FishProfiles.com Message Forums

u say the eastern seabord usually warms up later? it has been getting down to upper 60's at night here and some times up in the lower 90's during the day. could i still breed wcmm's in these temps? if not could i try something more "tropical" like glowlight tetras? they have been VERY hardy for me(i practically cycled my tank with em) and i would like to see them spawn....thanks o and i plan on getting some plants this weekend. how does java fern and java moss sound for increasing the survival rate of eggs? i think i might do that and if u know anything about any other plants that could be used please tell me i cant wait to get started. well good luck with YOUR project. hope u have 2 females and not just 1. i have around 3 or 4

Yeah, one day it was practically 100! I thin wcmm's would be just fine... I wonder about serpaes? I think i might do wcmm's because they are cheap($.99) at one of my lfs's and mine have live very well so far

As long as you read up on their breeding habits and requirements, you should be fine. Though, being new at this myself, I decided that White Cloud Mountain Minnows being hardy would be a good choice.

I am considering upgrading to a larger tub and going down and selecting say 3 more "FEMALE" WCMM. Trying to "work" the odds in my favour. Sometimes, even though I am patient, I get anxious wishing results fast.

Some will get them faster than myself. All depends on the environment. Zweed has the option of selecting almost ANY Tropical fish to breed year round in a pond. Envious -- oh yeah.

Gary

lost a male o well that makes me have an even 8 and i can always go pick up more from a different place. but they are a dollar more expensive o well i found him tonight between this plant i have. i think it was one of the 3 that fell on the floor when the bag popped at the store. he had a bloody spot on his side and i think that may have been an internal injury. well i am prolly gonna get 2 more to make me have 10....could i go higher to increase my odds? or is 10 fine? thanks for ur help

gary - gouramies and bettas are so common here that you can find them in any LFS. guaranteed. i have seen them since i was still a child so they're not really 'exotic' to me . Although I do keep a dozen of 20cm long Snakeskin gourami and 6 giant gouramies, the largest one measuring over 60cm and weighs about 7.5 kg.
Since I have no experience on breeding fishes, I think I would go with the whiteclouds. The only fish I was able to breed were guppies. (chuck them in a pond and the were having tons of babies ).

I'll see when I have a chance. I'm still in school right now.

[span class="edited"][Edited by ZWeed 2004-05-27 22:22][/span]

Still jealous. Living in the land of the Labyrinth Fish. I would spend my entire day searching for wild ones. Yeah, to us, they are "exotic".

WCMM are great Mosquito controllers as well. I have noticed that my bug population is pretty down this year compared to this time last year.

Gary

Today I went to the LFS and golden white clouds were in stock. They never had them here before and it seems that they will be running out quickly so I bought 4. This makes a total of 8 WCs, I already own 4 normal variety. I'll be keep these golden ones in my tank first, until the ponds and everything are prepared.

Can golden wc breed with normal ones? if yes, what are the chances of their fry being golden?

Zweed, I've wondered about that myself. I have 2 Egg Laden Regular WCMM Females, and I was wondering about the genetics. I tried a Punnet Square and came to the conclusion that the odds are 50/50. The odds are also good for half regular/half golden. That would be interesting.

But, I have an ethical dilema about creating Hybrids. Who knows though, they might have a market for such a thing. But its the ethics making me double think the decision.

Gary

my wcmm's are dieing on me i lost the littlest one today hmmm...are there any more "tropical" fish i could do this with besides gouramis and livebearers? im glad to hear that they control mosquitos...i have tons here...hope if the rest live i can breed em. i am getting the plants this weekend. water lettuce, water hyacinth, duckweed, java moss, java fern, and i think frogbit if they have any. the java moss and java fern are just to give myslef a better chance of the eggs living and not being eaten by the adults. also i might try glowlight tetras in there and they need java moss. yea.:%)my glowlights are very hardy and i think that im gonna give em a shot.:%)

I just finished reading an email from the person whom got me involved in this and this is what he is currently breeding (BTW, he lives in Cincinati, OH);

Ilydon Furcidons, croaking grouramis, Longfin rosy barbs, robertsii tetras,guppies, green goodieds, florida flagfish.

He is trying his hand at breeding Tetras this year. Many fish are obviously good. I prefer to stay (and keep it simple) with the hardy Bread And Butter fish until I feel I should upgrade...

Danios are great for this as well. Though I am not sure about the giant ones, I think they will be leaping out of the "tubs" unless you place some sturdy "netting" to prevent this.

Gary

Crazygar, I have been following your experiment with interest. Please keep on updating when anything new happens.

I got my white cloud breeding tub up and ready!!
Well..not really a 'tub', it's a large plant pot almost 1m in diameter and little over a feet deep. Found it in my backyard. I dunno how many gallons it is though, but it seemed big enough for the white clouds.
Plenty of water lettuce was put in the pot along with some kind of seaweed found in a natural pond.

After letting the tank sit for a few days I have added 5 WC's. I think I should have at least one female since one on them is looking very plump.

Pic of Setup

Hoping to see some fry soon!

I have a feeling you'll have fry well before I do Zweed. Your Water Lettuce look real nice too! Right now, everyone's pond plants here in Canada are looking a little on the Yellow side, unseasonably low temps are creating a havoc this year.

I have a suspicion though, that might have eggs already been laid amongst the Water Lettuce, crossing my fingers.

Gary
BTW:Moving up probably to a 100GAL feeder tub to increase my odds (of course getting a few more FEMALE WCMM).

i have 4 wcmm's in a 50 gallon tub(filled about half way) with some white ivy. im getting water hyacinth soon cuz i found a place to get it. i still dont know where to get water lettuce my wcmm's are doing good in the tub i am hoping to get some money for a few more wcmm's and plants.

Day 23 (June 4th, 2004) - Leveling Out The Playing Field
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Feeling that 2 more Females would balance out the playing field, I purchased 2 more (heavy) Females from the LFS originally with the Golden White Clouds. I seem to have sparked some local interest in this project. I've had 2 owners of LFS's come by and check things out. I also have "orders" if I can produce loads of fry. I am looking at getting one of them to sponser me a larger tub and I'll hopefully make it happen.

So now I have 3 Females to my 7 Males. I think I have increased my chances in a big way. Still looking down my 100GAL feeder trough to place the gang into. The water looks pretty murky and I have noticed a few snails (have prompty killed them ,but I know have to be on guard). Snails are great fry killers.

Day 24 (June 5th, 2004) - Movin' On Up
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Driving around town today, my wife stated that at Home And Garden Store locally was going out of business and that everything is 80% off! Upon our arrival, no sooner had we walked into the store and there it sat, Laguna 150GAL Pond. And for $69.99CAN I could not pass it up. The only big job now is digging a hole in the garden (have it done 3/4 already) and placing it in.

So now comes the big task of digging and fitting. The placing part is easy. So 10 WCMM in a 150GAL pond. I think I should get better results. Also picked up some "Parrot's Feather".

POND DIMENSIONS;
Water Volume:150 gal., 586 L
Measurement : 71"(L) x 50" (W) x 18" (D) , 180 cm x 127 cm x 45.7 cm

Gary


[span class="edited"][Edited by Crazygar 2004-06-05 22:52][/span]

Snails are great fry killers? Really? I never knew that......there are hundreds of them in with my White Clouds right now.......better go remove them!

The White Cloud Fry cling to the sides of the aquarium/pond wall until they have absorbed the yolk sac (3 days) before becoming free swimming. In that time Zweed, they are open game to a passing snail. I have been doing some extermination myself, but I have had someone tell me to keep them in there to control the population and help eliminate algae. I am at a dilema on this one.

Gary

hmmm...havnt seen pics since u started...u need to get some. i think i am out of luck for using wcmm's. im down to 3 so im going to give them to my lfs for store credit so hopefully no more die. also i think i mgiht want to try this with bettas. i would need the larger space to raise the fry. idk if im gonna do it yet though. good luck and remember to get some pictures of everything!

Tetra_fan1212, I have tons of pics (a real nice one of a Flowering Water Hyacinth) and other odds and ends, but due to their size restraints and server space on here, I am foregoing the affair. I am also doing this on Tropical Resources to conserve server space.

Unfortunately, my Website is still kinda buggy, so working on the details before placing it online. When I do, I will link the pics in. If you wish, I can EMAIL them to you.

Zweed; Snails will not kill the fry. I have done some research and it only happens on the rare occassion with the larger snails.

Gary

i found a way to make the pictures a lot smaller. if u didnt know u can go to edit then click at the top on image and then hit streatch/skew and type 50% in both boxes. do that till u think it is small enought for the site and good luck with this...i will have to wait til either later in the summer or til next year cuz i dont have enough money to finish this project as plants themselves are pretty expensive. im going to turn in my wcmm;s for store credit and hopefully get something to help me breed bettas

I hooked up with VillagePhotos, so I'll link a few to the page.

Gary

Crazygar: I have set-up a 30 gallon "bucket" on my deck. It is the kind made of that hard black plastic..... like a plastic oil drum I guess you can say. I set it up on the 1st of June with 2 Water Lettuce and 2 Water Hyacinth. I let that sit until June 7th. I then added 6 WCMM (2 were very plump females). I had hoped to have an established mosquite larvae population. I have yet to see anything. The guy at the lfs said that they may be eating them before I get a chance to see them. Do you think this is likely? Also, what do you use as a substitute food? Thanks for all your help.

Substitute Food? Once they get used to the live stuff, anything else is ignored. They eat the many bugs that the plants attract.

The mosquito larvae you'll never see, they will eat'em up quick.

I tried a floating a piece of beefheart in the tub and not one of the WCMM were interested in it. I dropped in some small soft bugs and they decimated them in a hurry. That was the easiest experiment I have ever conducted.

Gary

FRY!!!!! I've got some fry!!!! They're so cute and tiny!

Just checked upon my white clouds today and noticed some small black lines about 3-4mm long. Upon closer inspection, I saw small little fishes swimming about.

Unfortunately, a few days ago a frog (or toad?) went in my breeding tub. It made the water so cloudy that I did a 60% water change after removing it. Of course at that I time I didnt know that my fish had laid eggs, otherwise I wouldnt change the water. So I think most of the eggs washed away when I did the water change. So sad.

Currently I could only count about a dozen or so but they are really hard to see so maybe more hiding in the plants.

Will I need to feed the fry? I have plently of stonewort in the tub which is very similiar to Java Moss. Can the fry live off micro-organisms from the plants?

This is making me pretty excited. How long will it be until they reach marketable sizes? I'm not going to sell them though.

Thanks!

2 1/2 months before they are marketable! At the current moment, I do not think I have any! Weather has been either extremely hot and humid or unseasonal cold snaps. Huh, maybe the move to the larger pond will reap larger results.

Gary

Day 30 (June 11, 2004) - All Quiet
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
As far as I know, I have no fry yet in the tub. Though, the container is all BLACK therefore they'd be hard to see. I've seen many of the males/females "shimmy" against each other in the Water Lettuce and Parrot's Feather. I know this is egg laying behaviour.

I will do the "flashlight" test to see if I can see anything. Congratulations to Zweed on Fish Profiles.com for a successful spawn of White Cloud Mountain Minnows! I can only wait here in Canada.

I've had a disaster . A bird has decided that my pond is a lunch buffet. A crow..... at least I believe it was a crow.... it may have been a blackbird... none the less has eaton 5 of my 6 fish. I had noticed my fish population dwindling over the last few days. I thought they were jumping out. I searched all over the ground and under the deck my tub is on. No luck. Well, yesterday morning, as I was making breakfast, I saw a lagre blcak shape go across the window. I look out and there it is, sitting on the railing next to my bin. Next thing I know, it reaches down, grabs a fish, and flys off! I was shocked. I didn't think that crows did that, but I guess they do. I have since moved the barrel away from the railing and have hung AOL CD's and pieces of ribbion all around in an attempt to scare them away. It has worked thus far. I plan to restock tonight after a 30% water change. So heads up everybody.... the birds may get you.

Hey! Thanks for the pointer! I've already "rescued" a Sparrow from a watery grave in my new pond. The ledge is curved and extremely slippery (I almost had an underwater view of the pond moving the small fountain) and can understand why.

Wire (Chicken Wire) or Screen Door mesh across the top would definately deter this kind of behaviour.

Gary

Crazygar, how are things going with your experiment? You haven't posted lately and I am curious.

I've moved the "gang" to 150GAL pond in my backyard. Its already been landscaped around it to highlight the pond. As for fry, nothing. I have a feeling I might not get any this year. Oh well, always next year.

Then again, the pond is large and have a "quiet" Waterbell fountain adding some extra O2 to the pond. Tons of Water Lettuce, Hyacinth, Parrots Feather, Duckweed and Dwarf Papyrus.

This weekend an offical report will be posted here. Hmmm, sure wish I could see if I had ANY fry!

Gary

Gary, I'm pretty surprised you dont get any fry yet.
My white clouds already laid their second batch of eggs so now I have different sizes of fry, the biggest about one cm. I dont feed the fry anything but they're growing quite fast so I assume they are eating things off the plants.

The temperature here is still 30+ degrees C but the fish is spawing so well. strange?

Well hope you see some fry soon

Day 42 (Jun 23rd, 2004) - Cold Fish
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So far nothing! I have a feeling that I will be summering White Clouds and removing them in the Winter with no fry. To increase my chances I picked out (2) very plump Female Golden White Cloud Mountain Minnows from my "source" to increase the odds. Now the ratio is (Male) 7: (Female) 5. As the title states, they are "cold fish" right now. Hopefully things start to warm up. It amazes me that I can get Otocinclus to breed like crazy yet I can not get one of the easier fish to breed. Quite ironic.

The final stages of the pond have been completed. I landscaped the entire area and it looks good.

Gary

Gary, I'm pretty surprised you dont get any fry yet.

Likewise. I think the Female population needs to be a bit larger. Hence the purchase of 2 more females bringing them up to 5 and males at 7. The pH of the pond is 7.0 which is bang dead center of their prefered pH level (6.0-8.0).

The weather has been weird though, unseasonably cold and then unseasonably warm. July to September are usually the hot and humind months, I read they prefer temps (water) around 68F to 75F for breeding. Will do a temp check (I have a thermometer at the bottom of the pond on a string.

Gary

Day 55 (July 6th, 2004)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
There is a slight possibility that I actually do have fry or at least eggs been laid. The "pump" females that I have been observing for awhile now, are "thin" again. Also I have placed in some Java Moss in the corners of the pond to create a spawning medium about 1 week ago (June 29th). I think this is what the fish doctor ordered. Now comes the waiting game. Its funny how when you want something to breed and they do not, yet my Penguin Tetra in my 55GAL tank are now egglaying again...augh! I think its a conspiracy!

Hope you have fry or eggs...crossing my fingers...

I have a feeling that I do have fry. Unfortunately, the fry, being 1mm in length will be hard to see until much later in the month. All my "Preggo" females are now thin.

Oh joy! Maybe I finally have some results.

Gary

I've been reading you posts. And it is awsome what you are doing. But i was wondering you said you goy ottos to breed like crazy how did you do it? ANd will you elaborate. But i hope you do have fry. When you can see them please put up pics i would love to see them.

But i was wondering you said you goy ottos to breed like crazy how did you do it? ANd will you elaborate

- Tetraman1225

I do not know. I know that I DID purchase (1) very Plump Otocinclus on pure whim at a LFS 45min away. I am assuming I also had a or some Females in my original (4) I cycled the tank with.

My tank is densely planted, and the params are as follows;

pH : 6.8 - 7.2
Temp: 74-77F

My original bunch came from my Cardimine lytra (Japanese Water Cress) and I assuming the rest came from my Ambulia forest or my Red Ludwigia forest. I guess I am lucky in that sense. My original 5 have turned into (last count) 17.

Gary

You are so lucky you got free ottos and you got your plants to live. I wish i could get mine to live so i just use plastic plants. But i really hope your white clouds have babies. And i love your budda tank. I was wondering are those golden white clouds in the budda the same in the outside ponds? ANd also thanks for replying so fast.

Hi all,
This is my first post. Hopefully someone can help. I don't seem to be having much luck with my WCMM's. I have a 10 gallon tank, lightly planted, with 7 wcmm's. 3 are golden, and the other 4 are regular. Two of the golden are bigger (about 1.5",) and constantly chase the others. I finally saw 2 of my regulars displaying against each other today, but then they were quickly chased away by the large golden's. I'm guessing it might have something to do with my temp, which is at 81 or 82F/28C. Problem is, I can't turn off my lights since my plants need them. Has anyone ever seen aggressive behavior like this before? The golden's even chased my betta around while I had him in there.

Welcome aboard alphaneko!

Firstly, it sounds like your White Clouds are "in the mood". This "FIN" display is Males displaying for a nearby female.

They can be boisterous and should be kept with non-timid fish. Though, the batches that I own in my 55 (6 Regular, 6 Golden) seem to get along with other fishes in my tank fine. In fact, I find my one and only Celebes Rainbowfish schooling with the White Clouds 3/4 of the time.

Check to see if you have any with "Whiteish" bellies that are kind of "round", if so, you definately have males showing off to entire her to breed.

Gary

I too am new here, and read this entire thread. I find it very interesting. Though I could never breed any fish during summer/spring outside in the brutal Arizona sun, I was wondering what the benifits of this is other than the shear excitement of breeding a new fish. You say the fry are sellable in 2 and 1/2 months? About how much do they go for?
I have a ten gallon sitting in my closet that is starting to scream to me. Anyways, good luck with the fry Gary.
Many thanks,
Sundewd

Hi again,
How do I tell which ones are males and which ones are females? Is it by size or by color? I hope I don't have all males. Two of the golden ones are significantly larger than the third gold one, but they're all the same color. And out of the four regular wc's, only one seems to have a round belly.

Hello, I have grown quite interested in your experiment, and would like a go, but I have probably found it too late. Also the weather is a bit iffy, ranging from very cold to very hot. Also we've got cats so that will be bad. If you could direct me to a site which has more information, or if you could giv me more information, it would much appreciated!
Seeya!

Sundewd; Arizona is perfect weather for the warmer temperature fish. Gourami especially would appriciate the extra heat. A 10GAL is a good start but having fish live outdoors, is a better way to get them to spawn. Its almost 100% natural! White Clouds prefer the cooler (and where I live in Canada, the summers are anything but cool) temperatures (at least their water).

Crazy<@}}{{]<; which part of the Isle are you from? Where I am originally from (Scotland, Northern) I would be lucky to have a goldfish live for more than 10days. I would assume England. If you are Southern England you might have more options open. Place some screening or mesh over your "pond" at night to keep the cats out and the air flowing. I have yet to feed the fish in the pond (they rely on bugs and critters and are extremely vibrant in their colours (very yellow!!)

The experiment is right easy. For those folks living in more "Temperate" areas, you can do this longer than I can. Next year, I am going to try a Gourami species or Tiger Barbs. Not quite sure which one. But something nice and basic. I would love to try out Mottled Ctenopma.

Gary

Thanks Gary, if I could get my hands on a big box (like 100 gals) would I be able to put my firemouths in or would they need a higher temperature, would I be able to put a heater in. Or should I put my guppies in as a starter. or should I start from scratch, this is if I could get my parents permission. Also could you show me what the boxes should look like if thy're suitable. Oh yeah I'm in the MIDLANDS

I would give the Guppies a go first. If they do not readily breed in your outdoor area, then other fish might have the same problem.

Right now, still no fry (though, my Azolla Carolina and Java Moss have taken over the top and bottom of the pond) that I can see anyways. Oh well, its been fun "blogging".

Gary

Sorry for your no fry but better luck next year.

Ironic don't you think? (Sorry Alanis). When you want something to do something, it usually does not. When you do not want it to do something, it usually does. I think its called "Murphy's Law".

Oh well, the weather lately has been erratic going from extremely hot to extremely cold and no inbetweens. I am sure this has a lot to do with it.

Gary

I thought murphy's law was "everything that can happen, will happen"
or not

If you have no fry this year, are you going to try again next summer with different fish?

Most definately. I wish to try out a Gourami species (I have my heart set on Croaking Gourami) next year. At least Labyrinth Fish have less demands than your regular fish. Still, none the less, I managed to get a pond and a nicely landscaped backyard out of the deal so it was not a total loss.

Gary

If the croakers work then try to get your hands on a couple of chocolate gouramis. Then you could make a killing selling the fry. They need live food anyway. So mosquito larvae would be perfect. OH do you go out and feed your white clouds if so how often. Or do you just let them eat what lands in the tub?

Chocolate Gourami are EXTREMELY sensitive to water quality. I am not sure the Canadian Summer (weird one this year) would enable them to survive for long.

As for feeding; whatever bugs land in there, becomes lunch. On occassion I've seen some jump for not too often.

Gary

How do you keep your fish from jumping out? I have seen many blue gills jump out.

Dunno. Its totally open. I have loads of plants around the outside step of the pond, this might deter the jumping.

Gary

I bred tons of paradise fish outside in something like a rubbermaid container this year. I just tossed in some java moss and a few apongeton bulbs along with 5-6 clams that help filter the water. They mated constantly untill I finally took the female out and left the male with the fry. I think I have around 1000 of them swimming around in there. The male even turns down flakes because he gets enough bugs to eat. Side question for crazygar... what do otocinclus eggs look like?

Small, very small, I've only seen about 10 or 20 since they starting breeding last year. Look like milky white bubbles on the underside of leaves. They love my Red Ludwigia and Cardimine plant for this.

All this is accidental. I had no idea they'd spawn. I originally started out with 5 Otocinclus and I currently have 20.

Not bad. But I assume a good portion of the eggs and surviving fry are consumed by my less picky eaters.

Gary

I had 10 small white eggs on my airtubing and now 7. It's been 4days so how long do they take to hatch? Every other fish in my tank has been eliminated from laying them and the otos absolutely love the airtubing which is covered in plants halfway up. Either they are oto eggs or I have an unknown mystery creature somewhere