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I have a paired couple of Angelfish in a 20 gal high tank.... After several weeks of going through the preliminary mating rituals, (though the move to the 20 gal tank only occurred last week - my Angels were already shaking, nipping one another and lip locking while still in the 55 gal community tank), we discovered eggs on the side of the glass just yesterday morning..... LOTS and LOTS of eggs! This morning, the eggs have been greatly reduced - a couple have dropped to the bottom, but we assume the parents have feasted on the majority - although to be honest, we have not witnessed them eating..... Regardless, now that spawning has been initiated I am sure from the little bit of information I've gathered online that this couple will continue to mate... and future spawns will result......
Unfortunately, I made a HUGE ERROR in my "preparation" for a breeding pair... To put it simply, I did not do enough research and so find myself ill-equipped! Herein is the reason for my thread.... To ask the questions which need to be answered --- whether it be to improve the chances of the current spawn and/or be ready for the next....
1) I've read that a 20 gal HIGH tank (like mine) is the MINIMUM size which can be safely used for Angelfish breeding purposes... Is this correct? (The reason I ask, is that I'm reading conflicting information on different sites.... Information regarding this has been anything from a 10 gal tank fulfilling the need to nothing less than a 30 gal)
2) I've noticed that since the spawning, my male adult Angel is showing a somewhat "frayed" mouth - I would assume from all the lip locking violence.... Do I need to treat this condition or is it just a case of letting nature take its' course? If I need to treat, what would I use? Do I need to isolate him or will it cause no harm to the eggs?
3) What are the prime tank conditions for the spawning & raising of fry? Only this morning I happened onto some information which stated that gravel should NOT be used as it's harmful to the fry once they become free swimming.... So, is having a bare tank the way to go? No decorations, no gravel?
4) I've also read that ONLY sponge filters should be used... Now I really don't have any experience with these, but plan to check them out today at my lfs... But also noted was the need to do 10%-90% water changes frequently... Frankly most things I've read deal with the situation of the Angels laying their eggs on slate, and while I'd supplied the tank with 2 large pieces of slate my Angels elected to lay their eggs on a seamed corner of the aquarium glass... very near the top... (maybe because the tank has gravel?) So if I do a water vac/change will having the eggs out of the water kill and/or harm the eggs?
5) Many times I've read that Angels are usually excellent parents and so there is no reason to remove them.... That although they may eat the eggs the first few times, eventually they come around and stop... But again, this morning I read that while the adults are good parents, once the fry become free swimming and progress in growth and age, the fry actually eat eggs subsequently laid by the parents and if the adults are not removed in about 5-6 weeks the fry will actually begin munching on the adults... I need to confirm this information to make plans at the appropriate time to remove the adults.....
6) The other aspect pertaining to question 5 is the suggestion to remove the adults after spawning. My question in this option is, WHEN do you remove the adults? Immediately? After the eggs hatch and the fry are free swimming? ?????
7) Can Ottos remain in a tank with eggs? I realize that Ottos are supposed to eat ONLY algae... however, I have read even in other threads at the FP site that they have been known to eat other things as well.... I know this will sound strange, but my 20 gal tank has never shown ANY signs of algae until after the Angels spawned --- but now I'm noticing brown spots at the back of the tank.....
8) I realize that you don't have to worry about feeding the fry until all are free swimming... And further, that the recommended diet is baby brine shrimp --- but do you also need to supplement that diet with anything else? (First Bites?)
9) How long is the average growth period until the fry reach the dime or nickel size? And do you change the filtration (from sponge to "regular"at some time during the growth period?
10) Could anyone provide a link to an indepth Angelfish informational site? So far, all I can find are question sites... dealing with the different aspects of Angels from the individual's needs perspectives.... I'd really like to find a site that pulls all of it together in a well written manner.... This is one of my greatest pleasures in fishkeeping -- to not only witness fish behavior, but to research it to gain a clearer understanding of what I'm seeing.....
I apologize for such a lengthy thread --- and the MANY questions... But I do strive to meet the needs of my fish and feel I need to do the best that I'm able to do in caring for them... Thanks for your patience, understanding and most of all information!
ps I have been looking for a book on Angelfish at my lfs, but so far NO LUCK! Once more living in a small community has definite drawbacks as well as pluses!

[span class="edited"][Edited by dreamweaver8891 2004-08-22 08:06][/span]

To thine own self be true...

First, congats on getting a pair.

Klee wrote an angelfish guide, it's on the American Cichlids forum. I don't know of any sites on Angels though I'm sure they are out there.

I've got 3 pairs of Angels and had 1 other that I sold as a pair. I've been breeding them for almost 2 years so I'll tell you what I think and you can read Klee's guide and go from there.

1) I have kept a pair in a 20 high but a 29 is better.
2) If it looks serious enough to need medication move him and medicate him or medicate in the tank and see what happens. It's only one batch of eggs and some are gone already. I don't like splitting pairs, though I have done it to see if one or the other would raise the fry alone because they wouldn't together.
3) I have substrate in all of mine (sand in one and gravel in the other two) but none of mine have raised fry to free swimming. The only thing I heard about gravel was that with an undergravel filter sometimes fry get sucked into the gravel and can't get out. I'm not sure I buy that though.
Once the eggs hatch the parents often move them, usually to a plant so some stuff, plastic plants or rocks should be in there for the adults to put the wigglers on. My fry tanks are bare because they are easier to clean.
4) I put a sponge over the intake of my power filter. I got some big yellow sponges at home depot that work great. I cut into them from the end with one of those retractable razor knives. I had to hold the hole open to go deep enough then I slipped it over the tube and rubber banded it at the top. Water changes are for after the fry are free swimming. I change the water in my fry tanks 2 or 3 times a week, 80-90%.
My Angels almost always lay their eggs on plastic Amazon Sword plants, the tall kind with individual leaves on long stems, not the short bunched ones. Though that is the kind they put the wigglers on after they hatch.
5) I have never had a pair of Angels raise a batch to free swimming but that's just my experience. It may be my fault because when I need a batch to raise I take the eggs out and hatch them myself, I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not. I only do that to each pair about once every 3 months so they have had ample opportunity to raise a batch but they always seem to eat them once they get about ready to swim.
6) Don't remove the adults, remove the eggs if you elect to go that way. I have a 5 gallon tank I hatch eggs in.
You need to have a sponge filter in one of your tanks so it's ready for when the fry become free swimming. Don't put it in with the eggs or wigglers before because the bacteria need ammonia and the eggs/wigglers produce little if any.
Fill the tank with new water the same temp as the tank they were laid in. Dechlorinate and add 3-4 drops of METHYBLU, if it's a 5 gallon tank.
Get an air pump, tubing and an airstone. Hook it up and weight the stone so it sits on the bottom of the tank.
Pull the leaf or slate that the eggs are on, if it's a leaf wrap the stem around a rock and rubber band it while it's still in the water. Move the eggs to the hatching tank. I just walk them across the room, doesn't seem to hurt them. Adjust the positions of the leaf/slate and the airstone so that the bubbles keep the water moving over the eggs. If eggs are falling off it's too close but the leaf should be moving.
Some of the eggs may turn white and even get fuzzy. Some people recommend removing the but I don't. In a couple days they'll hatch into wigglers and 5 days after that they'll start swimming. So start the Brine shrimm hatchery on day 4. If wigglers seem tangled in the fuzz that sometimes grows on the white eggs don't panic, they'll get loose once they are swimming.
Once they are free swimming feed them and put in the sponge filter.
Do a water change 2 or three times a week.
I move them to a bigger tank (10gal.)after about 2 weeks, move the sponge filter with them.
Once they start to look like angels I add a small power filter but leave the sponge in there as well.
At some point, probably about a month or 6 weeks, depending on the number of fry, you will have to move them to an even bigger tank. At this point it's okay to use an undergravel if you want.
I feed mine Baby brine shrimp for a couple months sometimes I give them FIRST BITES or FRY BITES if a hatch of shrimp is slow. I also keep frozen baby brine shrimp on hand in case a hatch is really slow.
After a couple months I switch them over to crushed flakes and crushed dried bloodworms.
Figure 3 months to dime size.


Good luck, Mike

1) Yes, some breed smaller pairs in a 10 but pull the spawns before they hatch. A 20 allows the pair enough space to parent raise the fry for about a week or so past freeswimming before they get overcrowded.

2) If the damaged mouth does not heal fast, get the male to a QT tank and treat with WCs, salt, Melafix and Pimafix.

3) Gravel is a problem for wigglers as they can become "lost" in the gravel if they wiggle off the nursery site. Uneaten BBS can easily pollute the tank in a gravel bottom tank. With careful feeding and husbandry, fry can be parent raised in a tank with substrate. Most breeders opt for BB convenience/efficiency.

4) Fine pore sponge filters will not trap fry. Powerfilters can easily produce too much current and unless fitted with a prefilter over the intake strainer, will suck up freeswimming fry. I have found that turning the Aquaclear to low and fitting it with a finepore sponge prefilter works fine.

5) Not all will parent raise. Some pairs never get it right. Yes, at about two weeks post freeswimming, the fry began to chomp on the adults sides and fins. I move the fry then or sooner.

6) More eggs or fry, not the pair.

7) Probably depends on the protective nature of the pair. I have a pair that effectively defends its spawn in a 90 community tank against all comers, yet in a 20, let a BN eat the eggs. If you wanna try, leave a night light on to protect against possible nightime egg raids.

8) Just freshly hatched BBS until big enough to start slowly weaning over to flake food.

9) About 8 weeks to saleable size as I recall.

10) Soon...

A few good angelfish info sites to get you started:

http://www.angelsplus.com/

http://webrbiz.com/angelfish/amh.html

http://www.finarama.com/home.htm

http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/

http://www.geocities.com/river_angels/angellinks.html

I want to thank all of you for your kind responses, but mostly for the information you provided! Unfortunately, my husband and I did attempt a water change last weekend - and I would imagine because the eggs were temporarily out of the water - they ALL turned white and fuzzy and pretty much looked spent..... So we scraped them off the glass and look forward to the next spawning - now that we're more prepared! (And again I thank each and everyone of you for the info to make this possible!)
I believe my Angels will be good parents because as I was scraping the eggs off the glass with a plastic spoon - both parents charged the spoon with GREAT force! I was really taken aback at the sheer strength! My heart did weep as my confused parents-to-be continued to search and guard the place where the eggs had been attached.... This behavior continued for a day or so, but now they seem to be getting back to the mating ritual.... Starting to nip at least ---- haven't seen the body shake or lip lock, but I'm sure it won't be long.....
I do have one more question though ---- why do you remove the free swimming fry rather than the adults? Is it because if the adults are returned to the community tank setting they will definitely be territorial and/or agressive towards their tank mates now that they have spawned?

To thine own self be true...

If you Angels are raising the fry you don't need to remove either one until the fry start harrassing the adults.

You could move the pair if you wanted. It might throw them off a little as far as breeding. I pull eggs and move wigglers because I don't want to disturb my breeders. It's also alot easier to feed fry in a smaller tank.

Good luck, Mike