FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Don't worry............. I'm not going to ask how to save them.

It's just beginners excitement when their angels have their first batch of eggs.
I was just telling somebody today that they were only about half grown.......... guess I was wrong.

I have a pothos plant cutting in there & they laid them on one of the leaves. I'm not going to try & save them, but I understand why so many people do. I guess it's human nature to try & save life.

And last night one of my guppies had her babies, but I assume they all got ate. And my zebra danios have been laying eggs all along. Not bad for having hard well water.

In another life, I bred angels, discus, and other similar cichlidae in our incredibly hard tap. I don't think hardness necessarily affects these fish as much as reputed, since they've become so suited for domestic aquarium life.

I guess I have to agree noodles.

Our fish have come a long way since they were first domesticated. They've been through a lot & gotten used to a lot.

Not to rain on your parade but I found the only real downside to breeding in hardwater is that hatching rates seem to be much lower for some fish. I setup a special softwater tank for my rams because otherwise there was only around a 10% hatch rate whereas in my 5ph tank of RO water and peat granules it was closer to 95%. Most of the eggs were coated in fungus within a few days of being laid. They'll live happily, they'll grow, and they'll spawn but the eggs don't survive as well. Doesn't really apply to danios though. Lacking egg predators you can end up with a few hundred of those hyper little monsters. Also most fish will breed well before they are full grown so they may still be growing for some time yet.

It's ok sham......... I'm not having a parade.

This is a community tank & I'm not trying to breed anything.......... well, except some guppies to provide some live fry for the angels.

But I'm glad you commented on the eggs. If ever I do want to save some eggs from something I will know to prepare ahead of time now by trying to soften my water.

I have plenty of egg predators as my fish have learned to follow the danios around when they are spawning. And what they miss, the 9 corys & 1 pleco will find.

As my tank is new I'm going to leave it alone for awhile while I get used to the ropes of fish keeping. But someday, when I feel more confidant about it, I may just dig up all the old info. on how to (cheaply) lower my ph & safely keep it that way, as my readings are kind of high.
................
total hardness (GH) ppm only goes up to 300 on this kit & my reading is as dark as that picture

Alkalinity (KH) ppm only goes up to 300 also & mine is as dark as that

pH only goes to 8.4 & mine is as dark as that.
.................
But since my fish seem fine I'm in no hurry to try & experiment with my ph as I know that can do more harm than good............ I would rather wait till I was fully committed to the project so that I would do it right & stick with it, so that I didn't have any loss of fish during the process.

Are you saying you kept rams in hard water? If so, what kind of rams & what were your readings? I ask because if I ever get any new kind fish I was considering rams, as I hear so much good about them on this site & they are just beautiful for freshwater fish!

I have bad luck with rams but not due to hardwater. Finding healthy ones that don't die from parasites or bacterial infections is near imposible. I had some in the well water at my mom's house so 8.6 to sometimes near 9 ph with kh and gh around 18-20 and up to 24. Depends on the season. They survived fine after I managed to get 4 healthy blue rams but I probably lost another 3 to parasites within the first 2-3days of bringing them home. Over 2years I lost them all. The first got stuck when trying to go through a crack between rocks that was half his body length. The 2nd got stuck in my co2 equipment. The last 2 died of stress from my stepdad stomping past the tank and slamming doors.

Attempt at ram keeping #2 I had 2m and 1f healthy blue rams after months of searching for a female. I put them in my 55g for awhile which just had tapwater at the time. 8.2-8.4ph, 18-20kh and gh. When they got big enough to breed I moved them to a 10g, diluted the water to nearly 100% RO(kh-3), and loaded the tank with peat granules. 2 spawned, I removed the 2nd male and acclimated him back to the 55g. They had trouble raising their fry and I was pressed for space so after several spawns with hatching eggs but dead fry I moved them all back to the 55g to just let them practice. They spawned numerous times and were getting good at gaurding their eggs. They even managed to get 1 fry to hatch despite most of the eggs being fungused or eaten. Then recently my 55 was hit with a bacterial infection. I lost the female and extra male so I just returned the last male to the store for credit. Source of infection is unknown but tapwater is being suspected since the exact same symptoms have shown up before and the water company always increases the chlorine within a week of it showing up in my tank. My water is so horrible... If I could I'd use all RO since I don't even drink or hardly cook with the stuff. I'm glad I'm moving.

The store nearby has even had rams spawn in their tanks in the same tapwater. However due to cramped conditions the spawning pair went nuts and killed about a dozen other rams in the tank while trying to protect their eggs. The eggs never hatched and they sold the pair. Rams are very sensitive to ammonia-nitrates, infections(parasites are nearly guranteed with rams around here), and easily stressed but they don't seem to actually care about ph or hardness in the least.

