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You dont need to do water changes every day ... most suggest a 20% every 2 weeks (after the cycle is done). I do them a bit more often as im usually bored at 2-4 am and there is nothing but reruns on.

Dont mess with changing your water parameters ... ask your fish store which day they get shipments in on ... then go to purchase fish the day before the shipment arrives ... this will ensure your best chance of getting hardy, thriving fish. Any fish that are surviving in their tanks on that day should be able to handle your parameters. They may not breed in it but most species now can accept any parameters ... also your fish stores probably have the same water parameters as you. Later once you get addicted you may want to try species suited to your parameters.

Another option to cycle faster is find out if a friend or a small fish store will let you have some of the gravel from their tanks. Just a handful or 2 will introduce all the types of bacteria and really accelerate the cycle.

I dont remember the size of tank you said ... but you should add something like 4-5 zebra danios or 3 goldfish to the tank. These are both known to be pretty good cyclers ... Once you are only getting nitrAte readings then you know your tank is cycled ... remove unwated fish and put the same number same size new fish in ... wait 2 weeks then you can add 1-2 fish every 2 weeks until you are stocked.

Im not a fan of the product called cycle ... in order to keep bacteria alive without food they would need to be a mutated strain ... i dont really like mutants in my tanks.

A normal cycle usually takes a month to 1.5 months. Adding fish too fast can also cause mini-cycles that last for a day to a week.

For unwated fish i usually feed them to my oscars or turtles ... another method i like is to put them in a large glass with tank water then put it in the freezer ... as the temp becomes colder they go into dormancy and then asleep .. they wont feel it when they freeze. Leave in freezer for a day then thaw out and flush. That way you can feed the sewer gators <g>.

I would recommend you check around for a mom and pop fish store ... prices are usually alot better than chains and you get to talk to a knowledgeable aquarist, not to mention make a friend ... its well worth the extra drive to find one.

One other thing is aquarium salt will usually help to wipe out ick, dont use table salt its not the same thing. Carbon isnt needed in the home aquarium ... And Melafix is a great overall med. Between Melafix and salt there is nothing i havent been able to cure in my tanks.

Bdadawg

Sneaky_Pete, I don't think that is it. Mine doesn't have wiskers and mine seems to be much more of a silver color. Mine also seems to be skinnier than the one in your picture.

On to my tests. I had an ammonia test from when I bought the tank. No nitrAte or nitrIte yet. I did the ammonia test and my options on the test sheet were 0, .5-1.5, 2-5, 7 and up.

The color I got was in between the 1.5 to 2 range. It said I should put some ammo-lock in, but I wanted to see what you guys had to say first. I am getting the impression that adding any chemicals to the tank is not good.

Thanks for all of the help guys. At least I got through one night with no deaths in the tank.

Don

Well the ammonia is why your fish are dying, most fish cannot handle the ammonia spike that occurs during the cycle. Honestly I'd consider returning the fish you have, do some more research and start over again.

Even if the fish don't die, they're being seriously stressed as an after effect of the cycle.

EDIT: Ammolock will help neutralize the ammonia, however the next stage of the cycle, the nitrIte spike is just as bad if not worse, and so it wont really help the fish...again I stress the importance of taking these back and purchasing some more cycle hardy fish.

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Last edited by Babelfish at 31-Dec-2004 09:03

Ok,

I went to the fish store at lunch time. They said they cannot take back the fish since they have been in my tank for a couple of days.

I picked up a nitrIte and nitrAte test. As soon as I get home from work, I will do these two tests and post the results. Is there any chance I will be able to get this water right and keep the fish I have? If I have to make the smallest adjustments possibe, I would rather do that. If it means not getting any more fish for a long time, that is OK, I would just don't want to hurt the fish I have.

About these tests: Do I need to do them every time I change my water? I'm sure there are directions in the box, but I'd also like to hear what you guys do.

Sorry for all the questions and you don't know how much I appreciate the help.

Thanks,
Don

Not a problem, asking is the best way to learn.

1. No you wont need to do all the tests every single time you change your water. Once the Tank is cycled it generally stays that way. Many people still test for ammonia as it's the first warning that something might be wrong in the tank. PH is also commonly tested.

2. Kick that LFS, I'd try talking to the manager or whatever it takes, push the point that you want to keep doing business with them but you made a mistake and need something that's more appropriate for the tank you have.

3. I'll be honest, the fish might not make it. If you do small partial water changes then yes it'll lower the ammount of ammonia and nitrItes in the water, but it'll also lengthen the ammount of time the fish are under stress.

I'd suggest purchasing some Cycle while you're @the store, ask if you can trade the fish for it.... What Cycle is is a product containing the bacteria that you're trying to grow in your tank to consume the ammonia and nitrIte. While it won't work overnight like its counterpart BioSpira it is easily available everywhere (I believe I've read that biospira isnt in production anymore this year), can be stored without refridgeration and is generally cheaper.

