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SubscribeFrustation in picking and choosing fish
General Hague
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In my tank I have M & F German Blue Ram, M & F Gold Ram, Tetras, cories and a pleco.

I have changed the different fish multiple times before in my tank. Yesterday I got rid of my long fin temnaki? pleco, 2 rainbows an 4 buneos aires tetras for store credit and I got 1 King Tiger Pleco and 2 Gold Rams listed above. Since I got rid of the Buenos Aires Tetras, I noticed my German Blue Rams have been more aggressive, probably they were scared of the Buenos Aires Tetras since they were bigger and swam a lot faster. The German Blue Rams, especially the male now actively pursues the Gold rams and tries to bite them and some times even the tetras and cories.

I really like the German Blue Rams,and I like them more than the Gold Rams but I like having a peaceful community tank.

Any one got advice?
Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 18:09Profile PM Edit Report 
Joe Potato
 
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How big is the tank?

It sounds like what you have going is just a run-of-the-mill cichlid territorial dispute. Since both German and Gold Rams occupy the same part of the tank, if the tank is not big enough there will be a bit of fighting. Basically, you plunked down two more fish into what the male though was his domain and he took exception to that.

If it gets to be too rough, I'd suggest pulling out the Golds and either return them or move them to a different tank. Another thing you could try is rearranging the aquarium decor to break up established territories, and hope that the Golds can stake out a part of the tank for themselves.

Joe Potato
Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 18:14Profile Homepage AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
lioness
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How big is your tank? I suspect this aggression has little to do with the tetras and is more because of same species competition. The german rams are paired up and already had an established territory in the tank. Now with the addition of more rams, the boundries are threatened. If you have a large enough tank for both sets to stake out their own terrirtories then this should resolve itself in time. Make sure you have hiding places and large objects such as rocks or wood in the tank. This can help each pair of fish feel secure.
Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 18:15Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
General Hague
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Since I got rid of the 4 Buenos Aires Tetras which are really huge Tetras, I wanted some other mid level tank fish. I was looking at some apistogramas? but the people at the store I shouldn't get them for my tank since it kind of small but I might be able to get away with adding Gold Rams.

So were the people at the store right? And one thing I would be worried about is if once I got rid of the gold rams that the German Blue Rams would continue to bug the corries other small tetras I have such neons.
Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 18:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
im-trying
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Hi, you mentioned that your tank is kind of small and the people thought it was too small for appistos, how big is the tank? Because if it isnt big enough for appistos ive got suspisions about the plec though being a small plec being able to be housed properly in the tank. I agree with the idea of moving things around to break up teritories with each fish letting them all find new teritories could stop the blues from focusing agression, i aslo think if you took the golds out their agression would drop as they are probably being provoked by the presance of the the golds
Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 18:37Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
General Hague
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EditedEdited by General Hague
The tank isn't small for apistos. I tried to edit my last post, but it wouldn't let me. The store said since it was small, having two different types of Dwarf Cicilids was a bad idea.

Orignally, I was an all Tetra guy, but now I kind of gotten to like Cicilids because they are just more colorful, but they are more aggressive which a trait I don't like.

My pleco have enough room though, he has at 3 inches right now I think, max size is like 5 or 6. No way though I'd get a mid level fish that size though.

Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 18:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Joe Potato
 
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EditedEdited by Joe Potato
Okay, you've had three people ask you now what size your tank is. Until we have that information, we can't give you much advice beyond what has already been said.

Please please please tell us the size of your tank in actual volume units instead of "it isn't too small".

Joe Potato
Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 21:13Profile Homepage AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
General Hague
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10 Gallon had since Janurary 2006.

Previous fish I have had:
2 Ivory Snails (eaten by Yo Yo Loaches)
1 Twig Catfish (I think the Yo Yos killed it since they kept on biting at him)
2 Wood Shrimp (eaten by Yo Yos)
2 tiny clams/muscles (died of natural causes, as did the other ones at the store when I visited it later)
2 African Fan Shrimp (eaten by the Yo Yos)
1 Fire Eel (when I got him, he was really tiny, but after readying about him I found out he would get huge in the future and so I woul have to get rid of him, but he died of natural causes or maybe the Yo Yos did something to it)
5 Yo Yo Loaches (gave these to a store for store credit, after they ate the african fan shrimp and wood shrimp, that was the last straw, gave them away for store credit 3 weeks ago)
2 Rainbows (had them for 1 day, gave away to different store for store credit after finding out they really need a a huge tank despite being that small)
4 Buenos Aires Tetras (had these since the beginning along with the Yo Yos when I first got my tank, but gave away to a store yesterday for store credit since they got huge and would get bigger)
1 Long Fin temanki? Pleco (gave away for store credit since I wanted a "cooler" looking pleco)

