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I'm new to this forum but like what I see. I'm an admin at Badman's Tropical Fish and wanted to spread the word about something. Marcos has graciously allowed me to post this here.

I have an issue - it is incorrect, species-specific information being delivered to hobbyists by retailers. Information typically provided by retailers that should know better to hobbyists that don't. It is information delivered to hobbyists that rely on retailers to provide honest, accurate information about the fish they sell.

I wander a number of forums. I see, like most of us do from time to time, the endless discussions that get into LFS or mass merchandiser bashing. Over the years I began to tune them out - even avoid them altogether. I always thought if it bugs you that much - do something productive - let's not just complain to ourselves.

I recently stumbled into a couple of those discussions elsewhere by accident. I am a long time member at one of the sites where I saw the bashing. I knew the person bashing well enough that I shared a letter I had sent to PetSmart a couple of days earlier. Only the second time in my life I had penned that type of letter - the first time dealing with the fish-keeping hobby.

The response was interesting. Never really expected it. As I said to an online friend, had I expected the letter to be anything other than a single "angry man" letter that mass merchandisers receive I would have written it in an entirely different fashion and with an entirely different style. But, since it was a single "angry man" letter it is what was sent.

It turns out that a number of fish-keepers from a number of other sites liked what they saw. And thought they too could do the same. I guess it turns out that fish folk do want better.

Here is that letter:

Mr. Kenneth T. Hall
Sr. Vice President, Merchandising
PetSmart, Inc.
19601 North 27th Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85027

Dear Mr. Hall,

I visited one of your locations yesterday. I was looking for an iron supplement for a planted aquarium as well as a water conditioner. While in your store I looked at many of the fish that PetSmart sells. I was generally impressed with the quality of the tanks and the apparent health of the specimens in Petsmart tanks.

I do, however, take serious exception to the blatant misinformation evidenced on the in-store advertising. POP signage. It could be construed as misinformation designed as a cross merchandising technique to sell other product to the fish buyer. Probably simple mistakes.

Let's take two of the signs; found on the tank to describe the species therein - if you want I would be willing to address many, many more.

Leporinus fasciatus:

In store sign says max length is 7". This fish grows to nearly 12" (30cm).

POP signage says a 10-gallon tank will suffice. A 12" fish in a 10-gallon tank? Is the staff at PetSmart familiar with what is commonly called "stunting"? A documented anatomical and physiological occurrence resulting in deformities and often times disease and death.

The signage also calls out the requirement for Aquarium Salt. Why? The fish is found in fast moving waters of the Amazon River basin. One of the last areas you will find concentrations of Sodium Chloride remotely approximating what will happen if a fishkeeper follows your directions and adds "Aquarium Salt". You may find mineral salts, darn few and certainly of a different nature. And, interestingly, the concentrations of the mineral salts found in the natural environment will typically be far exceeded in many of the water supplies across North America. Is Sodium chloride really “required”?

Clown Loach (Botia macracanthus/Cobitis macracanthus):

Another 7" fish if Petsmart is to be believed. And, once again they should not be. Commonly thought of as a 12"+ species this fish has proven to grow much larger in favorable environments.

A 10-gallon tank is called out on the POP signage. Most respected sources say something along the lines of a tank with the minimum of 36" length for smaller specimens (the ones you sell) and substantially larger for older fish.

Thankfully the myth of aquarium salt was not perpetuated with this species.

Mr. Hall, I guess my concern is that Petsmart postures itself, in so many ways, as to be interested and concerned for and about the life forms it sells to the public. To see such a blatant disregard for a non-mammal line of livestock is disconcerting.

Your company periodically receives a bashing on-line by the "new" fish-keepers. People that discover so much of what they were doing was not really a good approach to promoting fish health and longevity. A bashing delivered to relieve some of their own internal pressure when discovering that fish deaths can be avoided with appropriate care and housing. Call it "responsible husbandry."

Does Petsmart engage in providing misleading information by design, or are the incredible number of errors in the information provided just simple mistakes? Maybe an error at the printer? Or, even the result of overzealousness by a copywriter attempting to promote cross merchandising without adequate knowledge of the fish he or she is describing?