I'm not going to try & save them, but I understand why so many people do. I guess it's human nature to try & save life.

Actually for me, the 100-150 dollars offered per
clutch of 75-100 angelfish fry at pea size was the
desire to save them.


Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
http://games.atari.com
Http://www.myleague.com/yahtgames

One of those perks to

Hardness is, of course, a general term. Whose to say what is or is not in the water? Ram broods for me were almost entirely fertile (I've discovered that if a batch is infertile to a significant extent, the parents will finish them off); of the two pairs I had, both were wild caught (rams aren't strictly blackwater fish, anyways--either species). The only species I can see really necessitating very soft water regarding hatching rates are forest pool spawning dwarf cichlids and other dry season spawners--basically anything that is an obligate blackwater inhabitant and is infrequently bred.

Wow.....what a response!

But sham I can't believe you finally ended up with one live healthy ram just to take him back to the store!

I would of kept him & even bought him a little "survivor" shirt.

Yeah, I read that rams were sensitive to water conditions, but that the Bolivian was more forgiving, so I was going to go with them. I'm still awaiting a good liquid test kit as my water says I have dangerous levels of ammonia & that is right out of the faucet....... so of course it says that for my tank too. But since they all seem to be fine, I don't know??

Last night my nitrate read at 40
but nitrite was 0

The ammonia kit was seperate....... new......& not outdated. I tried both tests on other peoples tanks & their tanks were fine though. So I don't know what's going on?? I'll find out for sure when I get new liquid test kits. If my fish kept dying or getting diseased or acted stressed I would probably be panicking, especially after seeing my readings. But all seems good for a couple mo.'s now. So guess this is just one of those little mysteries?

I had an angel fish with a feeler bitten off & was told that it would grow back if I had good water. It's 2/3 rds of the way grown back now. So...........go figure!??
.........................
Oh Sneaky! I would buy soft water & save the eggs if I could sell them for that much! Do you still do that!?
........................
noodles, did you have rams in hard water too?

I have rams that I got off of Aquabid in hard water. I've had 3 of them for months and they are doing awesome. They have spawned many, MANY times and I have about 20 of their babies growing out in a 10 gallon tank. I could have a whole lot more if I had my rams in a 20 by themselves....currently, they are in a 55 community with other spawning cichlids including angels and two species of Apistos. My gH is right at 300 ppm. IMO, the healthiest rams are only found online having been bred by other hobbyists. I stay away from LFS rams.

My angel spawn was successful, but I think the fry got eaten. I need to set up about 5 tanks to accomodate all my breeders.

---

~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

crazyred! Are you saying you are raising rams in my water conditions, minus my supposed ammonia content!? What kind of rams? Why are you raising them......... do you sell the fry?

Oh no.......... I see MTS raising it's ugly head!



But then I have a 55 g. also. Hmmmmmm
......................

Sham, I'm glad you're moving. Maybe you will have better luck with different water?

crazyred! Are you saying you are raising rams in my water conditions, minus my supposed ammonia content!? What kind of rams? Why are you raising them......... do you sell the fry?

That's exactly what I'm saying. My rams, German Blue Rams---BTW, have been spawning like crazy in my HARD water (300 ppm...no ammonia). I'm raising them because I rescued the eggs to see if I would have any success with hatching. My babies hatched and they look so cute. I've had success with 3 different batches so far, so all the fry are different sizes. I haven't got to the selling stage yet, they're all still fairly small. I'm getting ready to set up an 'egg' tank seperate from my fry tank because when I put the last batch of eggs in my fry tank, the babies ate their future brothers and sisters. I need an egg tank for the eggs to hatch and the fry to get a little size, then they can moved to the fry tank. I love breeding these guys, and I think I'm contributing to the hobby because these are healthy, tank bred rams....not the hormone juiced, weak variety that is found at most LFS's.

---

~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

I have actually heard the harder water
is better for egg hatch rates, and soft water
can be detrimental.

Most fish raised in captivity are tolerant of
nearly all water conditions. Its only in wild
caught specimens that you would have a problem
breeding or raising eggs.

My angelfish were breeding in tap water with a ph
of 7.8 and a gh of over 280 ppm (as high as my test
goes), and I had at least a 70-80% success rate
with eggs and fry.


Come Play Yahtzee With Me!
http://games.atari.com
Http://www.myleague.com/yahtgames

Well people........... this is all very interesting!

And you're raising Blue rams in hard water crazyred! I think they're the prettiest, but thought that if I ever decided to try any that I would have to try the Bolivian rams as I read that they were less sensitive to water conditions.

