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i recently put 3 bolivian rams into my 30 gal tank(the only other occupant is a pepper cory, had 3 other juli cories though they came from petco and didnt even make it 2 days, i should have known better than to buy from them with all the dead fish i saw in there (the pepper cory and rams came from a much better lfs and are indescribably more healthy)). getting back to the subject, it's still very early, but one of the rams seems to be clearly the dominant one of the group of 3 (when first introduced 2 locked lips briefly and the "winner" sent the loser off to stay near the other, where there was no aggression), i dont know their sex or how to tell, though 2 seem identical (and these are the two that locked up) the third seems less colorful and seemingly only has one black short "stripe" on it's side while the other two have 2 well defined marks). each now seems to have it's own space though the identical looking ones seem to show a little aggression when they encounter one another). i guess my questions are:

-is a 30G long large enough so that the dominant one doesnt harass the others too much/ large enough to keep one out of trouble if 2 pair? (there are major broken sight lines thanks to a large piece of driftwood and 2 clay pot caves along with a store bought open ended cave for hiding spots)

-would i be better off with a larger number, say 4-6 to disperse any aggression? or would i just potentially see more aggression in more places?

- do they like any kind of current? i have a powerhead on the tank now though nothing overly powerful by any means.

-the store doesnt have anymore peppered corys in stock but do have nice larger and active agassiz's cory's, being that they prefer groups would these guys be a good match for the pepper? theyre similar size (btw the rams pay the pepper zero attention and the lfs had kept these rams with some bronze cory's which might explain the tolerance if theyre not normally so accepting of cory's)

-and finally, what would be a good upper water column specie to add to a tank with these guys? tiger barbs? something active and colorful would be nice

thanks a lot for the time and any help, im sorry i rambled

The thirty gallon will be large enough as long as there is plenty of cover. You mentioned driftwood and pots, but plants would help provide even more hiding areas.

The more rams you have, the less time any dominant fish will spend attacking any one individual. Rams form a hierarchy amongst themselves, and though there will be bickering no matter how many you have, it will be more spread out with more rams. There is the chance that multiple pairs will form, and Bolivian rams (as with most or all cichlids) become markedly more territorial when in a breeding mode. Just be aware that the more rams there are, the more likely at least two will pair off.

They aren't fans of current, and aren't the strongest-swimming of fish. The current provided by your filter and powerhead will be enough.

It would be a good idea to wait for more peppered cories (Corydoras paleatus), seeing as Corydoras species do prefer like company. C. agassizii would not quite match up well with C. paleatus, as the colors, body profile, markings, and eventual size are all different. Though the lone paleatus might shoal with another species, it would greatly prefer other paleatus.

If you want to stick with South American species, you can look at some of the tetras. Many are colorful, and certain types are more active than others. I'm not a fan of tiger barbs and won't recommend them, especially as they don't quite fit the peaceful community mold. Maybe have a look through the profiles to see what fish interest you; the [link=Fish Finder]http://fishprofiles.com/profiles/#finder" style="COLOR: #808080[/link] should help a bit.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

To sex rams when they are young or at the lfs is difficult and inacurate. The best way to tell is by color the more colorful ones will be the males though at the lfs this is near impossible. You can also tell by the longer filaments present on the male. Even with all this it can be difficult to tell them apart mine is female but it took me a while to fiqure it out.
My ram likes current but only a little she often spends time near the air stone and the current from my HOB filter.
Almost all tetra's will work except bucktooths (or so I am told).

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

thanks a lot, very helpful, not sure why i was thinking tiger barbs as i did know they were nippy. ill do some searching for an upper water column tetra . i also think through researching a bit that i have 2 males and a female, i think im going to return to the lfs tomorrow and see if i can pick out another female or two and like you mentioned some plants which my tank is lacking right now. (i'll have to settle for fake until i can get more than a watt per gallon lol). i also see if i can get them to order some larger peppered cory's as i really like the guy i have, he's very active and friendly.

yes bcw cat, with a lot of staring i think ive been able to sex mine based on coloration, their behavoir toward one another (differing aggresion levels) and differences in fins.

as for the upper water column fish i was now thinking common hatchetfish as they like similar temps and appreciatte current (id move my powerhead from the upper-middle of the tank even higher, taking current off the rams and onto the hatchets, which ive always been curious about). gold danios also seem like an option and everything ive ever heard about danios is that theyre very hardy. any thoughts on these options (outside a super tight lid if i go with hatchets lol)?

thanks again

I have no expierence with hatchets but I would avoid danio's as they get boring. I would suggest a tetra of some sort as they can be very interesting to watch. That is just my opinion though so do what you want.