I am not an ichthyologist, a chemist, a biologist, or a scientist of any kind. I am just a simple fishkeeper that has managed to do the research (utilizing legitimate scientific resources) to gain an understanding of what I need to do in order to avoid the easy art of killing fish. I am a fishkeeper that believes it incumbent upon retailers of your stature to do the same.

Heck, have John Gerstenberger, or the copywriters, simply go on-line to www.fishbase.org. They will find an amazing amount of scientifically based, species specific, information which may help them understand the fish you sell just a bit better. From there it is rather simple to find the competent PhD's in the biochemistry and fish fields that will more completely fill out the knowledge base required. The legitimate information is out there with just a few clicks of the mouse. The information at the sites for many of the well recognized and respected Universities in the United States (and internationally) provides a plethora of data that discusses many of the issues you could take a leadership position with as a responsible "Pet" retailer.

Hopefully the next visit to a Petsmart will be less insulting to the senses. And, since I do enjoy Petsmart, hopefully the next visit will not be the last. Or, even the beginning of a different approach to promoting accuracy in information.

Respectfully,

It seems a number of people scattered about the country, members of several other sites, have decided they dislike wrong info and are writing letters (even stealing the one you just read, which is no problem at all). Don't know that using what I wrote is best, though. Usually letters like that are best when someone speaks from their hearts, in their own style.

POP signage is such a routine thing. So easy to update - and frequently updated and reprinted anyway.

I just want accurate information about species provided.

All the stuff with pH Up and Down, Bacteria in a bottle, aquarium salt...is incidental. If consumers start getting basic, accurate, information I will feel like a victory has been achieved. Stores have to make money. As long as they do not harm fish with products that they do not need or lie to a consumer.

I found the address and names contained in the letter on the PetSmart website. If you don't want to use snail mail here is an e-mail address.

corpcommunications@ssg.petsmart.com

Hopefully you feel as strongly as many others do and participate in sharing your thoughts about misleading in-store signage.

Let me stress that this is not about bashing. In fact we frown upon that. This is getting something done in a respectable and sincere way. Please help.

Further notes:

Several domain names have been registered for this endeavor. A couple of them were the simple .com and .org variations of the .net name. And web hosting has been setup for the next three years. The loach lovers out there should appreciate the sentiment in the name:

"No Clowns In A Cube"

The site will not be working for a while. Some others and myself have to sit down and design something. It's easy to make a page and even more difficult to make a useful site. If anyone has any ideas let me know.

When it is up and running it will be www.noclownsinacube.net. The .com and .org extensions will forward to the site.

This is not a quick, easy thing. But, I think it is important that people get the appropriate information and that the species we all enjoy are treated in a humane way. Send those letters and e-mails. And yes, you may be thinking that letters and e-mails will not accomplish anything and by sending them you are wasting your time. When it is a random person sending something you may be right. At this time what I am trying to do is create traffic and perhaps get PetSmart’s attention with a sudden increase of letters and e-mails.

One last thought: the above letter has been posted or linked to at over a dozen different sites. More than a thousand hits so far between the various forums. Hopefully the numbers grow. Hopefully there is a big percentage of people that take the extra step to mail letters and send e-mails or even both.

Thank you.

So did you get response back? I'd be interested in hearing their excuses.

---

I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

You've no idea how many letters like that petsmart and similar chain petstores get on all their pets. Hardly 1 is kept in all that great of conditions or sold with the best of information. They've gotten to the point they don't bother replying to many of the letters they get especially if they are obvious copies of a previously sent letter. I think both the guinea pig forums I go to have sent several hundred each. It does seem to have made some impact though since certain conditions have improved but it's slow progress. It works best if you include info from scientific or research sites or quote sections from books(with proper copyright of course). They listen much better when you provide proof instead of what appears to be opinion.

You're very right, Sham. As I have said, right now my main objective is to spread the word and get people involved. There will be a website dedicated to this project at some point. All of the legalities have been covered.

We have been working with a group of vetrinary students from PetSmart's hometown whom have come up with a project that will go as follows:

Phase I - educate students about the situation and ask those that are comfortable to write letters expressing their concern to PetSmart.

Phase II - have student volunteers compile a list of species available in the area stores and as much of the POP info as they can.

Phase III - provide a template of the species information needed and links to reputable databases on the classroom computers and ask students to spend down time compiling the information for each species.

That's just an example of how this crusade of ours will be and is much more than simple letters. But, currently it is a letter-writing and attention getting campaign.

We have people from all parts of the country compiling information about their local PetSmarts. We will at some point have a page with each individual store's information and how it was provided. That info will be compared to the information on such websites as fishbase.org.

It may all sound like hogwash now, and I can see why, but with a little faith and hard work we can make a change.

I commend your attempt to improve conditions. Petsmart, however, is not the only store that sells fish, that needs to be petitioned.....I know of one in particular, whose history of fish abuse is of historic porportions - but as long as people keep buying from this store, noting changes.
A friend recently was sold two common plecos, for a twenty gallon - the store clerk told her they would only grow as large as tank conditions permitted! One has already died - they told her to just feed them flake food.
Good luck on your endevor!

I am only the messenger here. I've sent my letters and e-mails. I hope you all can find the time to do the same. If we want to make a change we have to start somewhere. This is it. Please send something, anything. Thank you.

I'm going to post a copy of a message I've posted at several other sites with members that have been a bit more skeptical (and maybe help clear up any concerns people who haven't spoken up yet may have). Some of this is repetive (it was copy/pasted together after all). Here goes:

Right now the only retailer we as a group are focused on is PetSmart. There has to be a starting point. Don't want to get things out of hand right off the bat.

There is a group of about 15 people working on getting some activities planned and organized. Members of the group come from several of the on-line forums. I am sure some of the people here have seen the topic posted elsewhere.

A fairly typical set of questions have been:

"Why PetSmart?" Because they are obviously a company that cares. They are obviously a company that strives to keep tanks clean and livestock as healthy as possible in the store environment. They are obviously a company committed to promoting responsible pet husbandry (90% of their charity dollars are directly returned to pet welfare). They are a national presence. They are a leader in the market.

I have been reminded of one of PetSmart's competitors making a comment years ago along the lines of "we are here to sell pets, not cure them" (not an exact quote). PetSmart obviously realizes the need for the opposite approach. Just look at the Banefield brand of vets in their stores.

"Why not all retailers?" If you get a leader to embrace the concept others will follow. There is a competetive advantage for PetSmart to set the pace. And, from a pragmatic view they are convenient. It is far easier to effect a change with a single retailer than it is to effect an industry wide change. It is the simple one-step-at-time philosophy. Basically crawl, walk, run. A lot of energy and effort can be expended chasing after all the national, regional, and local stores. Flailing madly about will be a waste of much of that. Focused effort and energy holds a better chance of positive results.

And, since responsible husbandry starts with the aquarium we have and how it is stocked POP information is the baseline for all the other issues. Basically it is an approach that starts with step one of fish care.

At the same time it recognizes that every one of us will make the choice on how to stock a tank. We have responsibilities of our own as fish-keepers practicing responsible husbandry. The only way people can learn to be responsible is through the use of accurate information. Some of which is the responsibility of a company to provide. Some of which is the responsibility of fish-keepers to seek out.

"What can sending letters accomplish?" Letters are a first step, and a tiny step. A small group of fish-keepers has assembled on a very private forum to discuss the best ways to attack the issue. It will expand significantly beyond the few forums where the letters are being shared (and whose members are probably already getting bored with me) in an attempt to engage clubs, organizations, and the hobby media in the discussion.

Some interesting offers to help out have been received. Hopefully they pan out. Our three biggest problems right now:

- Assembling a panel of volunteer experts to review signage (the content or actual photos of which are being assembled from cities across the country). I can use fishbase.org as my touchstone. I don't have the credentials though to actually endorse or condemn any changes which may occur. I have just kept fish for a while.

- Letters. As many as possible. They serve to get attention. and they will serve to keep the issue alive for at least one retailer (have to take it a step at a time) as a complement to other publicity tools.