Right now my nitrate reading appears to be about 40 & nitrite about 0.

I've been up & down with my tank cleaning schedule trying to get it just right. Not doing enough, then too much. I've learned how to do it properly now, so maybe I can try & get that nitrate reading down to 0. Do you have any nitrate at all in your tanks crazyred?

But there is still my supposed ammonia problem, even from the tap?? I'll be glad when I get good liquid test kits. I wonder if there is anything else in well water that could register as ammonia on a test kit? This is the strangest thing! Even bottled water registers with high ammonia with my test kit, but two tanks of my relatives register with very little ammonia. Ahhhhhhh this is frustrating, especially since my fish seem fine.
...........................

WOW! NEW development! I just remembered seeing an old test kit for ammonia around here & went & tested my tank water. It came out with 0 PPM ! Wanting to test a straight source of ammonia I went into the bathroom & peed into the vial.
Is this a good test for ammonia?
Anyway, of course it came out slightly colored, but after adding the drops it REALLY came out colored & registered as 6-7 PPM for ammonia, as far as the chart went!

Sooooooooo maybe my NEW test kit for ammonia is defective. By golly! I think I've got it! ( imitation of a British guy on tv )

Well.......... thanks for listening guys........... I think you helped me solve my mystery!

And you're raising Blue rams in hard water crazyred! I think they're the prettiest, but thought that if I ever decided to try any that I would have to try the Bolivian rams as I read that they were less sensitive to water conditions.

Yep, my GBR's are gorgeous (see attached pic of daddy ram) and they breed like little rabbits. I think the key is to get rams that have been bred by other hobbyists. I know some folks have issues with paying $30 to ship fish, but sometimes it's just necessary. I wouldn't get GBR's at any LFS unless I could be sure they were purchased from a local hobbyist instead of a wholesaler that mostly like got them from a fish farm in the Far East. I got mine on Aquabid....usually some good deals there on rams.

Do you have any nitrate at all in your tanks crazyred?

My 55 is pretty heavily planted with stem plants mostly and with the PC lights I have I've never seen a nitrate reading over 5 ppm. Even if I forget to do my PWC that week, my plants keep everything under control.

Interesting story about the ammonia test....didn't you have any floor cleaner there? I might of tried that before the urine thing....

Attached Image:

---

~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

"noodles, did you have rams in hard water too?"

Yes, I have raised and bred both species in hard water, nterestingly enough, though, altispinosus seem to have a more difficult tme adapting to spawn n the harder water here in San Diego; they were first triggered utilizing 50/50 RO and tap, whereas the blues needed no such goading. Both, however, have since spawned multiple times in hard tap, bearing many, many fry. Similarly, as we speak, I've got a pair of hypancistrus L-66 spawning in a heavily melafix-dosed tank, if that's any testament to the over-emphasis of dissolved solids/solutions in water and fertility.

crazyred....... that pic looks familar. Did you post it already & say that he had extra long fins? He's gorgeous!

HA! I just can't away from these guys.............

I was just in chat with platy punk & he's getting some gold rams tonight!

Interesting story about the ammonia test....didn't you have any floor cleaner there? I might of tried that before the urine thing.

Yeah, I think I had a bottle of ammonia under the cabinet, but seeing as I had to go anyway, it just seemed easier.

if that's any testament to the over-emphasis of dissolved solids/solutions in water and fertility.

I think I'm beginning to agree with you noodles.

Bolivians are hardier than blues but that doesn't mean to hard water or ph. It's usually in reference to ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate or changing water conditions instead of water parameters like gh, kh, and ph. Blue rams are very sensitive to ammonia-nitrate and don't like changes in water parameters. Once settled into a tank with very low nitrates and no testable ammonia or nitrite they will spawn pretty much constantly irregardless of hard or soft water. But letting the tank go too long without water changes or rapid changes in ph will usually lead to their death quicker than many other fish.

crazyred....... that pic looks familar. Did you post it already & say that he had extra long fins? He's gorgeous!

Yes, I posted it in the photobooth section....just thought I would let you know that it's the same ram that is breeding in my hard water, and, yes, he does seem to be the long finned variety. Interestingly enough, his male offspring seem to have the same long finnage.

---

~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Ok Sham, that's what I heard....... that Bolivians were easier to keep. Well those are pretty fish too. Since I'm just a beginner & I still have some nitrates, then if & when I get some, I better start out with Bolivians.

I just read about them on this site. It's hard to tell the sex. If I got two (of whatever sex) & put them in my 55 with 9 cories & a pleco & angels & tiger barbs, etc. they would be fine right?

crazyred......... it looks like you got a good thing going there breeding long finned rams!
You may make some money at it yet!