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I have definitely been bitten by the fishkeeping bug!

I'm brand new to fishkeeping and I currently have a 3+ week old 20gal with 6 tiger barbs. My next plan is for a 55 gal setup. I am currently looking through the classifieds, and have my feelers out for something used. I know there's some great deals out there for someone willing to be patient (yes, I am willing to be patient lol)

My game plan is to find the 55g tank and all the necessary equipment and wait to set it up until the 20 gal is well stabilized and cycled. I dont want to be cycling and messing with two brand new setups at once (again, patience, I am learning!)

Some questions:

HOB or Cannister filtrations best for 55g?

Should I turn my existing 20g tank into a QT tank, then start a new 20g to replace it (after all, I can't just have one viewing/hobby tank and I cannot go without a QT tank!)?

My tap water pH is at 8. Should I try to lower that pH and stabilize it from the start, or just go with it?

Thanks in advance for any comments!

Of course you should get another 20g. Why bother to ask?

As for ph consider what your putting in the tank and what you want to do with it. If you are just doing a community tank with the fish you normally find at local stores then it's not necessary to mess with the ph. If you are getting more sensitive fish that have been kept in acidic waters from sources like the internet or other hobbyists then it might be a good idea. Also decide if you want to breed the fish which would include deciding whether you want a species tank with 1 type of fish you can spawn or a community tank with multiple species. A fish that survives great in hardwater still may not spawn as well in hardwater. Then if you do decide you need to lower the ph(it's a pain) think about whether the fish you are getting are already in low ph water or in your usual hardwater. Fish already in hardwater will acclimate better if you go ahead and put them in a tank full of hardwater and then start to do water changes with softer water instead of acclimating them all at once to a tank with completely different water. Personally I found it to be such a headache I'm planning pretty much all my future tanks to include fish that will happily spawn in hardwater. Only my little(I consider anything under 55 small) 20g is going to be diluted with RO. That way I only have to come up with about 3g of RO and 2g of well water for water changes.

What you decide to stock the tank with as well as any other considerations like plants and amount of funds available will also determine the best filtration.

A couple great places to find used tank setups cheap are
Your local Craigs List, Freecycle and your local penny saver. I found mine on Craiglist. Its a 55 gallon, came complete with great stuff and a gorgeous wood stand. It was nearly new, super clean and only 100.00! Cant beat that with a stick. LOL

Scott welcome to the world of MTS, feel free to copy the banner in my sig as it is a free use one. your plans sound great as for HOB's vs Cannister, I use an HOB and an internal filter. Don't have much, actually any, experience with cannisters. As for the filtration I get I have clear water, good test results.

As for the QT tank of course you should get a new tank setup for it.

mts.gif" border="0"> I vote do you?
My Tanks at Photobucket

Scott, I have a 55gal. with all common fish, live bearers & egglayers. My PH is 7.6 & all my fish appear happy & healthy, always having fry & laying eggs. They all get ate though, which is fine with me.

I have a regent HOB filter from wal-mart, the one for a 55 gal. with the two slots for filter pads. It has served me well with no problems & my water is always clear. But then I do a large water change with a 1/4 gravel vac. every week, as I have a large bio load from taking in unwanted fish. I highly recommend you get a python when you get a 55g.
I know nothing about canister filters.

I wish you good luck with your new hobby, which you WILL have if you stay with this site & follow the good advice that is given here.

ScottF,

How is the cycling coming? I see you have increased your fish to 6 from the 2 you had. Did you get rid of the Ick? Fishkeeping is definately addicting and is so worth it. I can't wait to start shopping for my new 75g tank!

BTW, my ammonia finally read ZERO yesterday! Just waiting on the big zero on the nitrites. I think my QT tank will be done cycling soon also, then it will time to start shopping. Just a few at a time, of course (hence the patience you referenced).

I have always used an HOB filter and have never had any water quality issues. I have always heard also that you shouldn't mess with Ph unless absolutely necessary. Drastic changes in Ph can harm your fish and kill them quick.

Sure use the 20g as a QT and get a new one....just think of the varieties of fish you can fill those tanks with!

Good luck finding your new 55g!

If your doing hobs on a 55 I'd do 1 on either side of the brace. Even if you just do a smaller one on the 2nd side. It makes a big difference even if you don't realize it at first. I ran 2 penguin 330s. However there are exceptions which is why I said stocking matters. If you stock with fish that really dislike high flow, aren't all that messy, and don't require high aeration(gouramis are possibly one of those) then you might be better off with 1 filter. Also if you do a planted tank you might be better off with 1 filter or a cannister to minimize surface agitation and maximize co2. If you go with river fish then you'll not only need 2 filters but probably a powerhead or 2 with it. See it makes a difference. Choose stock first and then design the filtration around them.