- Additional visiblity. Next week (hopefully) we will begin to work the media side of the hobby. At least pet media from the industry and consumer side. It is a slow process, being taken an element at a time.

This is getting long winded, as many of my posts do. Like I said, about 15 people are planing and organizing several areas of activity that are required to give this effort a realistic chance of success. We will keep people informed. But, nothing we do will work without your support and help.

All we ask is you take a few minutes to send an e-mail or snail mail. Write a letter (even copy one of the above). We want to keep the message on target. We hope you agree with the message and the approach.

Remember PetSmart is an excellent organization. Trying to do what is right. We are just trying to nicely help them realize something needs a change.

Well, the site finally launched. We've been working quite a bit on it to get something decent to start with. Here's the URL once again:
http://www.noclownsinacube.net

Take a look around and please keep sending those letters.

We've finished putting together an on-line communities page with a list of all the sites that are up to this point involved in the Accuracy In Information campaign. It's a great list.

Right now we're putting together a discussion forum that will focus exclusively on retail trade practices relating to fish-keeping. We will be inviting all the retailers to join the forum so that it is an even-handed approach. Our goal is not to pillory retailers, especially PetSmart. PetSmart does so many positive things. Perhaps if we can get consumers and retailers together on neutral ground something good can come out of it. Not only in regard to POP signage, but to issues like appropriate community tank setups, staff education, hybrid and painted/dyed fish, over use and improper use of medications as a result of availability.....the list is long.

Accuracy in information is about fish welfare, appropriate treatment, and responsible husbandry. We hope PetSmart helps us by taking the lead in the retail market.

Please send a letter if you haven't, and if you have thank you, and keep sending them. :-)

I think I'll send a letter... I also love Badmans Tropical Fish btw

10G- 6 Zebra Danios, 1 Upside Down Catfish
20G- 1 Goldfish
72G(maybe95)- Need Stock suggestions

Thanks. :-)

The forum's now live. If you'd like to stop by and see what all is going on please do. Our on-line communities page is continuing to expand. Soon we'll have a club/association page up.

Don't forget to send a letter.

I've just found this and I've been reading it with some interest.

One of the fundamental axioms of fishkeeping I've been pushing here to newcomers, and one that was first expressed over seventy years ago by William T. Innes in his landmark book, is that if you give the fish what they need and what they want, most basic fishkeeping problems are solved at a stroke. Innes said himself all those years ago that the best way to proceed is to think like a fish - ask yourself "If I was this fish, what would I need? What would I want?".

Unfortunately, as you have no doubt become acutely aware in your travels, this simple axiom seems to have escaped the attention of many who should have taken it on board and who should be passing that axiom on.

The basic issue you are addressing here is a combination of acountancy driven myopia and ignorance. Be assured it is not a problem restricted to the pet industry - it is one that affects whole swathes of human activity like a plague. The trouble is, enlightening the individuals that matter in this vein is going to take some time.

Having taken a look at your website, I can find one small glitch. Stores will not be able to continue supplying responsible hobbyists such as you and I with ever more diverse varieties of fishes if they can't name a profit. If they don't, they cease to be, it's that ruthlessly simple. Therefore having as a headline "It's about the fish, not store profit" could backfire. After all, these people have to make a living!

A better way to go forward would be something like this:

"Put the fish first! The profit follows on from this!"

Then explain that if people are handed accurate information, guided properly into the world of fishkeeping, they stand more chance of becoming successful fishkeepers. The more successful fishkeepers there are in existence, the more profit the dealers will make because those successful fishkeepers become long term sources of income. Fast bucks don't last - paying customers that come back day in, day out, year in, year out, on the other hand, pay the rent.

It's actually in the interest of the dealers to get it right if you follow this line of reasoning. The way forward would be to bring them aboard and give them the guidance they need too - while acknowledging that they need to make a living. Explain to them that taking the long term view, devoting themselves to putting the fishes first, results in long term viability of their businesses.

