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hey guys,i was at my local getting some supplys,when i seen that in there texas cichlid tank,they must have had about 30,but i think ive got a pair,becasue in the tank,the 2 ive got now,they are all coloured up dark black underneth them(this is a sign of spwan with texas,the midnite black colour)but i had to trade up my fh to do it,so the 2 texas are sharing the 89 gal with my fh(divider in place ofcourse)intill 2morro,then after all this time im finally trading up my female fhi will miss her greatly),but to be honest,ive had enuff of trying to pair her up,and she just kept on flogging everything,plus i do have my other pair of fhs,but they arent like the one im talking about,so by 2morro afternoon,the 2 new texas will have a 89 gal to them self,now that the killer fh will be gone,i was thinkiing about giving my pleco a upgrade and moving him into the 89 with the 2 texasor the blue acara pair i have,do yous think they would be ok,in with the texas...
also besides the darken black belly,and the hump on the male,do you guys know of any other way to sex these guys
cheers...

Congrats on the texas thats awesome. I hope they make you alot of babies. I personally wouldn't put the blue acaras in with the texas. I don't think would put up a good fight if the texas ever decided to breed. I had a pair of blues awhile ago and they weren't too aggressive even when breeding. And the pleco should do fine in there and probably would love the extra room.

Yup, that black under the chin says let's see a movie then go for coffee.

Good luck.

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

While watching their behaviour over time look at size in relation to each other. Have to be housed together for a while to see who outgrows the other. Hump on male not all that ounced I found.

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

I had a pair of blues awhile ago and they weren't too aggressive even when breeding

Hokese and I have the largest and most aggressive strain of blue acara out of the three regional morphs available from wild, in terms of temperament they are damn near like convicts, and if anything a little heavier. I believe he has a tank seperator on standby. lol. Blue acaras vary so much depending on region of collection or less than perfect raising conditions of the fry, you wont believe it, you get calm weedy ones,and sometimes they grow into fat pale blue cruisers with very little aggrerssion, but these particular specimens are like battletanks. More green terror than blue acara in a way.

Consequently id be a little nervous about putting a plec between them, my breeding pair took a shot at an adult gibbie and did him some real damage in a single day. Add the texas into the equation id be very nervous about putting a plec in between these two aggressive species.

well the texas are a pair for sure,im watching them gaurd there first batch of eggs,plus at the other end of the tank,my blue acaras have brought there batch of fry out for the first time,they are all swimming around,ive decided just to leave the pleco where he is in the 55gal.between these 4 fish,who are all spawing,he will get harrased or beaten up,so i put a small bn in there instead,and hes been fine they dont mind him,he just hangs under the big piece of dw with the anubias on it,so hes happy,as for my ba not being aggressive,sorry mate as long hair said,our ba are just plane out bigger and nastyer than the normall ba,even thoo the texas have spwaned,the ba are still in charge by far,untill the texas spwaned,they were running when the 2 ba came near them,even now gaurding there eggs,the ba are still more aggresive then the texas,when they cross paths they flare up and go back and forth towards each other,then my ba male will just charge in and nip the texas,and god help the texas if they cross the line the ba call theres,its a team attack,mum and dad both come flying out to get rid of them,as long hair said,the better strain of ba is alot nicer,but much more nasty too,well think about my 2 that i just told you about,they are only sub adults,on there very first spawn,and they are holding back a spawning texas pair.but depsite all this,they are getting on fine,plenty of space,and its like they already know to stay away from each other ends,also they have been GREAT with the new live plants,the small bn has done more damage than the 4 cichlids...so yeah im happy

Weird isnt it, on paper it would never work, but when you actually own the fish and give it a go, it works fine. Just goes to show, theres so many people out there writing info who have either never had the fish, or the tanksizes theyre quoting, because even when you read species accounts in proper literature they never quite describe the actual events you get in reality, often the average of behaviour is totally different to what youll see described in even well respected tomes. Personally I think its down to lazy keeping, nothing bigger than 30 gals, and bare tanks because it seems easier to make blanket rules about cichlids. When you really get into it and start using real observation theres nearly always another way to create a more interesting tank and species mixes for cichlids. Thing is, to test it first, and not get too abstract about it.

