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i was wondering if you think that these two tank setups would work good or not.

i wanted a planted tank, so i was thinking i'd go with a cheap 20L tank. it will have 65W of PC light, not sure of the substrate and DIY CO2.
not sure of the plants yet, but they will be low light.
fish: 7 serpea tetras, 3 yoyo loaches and 3 ottos

then my tank that i've been wanting for a long time. 75 gallon tank. Probably XP3 canister filter, sand substrate, a few rocks and a few pieces of driftwood.
fish: Jack dempsey!!!, 1 or 2 bumblebee catfish, then the two rescues that are in a 45 gallon tank at the moment, a CAE and a common pleco.

so i was wondering if either or these setups would have a problem or if somebody has suggestions or maybe even similar tanks to tell me about.

thanks,
X24

IME yoyo loaches get a bit big for a 20g. They are also pretty active. My 4 are a plump 4 inches and utilize all 4 ft of my 55g tank. They chase each other from one end to the other...so I think I'd go with atleast a 3ft tank for them, minimum...preferably 4ft. I know a 20L is 30 inches, but IMO I would go with a smaller loach, maybe Dwarf Chains or Kuhlis.

*Kristin*

X24,

Besides what GirlieGirl said, take a look at my My 20G Long Log. It may give you some ideas about layout and what not. This afternoon I will hook up the 65W light as for the last year the tank had 40W and I feel like playing a little with it.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

thats 20liters not gallons then you definantly can't have any yoyo's

-Vincent

no, not 20 liters, i ment 20 gallon 'L'ong tank.

i was just going to move my yoyos from my 29 to my 20, because i'm afraid either my krib or firemouths will bully them. (i really should update my sig though)

i'm checking out your log right now. the 75 is really what i'm worrying about, i know its a bit overstocked from the rescues i have made, but this is the biggest tank i am comfortable with.

ok sorry about that you should be okay as long as you but them in your 75 when they get to big.

-Vincent

Well after researching i'm still more confused then ever about the planted tank.

i don't know what is the best substrate, what i have to do with the chemicals or plant fertilizers, idk where i'm getting the plants from either (whats the best online place?)

i decided that it would be much better to re-do my 10 gallon to make it a planted tank, this way i can test out my driftwood, DIY CO2, substrates ect. that way i know exactly what to do with the 20 gallon tank.

Substrate for a planted tank is really your choice. IMO there are severaly good substrates. I personally love Eco-Complete. It is black, contains good nutrients and minerals, and it is kind of a mixture between sand and gravel. Also, you don't have to rinse it! Flourite is another good substrate. It comes in brown and red. It also contains good nutrients and alot of iron (i think). You have to rinse it over and over to get all the dust particles out, otherwise it will cloud your water. Another good substrate is Aquasoil Amazonia. It comes in a small gravel like form and in a powder form (kind of like sand). I believe it lowers your pH a bit. There are also many other kinds: layer of laterite under regular pea gravel, Onyx sand, etc...

You can always use regular gravel if you'd like. Make sure it is a small gravel though. You will just have to be sure to use fertilizers and root tabs (if you have heavy rooting plants like swords and cryptocorynes).

Sand will also work, but you'll have to either stir it weekly or get some Malaysian trumpet snails so that it doesn't compact. Pool filter sand is a slightly larger grain sand that alot of people use in planted tanks.

Its all a matter of preference really...and depends on what you can get and afford.

Some good online plant sites are:
Aquariumplants.com
Freshwater Aquarium Plants
Aquatic Plant Depot

My personal fav is AquariumPlants. They have an excellent selection and good prices. Aquatic Plant Depot has really good prices and a flat rate for shipping of $10, but not the best selection. They are good for your basic stem plants, crypts, and anubias.

IMO a 10g is the easiest to upgrade lighting on, if you have a hood that holds 2 screw in bulbs. There will be limits though since it isn't that tall or long. A 20g tall would be a good tank to plant because you could use more stem plants. Its up to you though!

For plant fertilizers, its not that hard! I use the Seachem line. Its a bit expensive for bigger tanks, but for a 10g or 20g, it won't be that bad. I don't calculate how much of each nutrient I'm dosing or any of that. I just dose what the bottle says. If you go with some dry ferts, you will have to do the calculating, but we have some excellent plant folks at FP that could help you out.

Good luck! And don't get overwhelmed. Its easy as pie once you get the hang of it. You'll start one planted tank and the next thing you know, you have 3.

*Kristin*

well i decided just to jump into the 20 Long tank.

ok, that store plant depot seems very nice. i think i might go with the low light plant package. it says its good for 10-20 gallon tanks, which i think i might have to add a few plants afterwards, but should be fine for now.

i'm also thinking of getting some java moss for my piece of driftwood.

the substrate i think will be 20lbs of eco-complete, with peat plates underneath it.

the 75 gallon will have 3 or 4 pieces of driftwood, one large rock and one smaller rock.

also, my PH and hardness are higher then most plants like i believe, so will those peat plates help that?

My understanding is that the humic acids present in peat react with sparingly soluble carbonate compounds that are part of the cause of 'hard water'. The resulting organic compounds of the mineral elements in question (usually calcium and magnesium) are insoluble in water, precipitate out, and cease being a part of the mineral content of the water. However, this IS, I emphasise, a highly simplified picture - water chemistry is one of those topics that continues to attract research chemists because there is still so much waiting to be found out.

What happens to those metal ions once they're bound to organic complexes is another of those areas that requires some input from research chemists and biologists (in the case of natural water systems). My guess is that bacteria eventually metabolise some of these compounds, and in doing so make the calcium and magnesium available for plant uptake (which would be useful if this transpired to be the case, because magnesium is very important to plants, being the element whose ions are bound within the porphyrin complexes of chlorophyll molecules - without magnesium, you have no chlorophyll).

What role calcium plays in plant metabolism is one of those gaps in my knowledge that I shall invite someone else to fill (at times like this I wish Diana Walstad would join the Board, because if there's anyone who knows what makes aquatic plants tick biochemically, it's her). However, if calcium is as important for plants as it is for animals, then making calcium available for root intake would again be a very useful function if bacteria did indeed perform this. I think it safe to assume that along with the well known cycles for carbon and nitroge, there are cycles for other elements in the biosphere too - particularly those elements that play important functions in life processes. I've cited magnesium and it's importance, and calcium of course is of major importance to vertebrate life, plus of course iron (haemoglobin in animals, and it has its uses in various photosynthesis control enzymes in plants).

Tangentially diverting for a moment, one aspect of aquatic environment chemistry puzzles me a little. Copper is well known for being highly toxic to invertebrates, which is why it's used in medications for a variety of protozoan diseases (e.g., Velvet and related marine diseases, plus White Spot and related protozoan diseases in freshwater fishes). However, among the invertbrates that will be killed off by excess copper in the water are crustaceans. However, if one looks at the porphyrin complexes in crustacean blood (the compounds that perform the function analogous to that of haemoglobin in humans), these contain copper atoms! A little puzzle I think needs looking at in depth ...

However, one point to remember, returning to topic, about your planned use of substrate peat plates. In that setting, the peat will have a finite life from the standpoint of water softening. (Of course, it's other functions will be finite in scope, but that's the one I wish to address here). So, eventually, after many water changes and the continued operation of the aquarium, the peat plates' store of humic acids available for calcium and magnesium removal will be exhausted. If you are interested in the continued functioning of peat in your aquarium, it would be advisable to look at replaceable peat blocks in a canister or HOB filter, for example.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

well, some of that wasy way to technical to understand, i don't even think some of it was on topic, but i got the last part and a few of the others.

from what i understand you are saying that the peat will be good for the plants and water for a while (since i have a high PH) but that they need to be replaced, which i plan on putting new peat plates in the HOB filter when the PH starts to go up.

X24,

I am not a specialist on peat and/or lowering the ph with it, but I think to remember a few things (and I might be wrong):

- Peat will color your tank water slightly yellowish
- Albeit most fish can accept a wide range of ph, it is not a good idea to change an existing ph quickly to a different one. What does this have to do with peat? Well, let us assume that your ph would have been lowered from 8.5 to 7 after a while in the tank (with the help of peat). Now you go and perform a water change of, let's say, 50%. You would instantly have created a dramatic difference in ph in your tank and your fish will be, at least, stressed during the adjustment process. What am trying to say? I am trying to say that I would suggest one of the two following options:
a) Only perform small water changes, let's say no more than 10%, but perform them at least twice a week, if not more often.
b) Adjust your replacement water's ph level to the tank level by storing it in buckets that have peat in it before adding it to the tank.

The general suggestion, I think, is: rather than adjusting the ph to what fish in the wild would encounter, slowly try to adjust the fish to your ph. If your ph is so high that there is no chance that the fish would be ok, maybe consider different fish.

Hope this helps, I hope my entry was not "way to technical to understand" ,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

ok, i guess i'll just leave it as it is. i'll start posting again when i get my tanks.