With a view to this, how about putting this letter on your website:

Dear Sir,

It has come to my attention that some of the information presented by your organisation with respect to the maintenance of various fish species is, in fact, incorrect. For example, you cite Leporinus fasciatus as being a 7 inch fish when adult, and that it will live in a 10 gallon aquarum. Furthermore, you cite that it will benefit from the addition of salt to the aquarium. These three pieces of information are incorrect, and if followed, will result in a shortened lifespan for the fish. First, Leporinus fasciatus reaches 12 inches in length, and as a shoaling fish that should be kept in a group of 6, mandates the use of a 125 gallon aquarium as a baseline setup. Likewise, as an Amazonian fish, and a primary freshwater fish, it does NOT need salt in its water, indeed the addition of salt will stress the fish and contribute once again to a shortened lifespan.

Apart from the ethical issues surrounding animal husbandry, which should be addressed by all taking on the task, this misinformation is harmful to your business viability. If a newcomer to fishkeeping follows bad advice, and ends up suffering a hearbreaking loss (along with a hit to the wallet), the relationship with that would be customer is soured. Damage of that kind takes a long time to repair. Providing the newcomer with accurate information that allows that newcomer to become a successful fishkeeper, on the other hand, builds a constructive relationship and secures a new customer - one who, as a successful fishkeeper, will go on to become a long term customer supplying revenue over a period of years. It is, therefore, in your economic interest, as well as in the interest of the fishes you sell, to provide accurate information wherever possible. I therefore exhort you to ensure that such information as presented by your organisation is accurate, for everyone's mutual benefit. The biggest names in the industry achieved their position by taking this long term view - if they had simply pursued the transient 'fast buck', chances are they would not be enjoying their current standing (and enviable capitalisation value!). If you have aspirations for your own organisation to join them, I exhort you to consider the above with due care, and apply the suggestion above.

Yours faithfully,


Etc.

Give that a try. Provide the dealer with a carrot instead of hitting him with a stick, and you might find you achieve your objective a little quicker.



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Thank you for your interest. Constructive input is always greatly appreciated. Your letter's been added:

http://www.noclownsinacube.net/letter6.html

There are times I feel like the Accuracy In Information threads are becoming mini blogs. But, I hope that people appreciate our posts keeping them up-to-date with our thoughts, activities and calls to action.

Hopefully you read what is below, then go back up to the post above and send an e.mail or snail mail.

One of the individuals involved in the Accuracy In Information campaign found something on the Point-Of-Purchase signage that fascinates me. And, it reinforces, at least in my mind, the value of the approach www.noclownsinacube.net is taking. The item was an 800 number. The number does not lead back to PetSmart. Rather, it leads to a supplier of tags.

Buying from a third party does not relieve a retailer of responsibility for the information contained. The odds of hobbyists having any influence with someone we do not buy from are nil. The third party does not need to keep the ultimate consumer of the product advertised happy. All they need to do is keep their customers satisfied. Their customers being the retailers. By voicing our concerns to a specific retailer we can create an awareness of a problem that may not have previously existed.

PetSmart says it is the leader in the retail pet trade. They are a company that has very publicly committed themselves to Responsible Husbandry and Animal Welfare. As a leader with an ethical pet treatment agenda they can cause a change in signage to occur. An additional benefit of having that change occur as a result of PetSmart's commitment to animals is that the manufacturer of signage will be able to sell the "new and improved" signage to retailers throughout the retail trade. With a dedicated effort we can encourage one change that ripples from the mass merchandiser down to the local fish store level.

A single focus. A single change. An industry wide correction.

Send those letters. Keep it polite. Keep it dignified. Treat PetSmart with the same respect we provide our fish.

Further to the 800 number, there was also a company name. A quick search and a website was discovered along with an email address. I sent an email to the folks who supply the POP stuff asking them if these "sets" were readily available to independant fish sellers across North America. I also asked them who was responsible for the written content of the signage, specifically, Diet, Max Size, Tank size, etc. Does the graphics firm supply the retailer with this information, or does the retailer supply the graphics firm? Hopefully a response is forthcoming and that "niggling" question that is running around my brain will be answered. Lol!!

There are things that you can work to change. POP signage is one of them. We need retailers to provide accurate information.

Have you sent your letter this week?

We have samples you can use as is or borrow bits and pieces from and then compose your own.

www.noclownsinacube.net