Current Fish
2 Panda Cories (got 2 weeks ago)
2 Peppered Cories
1 King Tiger Pleco (got yesterday)
2 Neon Tetras (the other 2 died when I first got them)
4 Black Phantom Tetras (got the 4th one 2 weeks ago)
3 Pristela tetras
3 Gold Tetras (got 2 weeks ago, and I was going to give them away for store credit also and to make more room in the tank but my family wanted me to keep them, but I'm still willing to part with them)
2 Marble Hatchets (these stay almost all the time towards the top of the tank instead of mid level)
2 German Blue Rams (got 1 week ago)
2 Gold Rams (got yesterday, and am willing to part with them)
1 African Fan Shrimp (replacement for those eaten by Yo Yos)
1 Wood Shrimp (replacement for those eaten by Yo Yos)
4 Galaxy Rasboras (got these back in first week of June)

with 2 water plants that are mostly vertical (so doesn't take up much space, they look like the fake plastic kind), 1 tiny piece of drift wood that sticks up, and 1 Rainbow Rock with holes drilled in it, and also got 2 banana plants.

Basically how it's like in my tank is:

*The Shrimp stay on the bottom, the both cories species almost always stay on the bottom and the King Tiger Pleco stays on the bottom.

*THe Marble Hatchets Stay towards the top, but once in a while goes in the mid level

*Other Fish (all the tetras and rams) stay mostly in the mid level of the tank, but still go towards the top and bottom as well

Only real problem fish I have had is the Yo Yo loaches. Now though that the Buenos Aires Tetras are gone, and that the Gold Rams were added, the German Blue Rams now chase the Gold Rams and some times they bite at the Tetras especially the Black Phantom Tetras, the female german blue ram chases the galaxy rasboras and some times I have seen the male German Blue ram bite at the peppered cories. All my fish though I have seen do not bother the German nor Gold Rams, and the Gold Rams haven't bothered my other fish.
My other fish that haven't been bothered by the rams is the Shrimp, King Tiger Pleco, and Panda Cories. But the rams don't go after the other fish too often, mostly just the Gold Rams.

I do believe my tank may be over populated, but my fish seem to be happy and healthy and appear more colorful now as compared to how they looked orignal in the stores when they looked dull. However the current situation with the Rams is breaking the peace in the tank.
Post InfoPosted 30-Jun-2007 22:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
MrKipper
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I do believe the ram issue is the least of your worries.

If I understand correctly, you have all those fish in a 10 gallon tank, which is way too many for that size and you are correct in thinking that your tank is overpopulated.

I suggest perhaps returning a few of them for store credit, and using that money towards getting a new, larger tank! Keeping 2 pairs of rams in a 10 gallon is just asking for trouble, as a 10 generally considered the minimum for housing a ram pair. Additionally, your pleco will not be happy at all living in a 10 gallon when he reaches full size, so maybe get a smaller type, like a BN.

Another option if you can't/don't want a larger tank is to simply return some fish (and at least 1 of the ram pairs) to cut down the population of your tank to a more reasonable size.

Also, just out of curiosity, what filter d oyou have running at the moment?
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 00:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
General Hague
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both an undergravel filter and the regular filter, can't think of the name of it at the moment.

Just out of curiosity, if I returned the Gold Tetras (3), the Gold Rams (2), do you think it is possible to have (2) apistogramas?
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 00:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
MrKipper
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I'm no dwarf cichlid expert, but I'm pretty sure you'd run into the same problem as you have now. 10 gallons simply isn't enough space to allow 2 pairs of any cichlid to easily stake a territory, and they will be in constant dispute with each other, creating a lot of stress for them.

Again, I suggest either a bigger tank, or just sticking with a pair of your fav. cichlid, and a lot fewer fish.
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 01:31Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
im-trying
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The honest answer to your question with the appistos is no.

You are really over stocked along with other issues in your tank. I do not mean to be rude but i think you need to know this stuff.

1. A common rule of thumb for tropical fish is an inch of adult fish per gallon. And even then there are exeptions because of waste, teritory needs or bulk of fish eg the larger cichlids like oscars etc. For example your king plec has a max size of 6 inches this means that this fish alone needs six gallons of water to live in minimum, but plecs are commonly known as one of the messiest fish there are and so will put strain on your filtration especialy in a ten gallon. An other example of stocking issues would be the black phantom tetras, they reach around 2.5 inches fully grown. At the moment you have 4 so this means that in total this school needs 10 gallons alone to live in and this would be a good idea of how many fish you really should have in your tank. 10 inches worth of fish.