Gotta admit with a 55 I'd go for an eheim 2224 or larger if you have the cash. Cant beat 10 times the bacterial media space over an equivalent hob. In my book, media space and multiple levels of filtration beat a high flow rate anyplace, anytime.Not that eheims have what you'd call a low flow rate...

With a big chambered external filter you could almost double the stocking levels compared to those expected of a hobs performance, handy if you dont happen to have the cash for all-out MTS. Its also tends to not send plants spinning round the tank, and as for oxygenation, I reckon on average more is better. Never caused me any trouble with plants. Mind you I seem to be able to grow plants that others swear you need co2 for. Its a mystery

Plus I like the fact that your average eheim is designed to run for at least 10 years. Porsche or Daihatsu. I'd never go back, but its up to you!

Hi Scott:

As for finding used and inexpensive equipment - I don't know where in Ohio you are located, but this state has some fantastic aquarium clubs! Just google and see what comes up. Usually these clubs have classifieds where members and non-members con post fish, plants, equipment they want to sell/are looking for. They also have regular swap meetings where you can get equipment and awesome deals on plants and fish. Not to mention the chance to discuss your new hobby with other equally inclined people.

If you subscribe to TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist), a great magazine BTW, they also have listings of aquarium societies. One of the most distinguished members of this site even published an interesting article there

Just a little addition:

I totally agree with Longhairedgit re. Eheim filters anD the comparison Porsche/Daihatsu, very appropriate in my experience.
HOB are great for smaller tanks, but for a 55 g I would always go with a canister (from Eheim). Right now good deals are available online as the company just brought out a new line of filters, so the prices for the older models went down a bit (just don't buy them in stores - WAY too expensive!)

Man, a TON of great info, thanks so much gang! Git/Cat I checked out the Eheim 2224 at Liveaquaria.com and they've got 'em on sale... Perhaps I need to grab one now, ya know, just in case the right 55g tank comes along!

And thanks also for the suggestion on the aquarium societies, Cat. Are you in Ohio as well??

I can't wait to start accumulating stuff for the next tank. I really love the idea of the sand substrate. I have some really great rocks I've picked up here and there that would go great in a sand set up...

I've got it baaaaad and that aint good!

(Jim, thanks for the Avatar, lol)

Your welcome for the avatar. If you are going for the cannister Might I also suggest a UV sterilizer? I currently have a small problem in my 55 (See my thread in the hospital) And I have decided to switch to the Cannister and UV sterilizer myself.

It will drastically reduce your Ick problem, and my own.


mts.gif" border="0"> I vote do you?
My Tanks at Photobucket

My two cents...

On my 55g, and on the 75gwheneverIfinishthestinkingstandandgetitgoing, I run the Rena Filstar xP3 canister filter - You can pick it up for $110 from petsolutions...it's not quite on the same class as an Eheim, mind, but I have been perfectly happy with mine, and a coworker has been running xp's on his cichlid tanks for years without any problems with them.

I advise lowering the ph, personally. My studies have showing that a more acidic ph is better for most fish, and most plants thrive in it (because when you get into the bigger tank, I give you all of 3-4 months before you start asking us about plants! ).

One thing to keep in mind - substrate for a 55 can be expensive. Decide now, ahead of time, if you're going to eventually plant the tank or not. If you are, start considering nutrient-rich substrates such as flourite, eco-complete, or one of the other alternatives. If not one of these, then you need to consider the actual size of the gravel pieces, or if you go with sand, the size of the grain of sand because the size of the substrate bits will control what plants you can go with in many cases (especially stem plants).

The type of substrate you get will also eliminate some bottom feeder fish choices. Example, many catfish and loaches prefer a sandy, small-size-granule substrate due to the sensitivity of their barbels. Some cichlids, such as rams, and some loaches and other fish, like to dig in sand, or dig out pits to lay eggs. One thing you have to watch with sand, though, is that it's easily displaced during gravel vacuums, fish swimming/tussling, water changes, and if your filter pipe is too close to the surface of the sand the filter will suck it up.

And for the love of Pete do not get colored, fake gravel, or you'll run into a longterm problem like clownygirl has, where after the gravel coating and coloring starts to break down, the gravel itself deteriorates and starts changing your water chemistry. Plus, natural substrate looks better.

Ok, so maybe you got more like a buck eighty six there.

Listen! Do you smell that?

If you like sand and want to grow plants I suggest eco complete. Not quite sand but more like a grainy soil. Still closer to sand than gravel and you treat it like sand(no sticking a gravel vac down into it just siphon the top and stir) but it grows plants great and doesn't have the compaction issues that sand does. Sand requires very frequent stirring and can still compact around the plants to the point the roots don't spread well. I also have not kept any bottom feeders(cories, loaches, plecos, hillstream loaches...) that disliked it so it would not limit your fish choice any except for maybe a few really specific oddball fish. EC is rather expensive but I was just pricing florite and found it to cost the same.

Rena filters are good if you want a cannister but don't have money for an eheim. They'd probably be my next choice above fluvals. For a dirt cheap cannister you can get a jebo odyssea but they have maybe a 2-5 year lifespan where an eheim might out last you. There are some really old eheims out there that are still running strong but they do cost a fortune as far as filters are concerned.

UV sterilizers are questionable. Plenty of people would argue against them but not having joined in those arguments I can't tell you any specifics. I suggest more research before you consider one.

Scott:

I am in Illinois,I know about the Ohio clubs because I checked for a colleague who is in OH and some of the vendors/hobbyists from Ohio show up at our swap meets. They tell great stories about the Ohio clubs! Here my thoughts about the filter debate: Rena Filstar versus Eheim. I have them both. The first I will never ever buy again, the latter always. It is really Porsche versus Daihatsu and there are several reasons that Filstar is cheap. I wanted to save money and went for the cheap solution and promptly came to regret it. It filters but the material is shoddy and the parts fit rather loosely and come apart easily, priming is NOT a breeze! If you can afford it, IMHO the Eheim is the way to go. Also, I suggest you check eBay - there are a lot of very dependable pet stores selling brand new merchandise but at a price that is super competitive as these guys do not have to cover for the overhead regular stores have to do. When I bought my big Eheim I saved $200!

Eco-complete is a wonderful substrate and I just bought 6 bags to redo my 72 G tank with it. Not inexpensive, but I hope worth the money. I also have flourite but do not like the color as much - most vendors sell only the red variety and I prefer dark. For some people risning is also an issue.

Hope this helps and have fun with your tanks!

Catdancer: really? I've had my filstar for about 3 months or so now, and I haven't had any problems with it once I figured out the trick to priming it. And yeah, there is a trick. But then, I don't have an eheim to compare it to.

I got mine because it was a very inexpensive route, I got it on sale at pet* with a coupon for $75, and I like it - I'd like to have an eheim but the filstar is really more in my price range. And like I said, I haven't had any issues with it....so far. And I got a lot of good recommendations for it.

I guess it's a case of individual experiences. I just offered up that opinion for Scott as an alternative, because I know eheims can cost some coin.

And I meant to mention earlier, Scott, DON'T BUY RETAIL! liveaquaria/fostersmith are great, but EXPENSIVE! You can find it elsewhere cheaper!

Listen! Do you smell that?

Lysaer:

Unfortunately, I wish I could say otherwise!
Glad to hear that you are happy with yours but there is a reason for the price difference and the earlier mentioned comparison between Porsche and Daihatsu is right on. Good thing to discuss this here in this forum so people can make decisions of their own! I do not want to turn into an advertiser for a certain company, just telling my experience as I happen to have both. The Filstar is probably okay for soeone who starts out in the hobby and is not so sure if he want to stick with it and to what extend, aside the price issue. Otherwise, in the long run, better equipment is worth the investment - just upgraded my lighting and I could still do smething to my LFS for selling me the less expensive option


The best case scenario for Scott would be to get some lightly used equipment from someone else as he really needs a lot to get started. And yes, Online is the way to buy!

Scott , Hi . Just my 2c worth on the cannister debate . I would have a look at the new Fluval FX5 . Its a fantastic piece of gear and reasonably priced .
I found Eheims to be less than efficent and very difficult to prime . The Fluval is self priming .

I'd back up Lysaer's comments as well . Sort out your plans in full now , even if it delays the startup of the tank .
I took 3months from seeing the tank I wanted to actually getting it wet . Part of that was negotiating with the wife though

Good luck .
Garry

Cannister debates can get heated. However from reading and participating in many different debates from several different forums fluvals do not come in the top. They are the least efficient of the cannister filters with quite a bit of media bypass. They had one of the highest rates of breaking down or refusing to prime of all the better quality cannisters(ignoring the dirt cheap ones like odyssea). They also only come in about middle for noise level by most people who have compared them. The new stage 5 fluvals do seem to be slightly better than previous models. The rena filters are definitely more efficient with a better path for the water flow through the media and about equivalent in noise. I also only found 1 or 2 people that had them break down and most didn't have issues with priming. Eheims almost always come out the top with a few complaints on priming issues but never a complaint on noise and extremely rare for them to break. They also have the most efficient filtration with the best flow through the media of pretty much any other cannister. It comes down to how much your willing to spend but personally out of those 3 I'd go with eheim first, renas second, and fluvals third.

I was researching the filters, and pricing them. LiveAquaria.com had the Eheim 2224 on sale for $99.00 down from $149.00 I didn't jump as I am not ready to start buying equipment yet. I probably should have grabbed it but I didn't.

I sure do appreciate all the great feedback on filters, substrates, etc... This site is really helpful that way!