Trouble is, now youve got blues and texas together people will automatically extrapolate you can do other cichlid combos with the same two species of fish, and that doesnt always work, out, in fact it usually doesnt. Both these species can be highly violent. Fishkeeping isnt a game of extrapolation, but of experience I guess.

well said lh,i aggree 100%,i would not even consider these 4 fish in anything under the 89gal ive got them in,and even that,once they get bigger,they will be upgraded to the 206gal,by the time we move!and if these blues werent nasty like ours are,i would never mix these 2 pairs,i mean you know what our blues are capable of,like i said above,they are in charge of a spawning texas pairive never herd of that,but like you said,ours are like convicts,even worse,cause the blues get to a good robust size.i would never keep any of these fish in a small tank,you are so rite about being lazy,and the poor fish pays for there lazyness,look at the poor strain of blues the shops sell compaired to mine and yours,they dont even look the same!in terms of full grown,the texas and the ba,are still small,and they went straight into the 89gal!as for people thinking hes done it,so i must workthats is the biggest no no in fish keeping,you have to be willing to give it a go,and be PREPAIRED,i spent 5 days making the divider,"just in case",as i only really keep the big nastys,ive found i need them(dividers),but,i havent needed it YET,but,with these 4 fish,aggression could break out at any time,but if it does im ready,i pity any blue acara thats not like ours that get put in with texas,they would be KILLED,outrite,even as nasty as our bas are,in say 6 months time,my money will be on the texas being in charge,they get way bigger than the ba,as you know,id probly even have to move the ba out at a later date,but for now,with all 4 of them spawing,they are getting on very well,the odd territory check,and thats it...i actully think there mite be some nuetral space in the middle of the tank,because i was just watching my male ba,and the female texas,scrounging around in the middle of the tank,and they werent bothered by eqch other,and this is also where the bn lives,and they counlnt care less about him

mmmm,something went wrong,when i went to bed last nite all was fine then today,there is not 1 babie or 1 fry leftthe whole lot are gonethere is no aggression between the fish,execpt,the male texas is harrasing the feamle texas,but there spawning colours(the dark black)has completely gone,even the blue acaras have nothing left,so i dont know where they all wentand id say the spawning is over,because all morning they have all been in and out of each others spawn sites,its almost like they dont care bout each other now.and geez the small bn,is really staring to chomp on my plants

Probably just re-ingesting eggs, they probably figure the fry have no chance of survival so close to fish predators, on both sides. Either that or the BN has been enjoying himself through the night. I think for successful breeding theyd have to be seperated. I generally pull a pair out to a seperate aquaria for breeding efforts. Doesnt mean the cichlids are fighting though. The fry would probably be killed by the other species when they started to wander and the parents might not want to go through the fighting necessary to protect them. They just figure its easier to eat the eggs and be ready to breed within two weeks on the offchance the other species isnt still in close proximity in that time. Ive had acaras do that when other breeding pairs are present, and texas cichlids have a similar mental take on things. Try putting the sperator in next time eggs are laid, might do the trick, though they may still guage proximity of other cichlids from the hormones in the water.

mmm,yeah i mite wack it in if i get some more eggs,but im not real worried,i didnt really get texas to breed,i just wanted a pair,ive found pairs just get on better,with less aggresion,and as for the bn,im spewing on him,the little S%&#,but atleast the 4 cichlids are getting on,witch is what i wanted,so i cant really complain,but if the bn,dosent pull up on my plants,hes going rite back into the 55gal..
with the bn,i just dont understand it,he gets lettuce,worms,pellets,shrimp pellets,vegie waffers,plus whateva else he scabs up,and he is still eating my plants.how much can 1 small bn eat?

well i think i mite have spoken to soon,the bas are cleaning there site again for the second batch,all the signs are there,coloured up,shooing away the texas,and the bn this time too,and they have dug 2 seperate pitsit makes me wonder why they ate the first batch,only to get ready to lay another batch,like 2 days later
im not guna bother with the divider,as i said i didnt really get the bas or the texas to breed,the divider i made,was incase bad aggresion broke out between the bas and the texas,but as i said,its like they know not to cross the line.so if the fry survive,good on em,if not....bad luck for them

booom,more eggs againwonder if they will dine on this batch

Well if they do hatch you probly will need that divider, my lot defend fry to the death. Should see em kick into the gravel cleaner. Im amazed they dont hurt themselves, you can really feel some serious impacts hitting the end of the tube.

my male does the attack on the vacume,the female only does it,if i come real close to the site,but at the moment,the 2 ba are still shooing the bn and the texas away,the site is clean and the pits are dug,and there colours are glowing bright so any day now,id say they will lay there eggs,i know what you mean,by how nasty these guys are,as you said they deffend the fry to the death,at the moment,its all pretty calm,its like the texas are just keeping at there end,and as long as they stay there the bas are happyalso lh,do your bas do the team attack,ive watched mine closey,when there were in the other tank,they started to clean a site in there ready for a spawn and started the team attacks on my gt male,i think because of hes larger size,they both figured out,that it would take the both of them,to hold him off,and it worked!what my male would do,is lip lock with the gt male,and the female,was nipping his sides and tale fin,plus im pretty sure she was even trying to nip at his eye,no jokeand that was my old flowerhorns best KILLING techique,rip out the eyes,or eye,then the fish cant see,easy kill!so yeah they really had the aggression in the 55gal,but in the 89gal,i think the extra room,and less fish,plus a much bigger spawn site,has calmed them down a bit,plus the plants and dw are breaking there line of sight,dont get me wrong,the are still in well in charge of the texasbut nothing like in the other tank.do you think this is why they are a bit calmer in this tank longhair,and i have to admit,these 2 fish,are 1 of the SMARTEST pairs ive ever had,they are just so intelligent...longhair what would you rate your bas at,out of 10 for being intelligent

Out of other fish, gotta be around a 9 out of ten. Ive even had one male and 2 females abandon the pair bond ethic, overcome their differences, and creche the eggs and fry of both females and work as a team of three in defending the nest. It did break eventually with one female getting kicked out after 3 weeks, but the remaining pair raised her fry as well as their own with no persecution. Their behavioural changes according to circumstances are amazing, and im assumming it goes well beyond primordial instinct. Now thats not common, and most people trying to put same sex acaras in the same aquaria will probably just get fighting, but its happened for me twice now.

Seen them use body style and movement to influence fry behaviour, its a corralling skill, seen at least 3 courtship routines.

Perfect long term memory even from tiny specimens,(even fry I raised ive visited months later in a LFS have ignored other people and recognised me,and begin coming up,crowding in near frenzy, immediately begging for food, and this isnt just sentimentality on my part, they remember those goods feeds! The raiser of the fry can have their image imprinted into a baby acara as surely as their own parents images are, just like with baby birds, im utterly convinced of it. I am a provider of an optimum food souce, they want to grow fast, and they do remember) , partner assessment of each other when protecting fry, owner recognition, breeding pit governance in the early days of fry raising that work to combat localised fungal issues and ensure the fry get fresh aufwuchs,also pits dug deliberately to trap food from the flow, chewing large foods into small dusty sizes for the babies,spread deliberately over a pit,even if the food isnt directly suitable for the fry, Im guessing they do it because it will promote the production of algaes and protozoa, and therefore be a source of aufwuchs and infusoria for the developing young. They really do seem to practise some level of environmental management on a food management basis, and the older they get, the more they do it.

Then theres guarding that food from other fish, arrangement of plants away from the nestsite to provide clear defensive vision, and selection of partner based on how effective they are at fry defense. Further still they assess their own fry for fitness and eat or keep eggs at will according to present threat levels and their own physical ability to handle those issues. A young pair may eat eggs and not consider fighting for them worth it, an older bigger and much more formidable pair will breed and take on allcomers. Theres even divorce proceeding for when one partner doesnt believe that the other is doing a sufficient job or represents a threat to eggs and fry, particularly among males, yet , at a later date the same partner may be accepted again or replaced, they understand potential, and behaviour on certain occassions, and they do seem to give each other second chances based on potential for change, or the understanding that a different day may bring a different set of circumstances and behaviour in a partner, possibly even a decision made based on their ability to control a partner, something that for instance, ive seen angels loathe to do.

Combine all that with precleaning nestsites, which are of course selected out of many options for suitability (bear in mind these fish can lay on anything, plants, rocks, glass, horizontal or vertical) the kind of calculating brain it takes to use teamwork in defence of an area, and some real team fighting skill based on who can take what (ie , I can hold the lips a few seconds, you get round ther and damage the SOB), quite simply this is tactics, extrapolative calculation of surroundings, and interpretation of mood and intent, and even efficiency in other fish.

Gotta put them ahead of a lot of higher order organisms like some reptiles, amphibia, and even a few primitive mammals. Proper smart for a fish. Incredibly efficient for a fish, and therefore never a fish to be released into an environment it didnt evolve in. I can well imagine this blue acara displacing other fish easily, causing extinctions, especially when combined with its formidable breeding potency.

Great, immensely tenacious fish, but almost a self contained curse when you get the care right, much as convicts can be. What to do with 300 fish after a single spawn , all with that potential and a hefty dose of natural aggression....well, youd better have some real tankspace.lol. Im scrubbing eggs regularly now, simply put, a single good owner can flood the immediate area of supply to all local fish shops.

Now I cant really tell you how much of that lot is instinctive or literally calculated by an intelligent mind, but the sheer variability of tasks, all of which have to be used in a correct context or circumstance, with no biological trigger effect on the fish directly must surely mean that many of these decisions are taken intelligently. Fish with 3 second memories. Bah. Gotta laugh at how little people know sometimes.

another good lot on info mate,well said,its amazin how smart these guys arealso its a shame not every1 can look after them to there full capacitylike we do,as you would have done by now like i have,flooded the lfs with babies,i gave the last 2 batches away!(thats why im not concerned with fry at the moment)but alot of those great babies will end up dead,or not fed properly,and end up 1 of the duds..some people think your crazy when i tell em my fish remember me,i couldnt aggree more with you longhair,my bas,love me,but if anyone else comes near,forget it..yeah you gotta love these fish,just 1 more thing,how do they comunicate,like i mean,how would my 2 work out the team attack,ill keep the lips busy,while you get around the and damage the SOB,as you put it,i like that 1

Just like any other predator, its all worked out with trial and error when young. Blue acaras start sparring with each other by 2 and a half months, little disputes over food etc, and thats in a shoal of 200 plus baby cichlids while still with their parents from which they may watch and learn a technique or two. A good learning ground for combat technique. I assume the male being the larger will take the direct frontal attack as best he can, and much of that is liplocking ritual , probably instinctive , partially a genetic imperative, and the mate provides persecutory support, damaging the rival so that her mate can break the lock and turn the fight around asap even against a bigger opponent. When an opponent is blinded or gill and fin damaged the lock will be forcibly broken, and the blue acaras then go into full persecutory mode, ending the challenge with injuries intended to cripple rather than exhaust. Acaras in particular go for eyes and fins, jewel cichlids for example , tend to go for the centrepunch bruising the other fishs midbody with the intention of quick shock, muscular damage and death, oscars and big firemouth relatives will go for the de-tailfinning moves and aft body chewing,often combined with scale removal and nips,oscars in particular are not above shaking a fish to death if they can geta good grip. Jaguars, midas, terrors, and flowerhorns usually try complete suboordination and maiming by crunching the enemy with repeated bites into the substrate, sometimes the option for the opponent to escape is not considered. Convicts do the temper thing and go for multiple small wounds anywhere. Style of going for the win and enemy destruction vary species by species.

They just put spar into practice, and are used to group combat. A smaller fish will undoutedly lose in a lip fight with a bigger species, its a test of strength that allows combat without immediate death, and acaras use that ritual to then press home an advantage with their bonded partner. Youll notice when they are confronted with a pair of other aggressive cichlids they can no longer use that advantage, and usually the males of one species fight the males of the other, and the females will lockfight in the girls version. Thats one of the fundamental reasons cichlids pair bond, to ensure success against the similar sized lone predator, a pair has a real advantage, and a very good chance of protecting young.

Even fight initiation is different according to opponent. Blues for example will head shake pre-empting and after a quick fight, their posture and fins become arranged for linear targeting of the opponent, with a partner , multiple shakes can indicate readiness to mate, but with a cichlid opponent they send a single tremor through the body and enlarge themselves, (like ol bruce lee cracking his neck,and firming his muscles lol)then the head goes down, and they lock lips in an upward but short sweep.

Against a non cichlid opponent there is no warning given, ritual is abandoned the body posture doesnt change and the acara will pick at its victim directly, as if its casually picking at food, often going directly for eyes and fins.

So simple I think there doesnt need to be a great deal of communication when jointly attacking something. Males and females hold position on the aggressorm and the shake warning is given, and theres back and forward swimming, like sumo looking for the best moment to engage. The male , generally biggest takes the lock on, and the opposing cichlid nearly always engages the stronger opponent, knowing thats the one you have to lock down, or take some damage. On seeing the lock occur , the female needs no ritualised combat and goes straight for injury of the opponent, as she would during predation or persecution of non cichlid fish. Indeed the male is protecting her and allowing her to attack by holding the enemys lips.

