the acaras are soo adorable, i hope, rather we tried to get 2 females, i know i have a male for sure, but it so hard to tell!

Last edited by Tanya81 at 30-Sep-2005 10:31

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

and it's a 55 gallon tank right? just beware that you will need to upgrade and split up the fish as they get bigger. the earth eaters (they are probably the more common S. jurapari not S. daemon but both are similar) will grow to around 12" or so and will do much better in a 75 gallon by themselves. the severum will also get big enough to look a little cramped in the tank but would probably be ok with either the firemouths or 1 or 2 acaras.

if you're not happy with the black skirt tetras as dithers you might check out some rainbows. there are some gorgeous ones that don't get too big for a 55. just be careful because there are some that get bigger to like 6" or so.

im fairly sure that they are the daemons....I"ll try to take a picture, the juruparis are not as colorful in pictures i have seen, so im pretty sure ...anyway, in the dr axelrods big atlas book, they look just like the daemons in there....

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

Alright: update i will have pictures of my geophagus daemon in the photo booth room, but like i said above accordign to axelrods freshwater encyclopedia, it is a geophagus daemon, so its kind of exciting to have them! very interesting and unique fish....as for the blue acaras, they are healthy and very adorable, eating their little hearts out. I think i may be getting rid of my firemouths, they just dont make the (rather the male) happy and peaceful, hes out for a huge territory.

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

IMO that tank is kinda messy. The fish in there are all agressive and will grow to large sizes. Try sticking to either one or two species before you start running into some serious problems.

Messy???? ummmwhat? i dont think you even know what is going on.... do you?

72 gallon bowfront:Tanganyikan Lake set up
75 gallon: A. Baenschi trio,Cyanotilapia Afra Cobwe(4), copadichromis trewavase, protomelas sp. tangerine tiger(breeding pair)

actually he does know what's going on...he's basically reiterating my point (I think) that I made in my last post that the stock you have in your tank will not work in the long run. there will be too many big fish in the 55 and you will need to either sell some fish at some point in the future, upgrade to a larger tank, or buy another medium sized tank (55-75) and split them up.