2. All of your tetras, hatchet fish, raboras and each cory species need to be in numbers of 6 minimum per school, otherwise they will feel insecure and stressed in their suroundings. This stress level will break up their imune system and can lead to disease through illness and parasites but internal and external.

3. Your plec really should not be in a 10 gallon, IMO there are no plecs suitable for a 10 gallon. If you were looking for algea control from them i think ottos would be a much better idea.

4. The rams, your LFS says that your tank is too small for 2 pairs of cichlids, by this they meant the appistos and the rams BUT by giving you the gold rams they have done the same you still have 2 pairs of dwarf cichlids, so i would recomend that you remove one of the pairs and this will do a lot to help your tank with th agression.

I do have to say though, I think a lot of the problems your tank has encountered can be put at the blame of your LFS workers, they have recomended fish totaly unsuitable for your tank especialy the fire tracke eel you did right to return it . I hope you dont mind but i started to add up how biger tank you would need based on your curent stock with all of the schooling fish in schools of 6 and with all of the species added up based on the inch per gallon rule I got as far as 100 gallons stopped. A 100 gallon tank would probably measure 6 foot long by 2 foot deep and 1.5 foot tall (not sure about this as ive never had a tank that big)

Ten gallon isnt really a great sized tank for what you want from fish keeping i can tell you are keen but you have a lot of learning to do. This site has a lot of detailed profiles on the fish you house i think they would be worth a read.

I do appologise if what ive said has offended you in anyway but you need to know the things i have pointed out.
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 01:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
shadowtheblacklab
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No.

even if you got rid of the stated fish, you would STILL be overstocked,if you want more fish,upgrade to ATLEAST a 30 gallon,40 would be even better.


Shadowtheblacklab

Yup. I'm that crazy Twilight/animal/music girl
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 01:57Profile AIM Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
General Hague
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EditedEdited by General Hague
Well if I wanted to, I'd get a 150 Gallon tank. The problem is that at my college the max size you can have is 10 Gallons. However what is not clear is how many tanks you can have, but I'm assuming just one 10 gallon tank. I'm also 99.99% sure my roomates for next year won't be getting a fish tank, but if they wanted to, all 5 of them could if they wanted to. I live like a 10-15 minute drive away from my college (depending on traffic. During Winter Break (2 weeks) and Spring Break (1 week), all power cords have to be disconnected and I'd rather not leave my tank without power for that long, so I bring home my tank during that time and back to college when I return. Then I bring home my tank for the summer and back to college again in the fall.

If I did get a 150 Gallon tank or even just a 20 gallon tank, the only way I'd be able to see my tank is winter break, spring break, summer and when I go home some times through out the year. So to me, it's not worth getting unless I had my own place. So 10 Gallon is what I'm stuck with.

Ok I read those other posts now. So if I got rid of the Gold Rams Gold Tetras, Pristella Tetras, and Black Phantom Tetras, would it be possible to add Apistogramas? Kind of want to keep the Neons, but if needed, I can get rid of those guys too.
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 02:08Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
im-trying
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I have been looking into getting some appistos, for a 20 gallon and I have scrapped that idea because they need more room to avoid them selves let alone other cichlids, You might manage 1 males and 2 females alone in the tank but thats pushing it.

I think you need to decide on what fish you want and see how much room your left with. You seem pretty set that you like your blue german rams, so how about

2 blue rams
4 galaxy rasboras

OR

2 blue rams
4 neon tetras

those are the stocking levels you are looking at for a 10 gallon really. I think for the bottom you could look at getting some glass shrimp or cherry shrimp because they are mainly made of water and very light on the bioload, and as you have 2 filters it would probs work.
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 02:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
longhairedgit
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EditedEdited by longhairedgit
The fish per inch rule is ridiculous,it takes no real account of bioload, territoriality, type of motion, orientation, and build, and it doesnt work for large or small fish. By the inch per fish rule an adult koi carp would need a 24-30 gallon, and lets face it, it could even turn round in a 30, much less stay alive, it would need closer 200 gallon.

A king tiger plec alone needs 20- 30 gallons for humane care, not 6! A ten gallon is too small for almost any plec. That tank is so overstocked its not funny.

Its also running on an undergravel system , which lets face it is the least efficient form of filtration still used. I think if you think in terms of ditching about 70% of your fish you'll be closer to the mark of stocking within acceptable bioload limits.I'm really not trying to be insulting here when I say that you do seriously need to reign in your expectations of suitable stocking levels. With the fish you have you'd need at least a 30gal, preferably a 40, and if you cant get that sort of size up and running, you have to rehome most of your fish. The 30-40 gallon quote is also with the proviso that you had a good replacement power filter or canister filter to replace the undergravel system too.

No way in hell will an apisto survive in that level of water quality. There will be nitrite and ammonia spikes periodically , and the nitrate will be insane, and even if you are coping with the nitrates with sufficient water changes, those changes would have to be so frequent and sizeable as to be detrimental to the stability of the filter and the health of the fish. Mini cycles will be de rigeur.

To be totally realistic, fish in that tank wont be dying of natural causes, the water quality will be actively and literally killing them. You have three times too many fish for your tank capacity. At least. Apistos in a 10 gallon will dominate the entire space for the breeding area, and any fish in with them may be persecuted.

There so much wrong with the approach to stocking here, I would suggest putting a real stopper on the enthusiasm to buy new fish, taking some time out to read some really good fishkeeping literature, and then think about restocking more sensibly after having learned a great deal more about water quality, territorial responses in fish, bioload and filtration. Literally, take a few weeks to do the reading and think about it. As the situation stands that tank could crash at any time, and you might literally lose every fish you have. You have to read more about the species you intend to keep before buying them.

All these chopping and changes to stock, replacement of fish, and cramming in of new ones is not the way to go. Its reality check time, and you really do have to curb your enthusiasm, or the fish will suffer.

Im not wishing to rain on your parade, but seriously, its about having to. That stocking is way out of control.

I wouldnt say it if it wasnt absolutely needed. It is absolutely needed. Trust me , with a little more learning under the belt, you might actually thank us for the information we give now, I know it sounds like i'm being harsh, but im really not, and besides, if your fish do die en masse, you'll be heartbroken , right?

I'd not like to see you or the fish go through that. Any advice you need, just ask. In the meantime, heres the full probs with the stocking list.

Current Fish
2 Panda Cories (got 2 weeks ago)
2 Peppered Cories

Cories , better in shoals of 6 or more , preferably same species, not enough room for them together with the other scavenger species.Just them with a few tetras would be ok though

1 King Tiger Pleco (got yesterday)

Too big for that tank, full stop. 3 times too big. This fish alone could overload the bioload limit of a ten gallon all on its own.

2 Neon Tetras (the other 2 died when I first got them)
4 Black Phantom Tetras (got the 4th one 2 weeks ago)
3 Pristela tetras
3 Gold Tetras (got 2 weeks ago, and I was going to give them away for store credit also and to make more room in the tank but my family wanted me to keep them, but I'm still willing to part with them)

That quantity of tetras alone is enough to be a full bioload for a 10 gallon and an undergravel filter. Ideally each seperate species should have shoal numbers of 6 or more.


2 Marble Hatchets (these stay almost all the time towards the top of the tank instead of mid level)

10 gallons doesnt really provide enough horizontal swimming room for this species, if they jump or panic, they will likely injure themselves , again another shoaler comfortable in larger numbers, and you dont have room for that


2 German Blue Rams (got 1 week ago)
2 Gold Rams (got yesterday, and am willing to part with them)

Each pair of rams has a territorial range the entire size of the tank, its territorial overcrowding. Will probably fight with other apistos.

1 African Fan Shrimp (replacement for those eaten by Yo Yos)

Is this a cameroon armoured shrimp? If so when fully grown its too big for a 10 gallon unless kept pretty much on its own.

1 Wood Shrimp (replacement for those eaten by Yo Yos)

Ok, fine. Will be adding more to the bioload though.

4 Galaxy Rasboras (got these back in first week of June)

Rare species from a semi destroyed environment, deserving of special care and breeding efforts in a species tank designed exclusively for them. Too precious to risk in overcrowded community. Also tiny, and e to predation from bigger species


Plus youre gonna have to move all these fish around for the holidays!

Hope that gives you an idea of where to start .

Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 02:55Profile MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
General Hague
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Well some fish, I'm not quite ready to part with since I've had them for a while. And as for German Blue Rams and King Tiger Pleco, those are my favorite fish as of now. However I'm a little disapointed with the current aggresive behavior of the Blue Rams, but maybe that will stop when I remove fish. To start off though, I can probably remove:

2 Gold Rams
3 Gold Tetras
3 Pristela Tetras
2 Peppered Cories

And adding:
1 Panda Cory
1 or 2? Neon Tetra
Or should I add 2 Panda Cories since they are a smaller species than the Peppered?

I remember the name of the filter now, it's a power filter, I have both that and the undergravel one.
As for that African Fan Shrimp, it's the same one listed on this site.
Post InfoPosted 01-Jul-2007 04:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
im-trying
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Just wanted to say i was using the inch per gallon rule to illustrate how over stocked the tank was in a very common mesurement rather than a guide to use. Also im not very knowledgeable of plecs so was wrong to put incorect info on the king tiger plec. Sorry for providing flawed advise ^^''
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