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Wow, that was a lot of $$ for a test I only have to do a couple of times. Twenty five bucks for the two. Well, I guess when I do decide to get a larger tank (it is still in my plans despite this problem) I will neeed to test this.

My PH is what started this entire thing. It was very high. What is the best way to lower it without chemicals? I think someone said they set up another tank with just water. Then get this water perfect and put in the tank with fish when they do a change. Is that a good idea? If so, can I just use a regular 5 gallon bucket?

It wasn't just a fish store, it was a chain pet store, so I don't think arguing with them will help. There is a store that is just fish about 5 minutes from where I live. I went in there, but the selection of fish was not as large as the chain store. I will probably start going there as it is right in my town. If I can get to know them, it will most likly be more personal service.

If it takes longer, that is Ok. If I can nurse the fish through this, that would be great.

I will try and pick up some 'Cycle' on the way home tonight.

Thanks,
Don

You'll need it more than just a few times , think of it as an insurance policy you dont want to have to use it but its good to have for when you do need it. Master test kits are genearally a much better value for the money $25 for everything (some have 2 ph rather than the nitrAte).

Yes get to know your Local Fish Store (LFS) they're often more willing to work with you than most LCPS, also most of them will be willing to order in whatever you may want. Keep talking to the chain, I was able to exchange a few fish because they had them in stock and I wanted to exchange for products (rather than a refund).

I'ts better to not change the Ph, ways of lowering ph inclued peat inserts that you can put in your filter, Click [link=here]http://www.bigalsonline.com/search/?type=catalog&method=all&collection=sitebuilder%2Fcatalog3-1&keywords1=peat&x=0&y=0" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] and driftwood. However as you do water changes with tap water it's obviously going to continue to rise so you'll need to continually moniter and ajust. If the LCPS doesn't take the fish back, see if you can talk to your LFS, explain that your ph is too high and you need different fish (go ahead admit the mistake they might help out ) Then flip thru the profiles on this site for fish that are fine in your water.

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Ok guys here are my nitrAte and nitrIte readings, hold onto your hats....

nitrIte: very red results >1
nitrAte: pretty red, I would say in between 20 and 50, closer to the 50 color

The directions say I should change 20% of the water every day. Is this true? If so, I don't understand how that would work. If I take out the water that is already in, and put in new water, won't the readings just be the same?

I lost all the fish except one over this weekend. The only one left is my angel fish. He must have ice in his veins because he has been with me through all of this.

What should my plan of attack be?

Thanks
Don

Changing the water will dilute the nitrates and nitrites in the water currently because the water you remove will have those high levels, while the water you replace it with should be free of those.

I bet the shark you got is a "columbian shark"
Is this it?
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile63.html
If this is the fish you got, it reaches 14 inches or larger, and is actually a catfish.
I would likely snack on any small fish you get in the near future.
I would recommend if this is your fish to return it to the pet store. It needs at least a 75 gallon tank.


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Thanks for the explanation.

Do I need to do the two tests every time I change my water until it gets to be OK? Today is my normal change day, so should I check it after I change the water, or let it sit for a couple of days?

Thanks for all of the help,
Don

you should add something like 4-5 zebra danios or 3 goldfish to the tank.

The zebra danios I agree with. The goldfish though! Please don't do it! Three goldfish is not a good way to cycle your tank, for all kinds of reasons.

For unwated fish i usually feed them to my oscars or turtles ... another method i like is to put them in a large glass with tank water then put it in the freezer ... as the temp becomes colder they go into dormancy and then asleep .. they wont feel it when they freeze.

Oh boy oh boy you've opened a can of worms here, Bdadawg. Please don't ever buy a fish with the intention of killing it unnecessarily. Feeders are one thing, but to buy a fish then deliberately kill it by freezing... *shakes head in sorrow*

Don, you seem to be the kind of guy who cares about the fate of your fish so I imagine you'll make your own judgement on this one and I won't harp on about it.

Meanwhile back to the topic... I take it you're cycling your tank with the angel still in it? It's tough on the angel but if there's nowhere else for the poor fish to go then you have no choice. Don't add more fish until the cycle has progressed. More fish = more ammonia = harder on the fish. Take it slow.

I would suggest you do the ammonia and nitrite tests every day so you can keep a close eye on your cycle. And it's the only way you're going to get value for money out of that ammonia test, right?!

By the way, congratulations on your patience and determination so far. I'm sure you'll find this hobby much more challenging than you first expected, but also much more rewarding.

Whet in my town there is not a fish store. Actually it is over 45 mins south and 2 hours north before you find one that will even accept fish from the home aquarist, to the east is mountains ... its a 2 hr drive just to get to wyoming, and to the west is the GSL and then salt flats for another 2 hrs.

As a result i often end up with other peoples fish. I currently have 6 tanks set up and 5 more in the garage. Most of the people know that i will take their fish if the tanks come with them so i do end up with alot of unwanted fish. Before i had the oscars and turtles i had to cull alot of fish as they had genetic defects that i didnt want in my tanks. Humped backs, messed up bodies, screwed up mouths, parasites, and e to ick. Then thre is the whole progression through the tanks. I started out with danios guppies and mollies, and have now progressed to SA tank, Peacock tank, Endler tank, turtle tank, and 2 feeder tanks, through the progression i did have fish that i no longer wanted, however at the time i bought them i did want them, with the exception of fish used to cycle.

I was simply giving a good euthanizing method if TK chose to use fish to cycle the tank.

Ive had up to 15 tanks in my garage at a time, i go through repair them (if needed) and then resale them or give them away. I tend to keep anything over 29g as i never know when i may get fish given to me that i actually want.

I got the turtle tank the same way. Someone thought they would look cool in their little garden pond, i asked them what they were going to do with them once the ground froze (which would completely freeze the pond). So i now keep them in the colder months and they are reintroduced to the pond during the warmer ones.

So please dont jump to conclusions, I seldom cull anything immediately upon receiving it. Most of my family keeps fish tanks so i try to see if they want healthy populations of whatever fish or reptile has been given to me. If i cant move the fish then i have to use them as feeders. There is not enough interest locally to open a fish shop and my electricity bill is alread over $80 a month with my reptile and fish tanks.

Bdadawg

TKF: I hope things are going better in your tank now. Still got that Angelfish?

If your local fish store (LFS) won't do trade in's at all, that's often not a good sign, might want to shop else where for your fish if possible.
And another thing, 90% of the people you speak to at fish stores or pet stores, don't know what they are talking about. So take anything they tell you with a grain of salt!

Hey Don, you are doing really well!

I know its incredibly frustrating and daunting to start with, especially when we start getting technical on you

Your son, how old is he?

Bala sharks look less like sharks as they age, so maybe you might be best off going with something like a flying fox group or some SAE as both look sharkey and both stay small

For now though, until we get things settled, i'd wait and just get to know your angel.

The fish store you go to, is it the same one with the man and woman?

Here is a photo of one of my SAE. they are wonderful algae eaters and don't grow much longer than 5".




Callatya attached this image:


For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Wow, thanks everyone....that is a lot to digest.

Callatya, my son's are 8 and 5. I think they just like saying they have a shark at home. I could probably get a guppy and tell them it's a shark and they would be ok with that. I wouldn't do that to them, but that is the reasoning behind getting a shark.

So I guess here is what my schedule will be (please feel free to modify where necessary)

First off, the angel fish is still hanging in, and I have no where else to put him so:

1. Since it seems everyone says that changing water everday is not necessary, I will do it every Monday.

2. I will check nitrAte and nitrIte a couple of hours after changing the water.

3. No fish will be added until my readings are acceptable. I don't even want to try the zebras until I have a better chance of them surviving.

4. I won't worry about PH. It seems the other two tests are more important.

Thanks again everyone, this entire exsperience more than I expected, but with all this help, I will get there.

Don

Sorry if I offended you Bdadawg... I really wasn't jumping to any conclusions about your fish-keeping experience or skills. I didn't mean to imply that you're un-caring about your fish (your stories would indicate the opposite). It's just that one issue of recommending that Don buys a fish for the sole purpose of cycling his tank, then kills it by freezing...

This is already a complex thread with all the issues Don is facing and I don't want to confuse him further by going off on a tangent. Maybe we should begin another thread to discuss the best fish for cycling a tank and their 'disposal' afterwards?

In Don's case he already has an angel in there, so adding danios (potentially nippy) or gold fish (a cold water species) are both ill-advised. So this issue of cycling is a mere distraction. :%) I'll drop it now.

Ok guys, here is my latest update. Two water changes since last posting, one Thursday and one today. I didn't bother doing any of the tests on Thursday because I didn't think that much would change.

Here are the results from today:
nitrIte - last time was deep red (>1) this time light purple right around .2 yeah for me

nitrAte - last time deep red (over 50) this time still red but not as deep. It still in the 50 range though.

Is twice a week enough times to change the water or should I be doing it more (or less)?

My angel fish is still hanging in there and I am in no huury now to add more. It has only been one week and my nitrItes are getting much better and my nitrAtes seem to be on their way.

Thank you all for getting me going. I guess I have a few more weeks to a couple of months before I get to where I want to be.

Next change will be Thursday unless you guys say otherwise.

Thanks,
Don

Thanks everyone.

From what you are all saying, I think I may have a problem. My tank is only 29 gallons. I will go back to the store and double check the name of the shark, because the lady said it would only get to be about 6 to 8 inches. I told her I had a 29 gallon tank and she said that would be fine. Nothing was mentioned about needing more than one.

I am not up to snuff on the entire cycling thing. I am going to get all of the testing things I need this weekend (ammonia, nitrAte, and nitrIte). As soon as I get the results, I will post them.

Thanks again,
Don

Can you give us water quality readings from your tank. Ammonia, nitrIte, nitrAte Ph ect.

Your LFS might not have the best stock, you need to check the tanks carefully when you buy the fish. Also drive home carefully and keep the temp consistant by using a styro box to bring them home in.

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