In cichlid divorce, the pair may well have liplocked in the past, and in most cases the male is far superior in strength to the female anyway, and often if he is going to attack her he will go straight for the bodyparts avoiding the lock. Occassionaly though the female will invite a lock or sometimes casually bite the male even during the raising of a batch of fry to test the partner is still awake, and vibrantly strong. If he fails to respond with either complete indifference (my big males prefferred technique - he lets her bite him and shrugs it off "you aint nothing wumman, stop buggin me.lol" and produces a lock that fails to impress, she may well doubt his strength and try to eat the eggs or push him off the nest. Usually though, its she who fails the line of sight defense techniques, and since the male is so strong, and she e to killing fry, often it is he who doubts she , and kicks her off the nest, no liplocking challenge issued, and he straight out bites her until she moves. Ive had to rescue her a couple of times.

The more you watch the more complicated it gets.

Obviously not a perfect choice therefore, for the average community tank.lol. Not much can stand against that. Could also be why a lot of the commercial breeder fry arent too great at fighting or keeping in competitive form and condition. I strongly suspect breeders are taking blue acaras away from parents and their neonatal shoal too early. Personally I think a blue acara is supposed to be dominant, supposed to be aggressive, and often lacks something about the will to survive and also lacks something in adaptability to aquarium life without those formative experiences. I think even some fish should be given their proper childhood, a scrappy, aggravating childhood though it may be. That period of temperance shapes the adult fish to come.

Acaras are always variable in temperament, but when ive seen them at their best, theyve done their share of sparring with their siblings, theyve stayed with their parents until its really time to go around month three, theve been fed well, almost excessively, they gone through the first year of bad temper due to raging hormones, and then finally at true maturity their intelligence and common sense has led them through the worst of the aggressive behaviour to a point where their dominance and aggression has structure, meaning, and is focused on what they do best which is finding a good tough mate, and breeding. They become confidant dominant instead of an annoying rank fighting aggressive. Then after year two, keeping plants, other big fish and good fry all become very possible, the fish retains its dominant but happy blues and stripes colouration all its life, the build is muscular , pair bonds last longer, they become very keeper focused indeed, and you finally achieve a semblance of behaviour and stability for them that nature intended. Large aquarium needed of course.

Im at that point where if I see a very calm pale blue acara Im actually worried about it behaviourally, even if its a large specimen, and wondering how to correct it. You see theres what some people have, and then theres what we know they should be. Its about trying to get your fish to reach its potential. You cant fight the nature of the beast, you can only subdue it and lessen its life quality. Keeping any big aggressive cichlid is about keeping that wild streak exactly where it is, and learning to cope with and live with that. Cant do that with a lone fish in a little tank, cant do that underfeeding, and cant do that taking fry from parents too early. Cant do that by placing a dominant fish in an enclosed space where its suboordinated by larger species. Thats what the peak end of fishkeeping is about, allowing the fish to be themselves, take their proper position in the scheme of things, and finding out where the faults in captive care lie, and correcting them. IMHO too many people keep cichlids that have been unnaturally raised badly, kept stupidly suboordinated and fed crap. Its not the way forward.

Think of all the keepers who get it wrong at both ends, bettas in tanks so small they can never have a social life, through to malawi keepers in crazy overstock, and all the nutter aggressive cichlid keepers that applies to. There are many, many, many. Good fishkeeping is about timing, and finding a place that fish can express themselves in without getting inhumane about it. To do that you have to know the fish, and indulge its freedoms. Theres no rules when you get to fish this intelligent, all has to be worked out as you go, and that means watch the fish for their potential. Just because some "web pro" says you can stop fish killing each other with overstock principles or dithers or subliminating their natural behaviour doesnt mean you should do it.

Whats the point in keeping fish of personality, if you never see it? There is and always has been another way for those with the wit to see a way to do it.

dam i love them big posts,all that infonow i know you love the blues like i do,another thing,with the blues like ours,its a shame there not all like that,apart from how nasty the better strain is,they get to no and TRUST there owner much ,much more,i couldnt tell you the last time my blues didnt eat from my hand,there always the first 1s waiting,and when the lid comes off,usally the male has taken the half block of worms b4 it hit the water,everthing is handfed to them.having these blues yourself you know what i mean lhbut if its not daddy at dinner time,theyd rather starve,than take the chance on being caught.very snart fish,i aggree

Ok, this is interestng in that I was always led to believe that BA's are relatively peaceful and even when breeding were not that bad. Also how big are the texas in relation to the BA's? Texas are known for being 'crazy' and extremely agressive taking on much larger, powerful fish then they are. I wonder if the BA's are succesful at this time because the Tex's are not at full potential yet. I understand that you have a different type of BA than most but I would like to see if the dynamics of the tank change in the next year.

BTW are you happy with the swap of the FH?

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