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Jason, although you are right, I didn't want to go as far as you did, hence the GENERAL GUIDELINES in caps. I didn't feel like make a long post but rather give a very general overview of the 2 kinds of cichlids that are mostly refered to. I believe that it gives enough information to the member's question for him/her to investigate and then make a choice based on what he/she prefers.

The question was very general and I gave a very general answer. I could, like you, have gone way further and divide it like you did and even more further by subdiving some of your categories as they are quite general as well. For example, the Lake Malawi can be divided in 2 : cost dwellers, and haplo who live more in the deeper waters and are for most part carnivores and should not be kept with the mbuna community. A common mistake seen many times.

CC

Jason;

I see. Thanks for clarifying that up for me. As far as cichlids go, I'm not too great with CA species, so I'd probably have screwed it up anyways. However, I do know for a fact that there are several riverine neotropical species throughout the Arabian penn. that inhabit brackish water regularly. Thanks for the correction.

Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 18-Jan-2006 21:28

thanks!!!
What sized tanks do they need??

Bettachris answered this the only way it can be answered. there are well over 1,500 cichlid species. there are some species that grow no larger than 2" and can be kept in smaller tanks, and there are others that grow over 3 feet in length and are best suited for huge tanks or ponds.

ok back to his question, tank size depends on what kinda of cichlid u want?

that article you linked to is rather vague. on the Madagascan cichlids it says

Madagascar (17 valid species, some also in brackish water)

and on the Cuban cichlids it says

Cuba and Hispaniola (4 valid species, some in brackish water)

and then further down it states

A few Neotropical cichlids are recorded from brackish water conditions.

though doesn't go on to anything else on the matter.

Now, I can't and won't comment on the Madagascan cichlids because I am not very well read on them and have very limited experience with keeping any Madagascan species. There is a book available by Jean-Claude Nourissat and Patrick de Rham that I will pick up some day and then I can comment more on this cool group of cichlids.

However, the species from Cuba and Hispaniola I can speak of. The article you linked refers to 4 species from Cuba and Hispaniola. These 4 species are the 4 Nandopsis species, N. tetracanthus, N. haitiensis, N. ramsdeni and N. vombergae. I pulled up the fishbase profiles of these fish to see what it says about the waters where these fish are naturally found.

Their profile of Nandopsis vombergae says that this species is "freshwater" and found in "Central America: Yaqui River basin in the Dominican Republic." Under Cichlasoma ramsdeni it says " Environment: benthopelagic; freshwater; pH range: 8.5; dH range: 9".

Of Nandopsis tetracanthus it says "Environment: benthopelagic; freshwater; brackish" and further down it states " In fast-flowing rivers as well as in lakes, preferably among plants. Can be found in brackish river mouths." Of N. haitiensis it merely says " Environment: benthopelagic; freshwater; brackish" but under the "Ecology" section it says "Inhabits lakes and streams."

None of this is evidence enough to say that:

Furthermore, several species of Madagascans and Cuban cichlids are also primarily brackish water fish,

None of the species from Cuba and Hispaniola are primarily brackish. they may found occasionally in brackish river mouths, but this does not mean that they live their full lives there and more importantly it doesn't make that particular species "primarily brackish."

As for people who keep these species in their tanks...I have never heard of anyone keeping the Cuban cichlid (N. tetracanthus) in brackish water. There have been some mixed reviews from hobbyists who've had success with keeping N. haitiensis with some salt in the water, though there are just as many who keep them fine in pure freshwater.


Last edited by Jason_R_S at 18-Jan-2006 17:18

Last edited by Jason_R_S at 18-Jan-2006 17:20

You can check most of it out on fishbase.

EDIT: here we are--
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/FamilySummary.cfm?ID=349

Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 16-Jan-2006 22:06

There are also some Asian fish mistakenly refered to as chichlids. My LFS tried to sell me a badis badis (chamelian fish) as a SA dwarf.

Last edited by djtj at 16-Jan-2006 19:59

Furthermore, several species of Madagascans and Cuban cichlids are also primarily brackish water fish, and a few species scattered throughout the neotropics are recorded to have populations living in exclusively brackish water environments.

just curious...where did you come across this information? do you by chance have any links or did you read this in books (if so what ones cause I'd like to check them out).

All species of Etroplus are brackish water fish, as are Iranocichla, and Sarotherodon. There are several scale-biting species down along the middle eastern out-jutterance that are reportedly almost fully marine fish, but that's still up for debate. Furthermore, several species of Madagascans and Cuban cichlids are also primarily brackish water fish, and a few species scattered throughout the neotropics are recorded to have populations living in exclusively brackish water environments.

Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 14-Jan-2006 11:50

i dont know anyting about chichlids but are they fresh or salt water?

