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im not sure if this is the right forum.. but someone could for sure direct this post there

here goes... i've got a ten gallon tank just hangin out.. i went fish shopping yesterday and decided i want to try to make it a dwarf puffer tank...

ive been told before that they dont need salt, but the "fish store personell" informed me they do......

here's my questions:
1. i need to cycle the tank for a couple of weeks... should i add salt and cycle it with a few mollies? or should i cycle it freshwater and add salt later?

2. also, if the REQUIRE salt.. how much????

3. some people have told me they need snails to sharpen their beaks, and ive also heard that they don't. which is true?

4. HOW MANY should i get?????

Thanks for answering all my silly questions...


ooh.. i almost for got... on the tag label they were labeled as and "advanced" level aquariust fish...

im not sure im "advanced" but im pretty confident i could trouble-shoot any problems i might have... if you own these fish, how hard are they really?? is there any crazy maintainance that im overlooking?

*Chelle*
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I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

chelaine,

No matter which site (including our profile here at FP) you look at to find out more about these little critters, they all say (and that is what I have heard as well) that this fish is a pure freshwater puffer (unlike many others of that family). Just google for "Carinotetraodon travancoricus" and you will find tons of info.

The things I have heard and read besides this are (but with no guarantee):

- Is very aggresive for its size and will attack even larger fish. So if you have them in a 10 make it a species tank.
- Maybe 2 or 3 should be ok, but try to get 1m + 2f (and sexing seems to be a problem)
- The thing that scares me most about puffers in general (and I have no clue if this applies to Dwarfs at all) is that they require their beak to be trimmed, otherwise it will grow too large and the fish cannot feed anumore. I know I would have a hard time to do that.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

hi chelaine - as requested,Ingo is right, they are mean little suckers, the only thing Ive found that they wont nip is fully grown siamese flying foxes.

They are NOT brackish fish, and in fact need very high quality freshwater and excellent filtration.Forget the salt.


This is about the only species of puffer that doesnt need its beak trimmed, when they eat snails they suck them out of the opening or just nip bits of the soft fleshy part,(they even suck the middle red bit out of bloodworm and spit the skin out sometimes and they can actually be intimidated out of attacking snails much over 5mm in shell length - gotta laugh!)so they dont break the shell, but they do have a nutritional need for them, and will do much better with them than without them. As long as they can get the occasional snail they do well on a diet of about 40% bloodworm, 10% brineshrimp, and a few odds and ends like beefheart, mine even take some cichlid foods (with shrimp and turkey in) and they eat other types of mosquito larvae too. They will take live tubifex, and very tiny earthworms if you can find them.Try and keep soft meaty foods like worms and snails as the majority of the diet. The main problem with feeding dp's is food recognition, sometimes it takes live food to keep them interested, although mine are eating entirely dead foods (apart from the snails) not everyone manages this, and you may always have to be prepared to offer them some live foods.

If your worried about beak overgrowth, it almost never happens with this species (lets face it there wouldnt be a great deal you could do about it even if did, theyre far too small to have the teeth clipped) so to err on the side of caution offer them some frozen foods like frozen cubed bloodworm and they will attack it before it thaws, thatll be a little guarantee for keeping the teeth in check, but it probably wont be needed.

Dwarf puffers will generally drop dead at the first sign of lacking water quality, so id cycle for at least the minimum 21 days to at least a month. Dp's generally wont survive a cycle, when you have them its worth considering carbon filtration too. The ironic thing is that you may have trouble keeping a reasonable sized filter cycled, these guys are so tiny they produce very little waste and ammonia,until theres a decent amount of mature gravel and mulm in the bottom of the tank the water quality may be unsteady.The large part of the cycle is maintained by food they miss going off in the tank, which is why I tend to keep them in a larger than average tank with flying foxes, so the waste food gets hoovered up, and the fish keep the cycle going nicely.

If you can sex them (mature males generally have little scores around their eyes rather like wrinkles- in fact you can see it on the pic I posted on the other thread, those are two males staring each other down)) try and keep the males outnumbered by females at least 2 -1 or they will start attacking each other, and typically they mean it, and bite chunks out of each others faces, so obviously you want to avoid this. Best way to stop them fighting is to go SERIOUSLY heavy on the plants to create visual barriers, these guys are so small they can easily negotiate the most tangled of tanks, and flow from filters annoys them anyway. Overloading with plants is a good way to keep the water sweet without the flow rate from the filter sending them spinning in circles.

Puffers are territorial, although it does seem to work in a strange clique way, with certain males and females being allowed in and out of territories, given that your using a 10 gal, more than three would probably be pushing it. I keep 12 in a 30, but its easier to stratify the space in the 30, and theres some running away room.In a 10 theres nowhere to run , so they really have to get on.
Anything else you need to know, just ask.

whew! thanks for the replies!!

just one quick question... how hot should i keep the tank? i have my 55 around 80 degrees and my 29 around 75 degrees...


*Chelle*
_______________________________________________
I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

My tank is controlled to a precise 78.5 day and night, after a bit of experimentation it seems to be about the best temp for providing disease resistance and yet not over-accelerating the metabolism of the fish, they are a small fish and if you keep them much hotter than that youll be feeding them more than 3 times a day and they may not live too long. At 78.5 theres no health problems and two feeds a day. 80 sounds perfectly tolerable though, but I wouldnt let things get over 82f, or under 75f.

Another thing you might need is an algae eater, but dont make the mistake I did and try ottocinclus, in one night after living together peacefully for months the dwarf puffers killed one otto, fin-nipped 8 others, completely de- tailed a neon tetra, and had to be seperated. They even tried it on with my bulldog plecs too.Shrimp and snails are on the menu too ,so your options are limited. Siamese flying foxes really are the only algae eaters they wont attack (probably something to do with the fact that siamese flying foxes have about 50 times the body mass, tough scales, and will hit them back in the face with a large tail. -ive seen it happen.lol),apart from very large plecostomus but they all need large aquaria. DP tanks can be a pain for algae. You might want to just run a very clean tank, keep the lighting on a fairly short regime, and be careful not to overfeed too much, and do your own algae scraping. Algae removing chemicals are probably a bit risky in tanks with such small sensitive species. Striking a good balance between having a nicely maintained cycle, and avoiding algae can be tricky in dwarf puffer tanks.If you can get the plants to outcompete the algae for nutrients- do so.

My experiences with both c. imitator and the travancy that's already been discussed differs from what people seem to have noted. They are not as aggressive as people seem to note, so long as they are kept with appropriate tankmates. I have kept them with boisterous tetras both large and small, a variety of loricariids and callichthyids, smaller poecs, and many, many cyprinids. Provided that they are well fed, things should pass without TOO much incident. Furthermore, they are amongst the hardiest of the tetraodontids (believe me, I've kept quite a few), tolerating extremes of temperature, salinity (NOT ADVISED), nitrogenous waste compound levels, and other inorganics. In short, provide them with the best environment possible, but keep in mind that you don't have to sweat bullets if you make a mistake; they'll cope with it. They also go quite well with other puffers, if you're looking for viable tankmates. I've kept them with coloms. and modestus and, save the minimal biting and nipping, no problems were noted. The single modestus in the tank did, however, jump out of the tank to his doom after a short while (a month, perhaps?), so I cannot be sure of long term viability of this species combination.

I know what cupoflifenoodles means, and as you may have noticed weve already discussed it in the forums before, but mine unfortunately decided to become homicidal maniacs after two years living blissfully with tetras etc, and his have to date not, but my experience of them is by no means unique. Point being, you cant take puffer behaviour for granted and if you must err, err on the side of safety.

Indeed. I have heard far too many stories of dwarves nipping all over the place, tearing open ghost shrimp nearly as large as themselves, etc. Do not take my experience for a generalization.

I've had one of these guys.
Only add salt if you want to kill him, he's a freshwater only guy. This small guy doesn't need snails, mine didn't even seem to bother with them when I gave him some. I only had 1 and it was in my 10gal with community fish and a botia loach. People claim this guy is very very violent but I found that wasn't true at all, or my guy was just special. He never ever bothered a single guy in my tank, never. He just likes to dance around mid-top of the tank and hide in plants.

I have 4 of these, and have had 3 of them for years(around 3 years now).

They are fully freshwater.

Mine have always done well in a community tank, but with some reservations. Do not severely overcrowd them. Do not keep with fish with long flowing fins. I have seen no no fighting among themselves, and no fighting with neons, celebs rainbows, upside down cats, pleco's, harlequin rasboras, von rio tetras, several cory species, and glass cats with ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM.

I even keep them with ghost shrimp without any problem. I am willing to sacrifice a ghost shrimp if one of the puffers tries to eat it, though.

I do not find them to be overly agressive. Especially not on the scale of cichlids, or even tiger barbs. But if they do decide to bite, the beak would cause damage.