You can put in plants with only 1 wpg but I am not the person to ask about that as I am killing all mine now lol. Look in the live plant section of this website it is very helpful.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

Hi there,
first, a few things about sex identification in rams.
I noticed it was mentioned that the males have filaments, this isnt entirely true. I have 5 rams, 3 females and 2 males, and every single one of them has amazingly long filaments on both their tail fins and dorsal fins.
There is in my experience, only 1 way to know for sure which is which aside from watching them spawn.
Females when in breeding condition will have an bright bright pink belly. The male in breeding condition will have a orangey color belly and not very bright.
They are awesome fish. As Sirbooks said, they will always squabble for dominance, but the more you have, the less one particular fish will get singled out.
3-4 of them is a good number for a 30g tank.
As for upper water fish, I would go for the Hatchets.
They are unique, great schoolers, very intelligent, and very active. Much more interesting than danios- which are not always "top water" fish, mine often swim near the gravel. Hatchets are always upper water fish.
In regards to breeding, Rams dont always "pair up".
Mine Harem Breed. Just a few weeks ago, the dominant male dug a large pit, and 2 females laid eggs simultaneously and all 3 guarded the pit. Sometimes they pair off, but as for pairing for life as some enthusiasts suggest, I have yet to see mine pair off at all. The pairs vary, sometimes females with one male, sometimes with the other. Occassionaly 2 females will spawn together.
Here is a couple of pictures of mine, so you can clearly see the Pink belly I was mentioning earlier, as well, note the clear and distinct filaments on the female.
Female Guarding Eggs Note the Pink Belly


Dominant Male in Breeding Colors- note the Orange Belly


Another female in breeding colors- note the distinct filaments on dorsal and tail fins:
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I would like to add to the discussion about sexing. I believe that these rams can be sexed by venting, that is, comparing the sexual organs on the bottom of the fish between the tail and anus. Females have slightly larger vents than males, as theirs are used for laying the eggs versus depositing sperm. I have two Bolivian rams and think them to be a male and a female. The difference between their "vents" is noticeable, so I figure venting holds true with these cichlids as it does with so many others.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

very very helpful information sneaky and thank you for the pictures, i had thought that i figured out the sex of mine but now i am not so sure once again. i added 3 hatchets and really do like them as the upper column fish (more to come when the lfs gets more in) i also put in a 4th ram mostly becuase the guy at the store was relatively confident he could sex the fish and thought he knew the one i picked up to be a female. i'm going to try and snap some pics of these guys, im confident i can get good pictures of 3 out of the 4, the 4th makes his/hers home behind driftwood. ill try and post these pics later if i can get decent ones

not a premium member so i cant post the pics... all four of mine seem to have an orange belly. i tried using photobucket.com just now to post the pics, never have before so im not sure if this will work but hopefully it did:

http://photobucket.com/albums/d68/JamesSam/Rams/

2 of the pics are fuzzy, especially of the guy who likes to lurk in the back behind the wood, he was tough to photograph

Last edited by Ghost22 at 13-Nov-2005 12:00

i posted 12 more pictures of these guys to photobucket and got much better shots of the 2 which i only had blury grabs of earlier, if anyone can help sex them now it would be great.

url- http://photobucket.com/albums/d68/JamesSam/Rams/

Hi there,
Looking at your pictures, I am unable
to sex all the fish, however,
Picture 6, is definetly a Female. You can clearly
see the rounded Ovipositor protuding.
Picture 7 is clearly a male, you can clearly see the
short pointy papillae is visible.
In Picture 10, the fish at top is Male, and
the fish below is Female. You can clearly
and visibly see the difference in their "equipment".
These are probably the same 2 as mentioned above.
Very good looking Rams by the way!
Start feeding them frozen bloodworms and supplementing
with algae wafers regularly, and before long
you will find them spawning.


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that's great to hear, one of these days hopefully ill notice these differences you pointed out lol, in fact i think im off to stare at the pictures and fish until i do.

for food i have bought them frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp and also algae wafers and some other kind of smaller sinking wafer, they seem to like it all aside from the brine shrimp, though theyve only had been given it twice so far so i guess it's early to say, thanks again

hate to be a bother but if you had a spare minute to describe where i should look on the fish to see the "Ovipositor" and "pointy papillae" i would really appreciatte it, sadly i havent a clue where or what these are

Those are the sexual organs I mentioned in my above post. They are located between the tail fin and anus of the fish, and can be seen sticking down from the bottom of the fish's body. They're fairly small and are white, you should be able to see them pretty easily.

Last edited by sirbooks at 13-Nov-2005 21:01

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Thank you sirbooks finally someone has a way to accuratly sex rams. (now off to check mine)

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons