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CPR is a brand name.Bought mine from Pet Solutions.Go to thier site and you can see a pic of it.

You need one pump, that stays in the sump to pump water back into the tank, and then you also need an overflow which hangs on the back of the tank since your tank is not drilled. I think some HOB overflows also need a pump for the overflow, but Im not 100% certain because I've never set one up. Here are some to look at though. http://www.aquacorals.com/ShopOverflows.htm

In fact, I should probably set up a fuge myself, but I'm lazy.

Hopefully someone who knows what they are talking about joins in

on the sump*

oh i mean just somewhere to put extra LR. Anyways, so i have to buy two of the same pumps? Im sort of nervous on one the sump overflowing.

You need an overflow(Since your tank isn't drilled), and then you'll need a pump with the same flow as the overflow to pump water back into the tank. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by an area to quarantine LR?

Im building a sump/refugium out of an old tank i have. I have everything planned out, but so far i dont really know...what goes into it...im putting the excisting protien skimmer i have on my tank in it, im putting bioballs in a section, and i have a quarentine space for live rocks, overgrown hermit crabs, a mangrove plant, and things such as that. What else is there supposed to be in there?Also i dont have a solid idea on how the water is going to be pumped in and out of the tank.I NEED HELP!

Wow. Today i went to the beach and its cool cuz there waz sum kinda....protien skimming goin on there. The waves would turn up the water and form foam and then the foam would be washed up onto shore and all of it collected there. The foam looked very much like the one in my protien skimmer.

Turn over rate will depend a lot of what type of corals you are keeping.

In another thread I think Nate said is turnover is in the area of 50x per/hr.

If you were to build your own overflow, the way to determine the gph is to use the calculator at http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/drain.php. It requires you to determine what you want for a gph first, then it will tell you what size drain hole you will need. The thing to worry about here is that if it says you need 1.5" drain, you can't substitute two .75" and get the same gph. You actually have to have like two 1.25" drains to equal one 1.5".

John

this stuff gets to confusing, but i do get about the pump gph being lower than the overflow gph

So after an overflow is created, how is it possible to get an overflow that tanks water out as fast as it gets pumped to the sump? This idea is just confusing the heck out of me.

Just for clarification, and others please correct me if I am wrong. Your overflow is not pumped to your sump, it is brought there by syphoning action. When your return pump pushes water to the main tank, the water is replaced in the sump through the overflow. There is no need to worry about pumping your sump dry if the flow rate of your overflow is greater than the pump rate of your pump. In example, your overflow is rated at 1250gph and your return pump is rated at 1000gph (for your head height). Your overflow will only allow 1000gph to match the water being displaced from your sump with the return pump, resulting in a one to one exchange.
As I understand it, problems will arise when you use a return pump with a greater pump rate than what your overflow can provide, such as if you reversed the aforementioned values. If you had an overflow rated at 1000gph and a return pump rated at 1250gph (for your head height), you would pump dry your sump. Hope this helps.

John

If you have Live rock get rid of the Bio-balls.The BB will just produce nitrate too fast!

Yes you are correct. The flow over = in. The reason is the water is pushed over a lip on the overflow and that is the volume that the pump is returning to the tank.
A syphon tube alone will draw out water at the rate the line can handle but on an over flow box the volume will only be the excess that is above the intake.my CPR stays primmed at the help of an aqualifter pump to keep air bubbles from breaking the syphon when the return punp is off. Clear as mud right????

Thanks ,thanks and more thanks.Posts like those are the reason I like this site.I have very little knowledge of this trade and never claim to know it.My posts are IMO from the studying I have completed.In my line of work it is the same.There are a 1k ways to achieve the same thing.As an amature I feel apt to believe what I read or hear from accomplished aquarists.But it seems I have forgotten to take information with a grain of salt.Your the first I have heard "argue" for lack of a better word,this side of filtration.Thanks for that.Your points and results make a great case for this.

I am in the process of redesigning my sump to get more out of it and thinking strongly of using bio-balls in stead of dumping straight to the live rock.this will give me a bed for macro algea after the first stage of bio.

OK first, Cali, Steve Tyree's ideas are of the natural evironment type filters. Natural ecosystem types to be more exact. His ideas involve the use of sponges, clams, and other high filter feeders, for cleaning the waters. As well as removing the nitrates. They are mostly designed around the idea of the cryptic world. Or in other words, the world of the ocean, down deep and dark, with very little current. His filter areas (cryptic) involve several chambers installed or built into the aquarium. Where as the water movement is slow, and there is very little to no lighting involved. To learn more, please visit his web site; http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com/


Now to other things;
Well, as for long time in between water changes, the longest I have gone on a SW FOWLR set up, was 8 years. Yes you are reading that correctly, 8 years. The filter system, consisted of bio-balls, 6 inch deep sand bed, mangrove plants, caulerpa, a skimmer, and of course the LR. I had several different types of lionfish in it, as well as a large O-bat that grew from a few inches. Only ever added top off water to the tank. Never had any out break of disease for the entire 8 years. Never had a spike of ammonia or nitrite. And nitrates never went above 10 at any time.

Presently, in my reef tank, my filter consists of a DSB, bio-balls, caulerpa, skimmer, and some mechanical filters. I only change water every 4-8 weeks, depending on the nitrate level. I could do less, if I wanted to feed the fish and the corals less. But, as I like to feed them plenty to eat, I do the water changes to keep up with the nitrate increase. With the 8 year tank above, The fish ate whole pieces of foods, and there was very little waste from the foods. However, with smaller fishes, there is missed food. And, when feeding corals, there is plenty of missed food.

The thing about SW that everyone should realize, is there are 150,000 different ways to set up a tank and filter system. None are wrong, and none are the only correct ways either. There are many combinations of different filters that work OK, good, and great together. For this reason, I never doubt anyones results they might state. And I never talk down about any types of filters, or filter systems either. As they have all worked in the past, and trust me, you will see them working for a long time to come. There are many writers and publishers, that really know their stuff. But, if you read all of them, you will see that they all have different ideas of what they think are the best ways. Many do in fact, talk down about some filter systems. Many of them don't even talk to each other because of these firm disagreements. I have been behind the scenes of many of the aquariums out there. And everyone of them, that I have seen, runs either a very large bio-ball biological wet/dry filter, or a very large up-draft sand biological filter. Or a combination of both. The largest reason they state for using bio-balls over the sand filters, is that they oxygenate the water more.

Now, as for the detritus build up on the bio-balls, this I have never seen in my setups either. I do not discount it, that it could not ever happen, I have just not ever had it happen. It has for many years, worked well for me, and thus I will continue to use it. As well, I have seen terrific results from the DSB as well. So, this too, I will continue to use. Again, my point here, is that what works for one person, may not work for another. And what works terrifically for one person, may only work slightly for another. So, this is why I never talk down on any filter system that has a history of working well, even if my personally history was not so well.



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There is always a bigger fish...

Just reread your post Mark and I feel you know what you are talking about but let me say this.If you can slow down your water changes, why not? Going with out the bio filter that way "may" make it easier on the guy just starting up.

Oh Yeah eB if you go to my TANK SHOTS post you will see the DIY low level float and the black box is the reset for the pump.

Last edited by fishheadfred at 11-Mar-2005 17:56

I first read this in a article in a periodical.Shimmek I think?????
It has been repeated by others with way more experience than me.
This is now IMO.
Bio balls are great for fresh water and fish only marine for thier effectivness and speed of converting ammon to nitrate.This however is not a good plan for a reef or live rock setup.The live rock has the great benefit of being able to actually reduce a small amount of the nitrate and in conjuntion with a sump,refugium with macro algeas and aragonite based sand or rocks will even further nitrate reduction.I have gone for 8 weeks at one point without a need for a water change.Yes I have a small bio load but still....If I had a media such as bio balls this would have never occured.
Now on the subject of dual use "balls and rock" I just don't know.It would depend on the setup I guess!
Any proof (or thoughts) for or against this are welcome as I am trying to learn also!

Tangential diversion for a moment.

Acidrain, this Steve Tyree you cited in your above post. Is he perchance a proponent of the 'ecosystem' method of aquarium maintenance, in which macroalgae refugia play a significant part in nitrate removal? Only this is a theory of aquarium management that appeals to me, should I ever have the funds to branch out into SW, because I've always believed that harnessing natural organisms to perform tasks of this kind is the best way of solving water chemistry management problems.

Now, back to the sump construction.

The thought arises that the plumbing for this exercise is going to need careful selection of materials. And, as a corollary to this, are plastic pipes and connectors of the sort certified for human plumbing use (because they are chemically inert apart from anything else) suitable for adaptation to plumbing a SW refugium? Only it occurs to me that this may solve a number of problems relating to the above sump construction query if such piping is suitable, because it can be cut and shaped to fit.

Of course, if the effects of SW corrosion mitigate against the use of anything other than specially manufactured SW tubing, ignore my aformentioned musings.




Last edited by Calilasseia at 11-Mar-2005 10:34

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

If you have Live rock get rid of the Bio-balls.The BB will just produce nitrate too fast!

Hmmmm.... too fast? You should explain yourself better in this statement, as the way I read it, the bio-balls would be better, if they are making waste into nitrates faster than other things. As that is the whole point of the biological filter, converting ammonia into nitrites, and then into nitrates. And doing it as fast as the biological filter can do it is best.

Now, as for the bio-balls, actually they work just fine, and in fact, they work great. I have used them for over 20 years now, continue to use them, and know of most everyone I know with SW and/or reef systems, that are still using them. The LR, if done properly, reduces the nitrates, as well as the rest of the nitrogen cycle parts. You can, and many people I know, use a combination of both. Also, the bio-balls, highly oxygenates the water, much much more than any other system. The "theory" about bio-balls not being good, yes it is only a theory, is that the bio-balls can get build up of detritus, and thus cause an increase in the ammonia and nitrites, and then nitrates. And yes, depending on what you are using for bio-balls, this can happen. Do I agree or dissagree with this theory, not totally, but you need to know more about it first. You must understand, that the detritus that could build up on some of the bio-balls, is already in the tank, and will eventually break down anyway. And, LR can get the same build up on it, in fact, can get more of a build up. Because in many of the small crevices, the detritus can build up, not only being there, but can cause death of any creatures living on the LR, that are under the build up. And if it was to get moved, by a fish, by your hand, from some current, or just build up enough that gravity pulls it loose, then you will have a quick increase in ammonia and nitrites, and finally nitrates.

As for bio-ball usage, I think if you really look hard around large aquariums, especially those you pay to go see, you will find a bio-ball filter behind the scenes, that are like 6 foot tall, and 6 foot wide. Now, most of these places have the most advanced filters, advanced fish vets, and so on, working on them. So IMO, what ever they are doing, is the better way to do it.

Now don't get me wrong, you do not have to have a bio-ball filter. But they do work. There are other methods of doing the same thing, as well as other filter ideas. Heck, Steve Tyree does not use any type of man made filters on his systems, except maybe a skimmer. But his natural filters are more costly, and require an exact setup to work properly.

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There is always a bigger fish...

k thanx!