If you worry about everything, do not try this fish, as others do call them agressive. But I work with them at work, and have kept them for years with no bad outcomes.

Mine only eat frozen food, esp blood worms and brins shrimp, with some random live foods(snails, earthworm peices)

Other than that they do not eat flakes or pellets, they are not too hard to keep.

soooo many suggestions!! ahh! i feel overwhelmed...

hmm... i went back to ****mart today to buy a background for my 55 gallon and i checked out the little guys...

their other tankmates were a "spotted leaf fish" im not sure if thats right.. and well the tag said "feed frozen foods and tropical flakes"

my whole theory on fish is, if these idiots at ****mart can keep the fish alive and not know what the heck they're talking about.. then i imagine i could do a much better job..

either way.. a couple questions remain.. how long should i cycle and with what? ive got a batch of mollies that i dont mind sacrificing (fry i could never get rid of) plantwise.. what works best?
and also they require a pretty good filter system- which is best? or would a more powerful filter work fine? (ive got one lying around from my 29 gallon when i bought a new one)

*Chelle*
_______________________________________________
I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

Leaf fish eat live food mainly,although they may take frozen, and other small fish. Presumably puffers are too toxic to contemplate eating. Lets hope the leaf fish figures that out before it swallows one and ends up dead as toast. A leaf fish wouldnt be a good cagemate for puffers anyway, theyre mostly sedentary, and once the puffers figure out what it is , they may well pick it to pieces. These guys clearly havent got a clue. Steer well clear.

Im not keen on cycling with fish, i prefer fishless, and since mollies like a bit of salt and the puffers dont, id probably use either bought ammonia or something from the lfs. Get the plants in nice and early and that will help things balance. I really like wysteria , its so fast growing, and has the benefit of being able to just have the green tops nipped off and replanted if things get a bit covered in algae. It eats a lot of waste, and is fast growing, and it creates nice plump visual barries, but the puffers are still small enough to negotiate between the leaves. Java is probably a bit slow growing.

hmm.. although everyone says mollies prefer salt.. mine have lived years without it... whats up with that? well before i was "experienced in fish" i.e (when i bought like 8 mollies for a ten gallon) no one ever told me they required salt. so i never added it. now i've got fish in my tank that cant handle salt. so.. they dont get it.

whats the deal with that anyways? why do the "need" salt?

*Chelle*
_______________________________________________
I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

Chelle,

Mollies are an interesting fish. They "need" salt because it resembles their natural habitat, brackish water.

But, and this is a big but, so many Mollies are not coming from their natural habitat and are instead tank or farm raised. Word is though that they would do best in salty water and live the longest.

Interesting side note: Mollies can be trained to survive in ocean water (very slow and long acclimatication) for a while. That is why the dark side uses them as feeder fish for their fish that pray on life food.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

also.. i couldnt find any info on a "spotted african leaf fish" but this is the picture i found on a different fish sitehttp://badmanstropicalfish.com/message_board/messages/231/34441.html?1108258728

can anyone give a positive ID?

*Chelle*
_______________________________________________
I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

Ingo,
can angelfish handle salt?

*Chelle*
_______________________________________________
I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

Chelle,

Your Leaf-fish might be Polycentropsis abbreviata.

About Angels and Salt, no idea, sorry about that. I would say that almost all fish can handle a little salt, but that's as much as I know.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

i dont persay HAVE a leaf fish.. but thats what the tankmates with the dwarf puffers are...

*Chelle*
_______________________________________________
I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

I have used a little conditioning salt with angels , and they coped with it fine, its a handy thing to use against certain parasites, but aside from using salt for species that actually need it, theres little point. It seems to be something that people feel they ought to try using, but to be honest its nothing more than a bit of a fad, and true freshwater species have no need for it whatsoever. Some common species like many cories for example are salt intolerant, and you can actually kill them. Provide it for brackish and estuarine fish by all means though.

Dwarf puffers can get by without snails, but to be honest its better if they do have them. Its one of those things that often crops up in fishkeeping, like the offering of monotypic diets and lack of diet variety to generalist species of fish -its bad practice, and eventually leads to a host of health problems and lack of longevity, and I wouldnt recommend it. Puffers primarily eat invertabrates and molluscs,and if your puffers wont take snails then you have to compensate as much as possible by using as many sources of other foods as possible. Not to do so, seems to me to be shabby fishkeeping, and you should always introduce new foods many times before giving up on them, doing any less is lazy and will encourage the fish to bad dietary habits. Always give the fish some options.Its not like live snails go off or anything...