The following is only as GENERAL GUIDELINES : You can divide them in 2 categories : African and South American. Africans live mostly in Alkaline water ( pH above 7.0 ) while South Americans live in acidic water ( pH below 7.0 ). Both of them are usually aggressive fish

this is very general, in fact it is very, vveeeeerrry general and in fact not entirely correct. if you want to divide cichlids into categories to make generalizations, then you really need to go much further than just 2 categories even if you're only talking about the water conditions in which they're found. If you want to divide cichlids into categories and make some generalizations, then I would go with no less than this:

South American--This category should even be divided into at least 2 groups based on the water conditions in which they're found. The first group would be Coastal South American fish which are found in more neutral to even somewhat basic water. These fish will be fine in ph from 7.0 to upwards of 8.5 or so. I don't even know what my ph is because I've only ever tested with test strips which only read up to 8.6 and my ph is at the top of the chart so it could even be up in the 9's. That being said I have a pair of A. festae (a South American Coastal cichlid) that I've had for almost 4 years and they are doing great. They've spawned many times (though never raised up the fry), have grown fine if not a bit slowly and have fantastic colors. The other group would be Inland South American fish. To generalize you could say that these fish are found in and will thrive in an acidic to neutral ph.

Central American--These fish are found in waters with a wide range of ph that usually doesn't go below neutral but can go as high as you'd find in one of the African rift lakes. Most Central American fish will thrive in anything from 7.0 up to 8.5 or even higher. Most of the fish I keep are Central American and do wonderfully.

African Rift Lake--These fish are found in the 3 Rift lakes in Africa...Lake Malawi, Lake Tanganyika and Lake Victoria. While, for purposes of personality and behavior you would have to divide these into many sub-categories, for the purpose of what water conditions they are found they can be grouped into this one category. The water these fish are found in is very alkaline (8.5 or higher) and very hard. They will thrive in very alkaline and very hard water.

West African--These cichlids are found mostly in rivers in Western Africa where the water conditions are much closer to what is found in Inland South America. These fish will thrive in slightly acidic and softer water than the Rift lake cichlids. Granted, tank raised specimens will do fine and can adapt to just about any water conditions though.

European--These would be the chromides and these are the only ones that I'd consider to be a truly brackish fish. I will be honest though, I have never researched chromides so I honestly don't know what the water is like where they come from, but based on the fact that it's brackish I'd venture to guess the water is at least moderately alkaline and medium hardness.

Now, if you want to group cichlids into 2 categories, then these 2 categories should be 1) Tank raised and 2) Wild Caught. Tank raised fish (especially those purchased at an lfs) should be kept in the water to which they were spawned and raised in, even if that doesn't match the waters where they are naturally found. A good percentage of the fish you find in the lfs (there are exceptions though of course) are so far removed from the wild that changing your water conditions to keep them in something closer to their "natural water" could be more harmful than beneficial. On the other hand, Wild caught fish have of course been taken directly from the wild so the water in their tank should be as close as possible to what they came from in the wild.

Now, to the fresh/brackish debate. As I said above, the only cichlids that I would consider to be truly brackish fish are the chromides. there are many other central and south american fish that may drift into brackish waters for a period of time, but they do not live their full lives there. if they did live their full lives in brackish water, then keeping them in fresh would cause their health to decline and they would most likely not live past a few years. for example, the red terror (A. festae) is sometimes found in brackish water and have even been found on occasion from what I've heard out in full marine waters. they don't stay their for long though which is why I would never keep them in a brackish tank. firemouths and their other Thorichthys cousins are another example. sure these fish do drift into brackish water from time to time, but I don't believe that keeping them in a brackish tank would benefit them in any way but would probably be more detrimental after a few years.

There are more species of brackish water cichlids than most would think. Along the Indian coast, there are many cichlid species that tend not to be seen the hobby simply due to their drab coloration, but are in fact some of the most interesting brackish water fishes out there, the chromides not even withstanding, as they are more inland fishes. Even the humble kribensis is found in relatively heavy brackish water. In any case, cichlids vary with species. some apistos barely even reach 2", while mangs and other thickset CAs can hit several feet in length.

thanks!!!
What sized tanks do they need??

They are freshwater. The following is only as GENERAL GUIDELINES : You can divide them in 2 categories : African and South American. Africans live mostly in Alkaline water ( pH above 7.0 ) while South Americans live in acidic water ( pH below 7.0 ). Both of them are usually aggressive fish and SHOULD NOT be mixed together. As an example, you should not mix a Jack Dempsey (S.American) with a Venustus ( African ).

Cichlids are fun and very colorfull ( specially Africans from Lake Malawi ). They are not e to disease and easy to keep and maintain. You should consider reading about them and getting some.

Hope that helps,

CC


Last edited by Crusty_Crab at 13-Jan-2006 11:44

See this link about African Cichlids:- http://www.tropheus.info/riftlakes/index.html



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depends on the fish.

Freshwater.

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Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain