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Hey all i'm only new to the forum and relativly new to marine keeping... i have a 48" tank that i have recently set up as a full on reef tank and it looks pretty sweet and all my levels have been good for the last 2 months or so... except the PH levels ... for some reson i just can't seem to get the ph to level out naturally without adding any tank cosmetics. I use natural sea water as i am close to the ocean and leave it for a week to become sterlie but the day after i put it in the tank it drops from 8.2 back to 7.6 or so ... So please let me know what is that i need to do or that i might not be doing right... could the PH level also be the reason that some of my LPH corals do not come out fully??? some do some don't so i'm a little confused... any help would be much appreciated

thanks Luke

I need the full rundown on what you are testing and your whole setup.

How much LR?

Filtration(sump, HOB, wet/dry, etc.)?

Protein skimmer?

How much flow?

What are the full dimensions on the tank?

How much and what kind of lights do you have?

What are you testing:

pH?

Alk?

Ca?

Ammonia?

Nitrite?

Nitrate?

Phosphate?

Salinity?

Temp?

I guess we need to know where you are collecting your SW from, if it's a clean source or not, and what you have tested it for.

What are you using for top off?

What corals do you have?

What corals aren't doing well?

What and how many fish do you have?

Inverts?

What are you dosing the tank with?

How often do you do water changes, and what percentage?

What is your maint. procedures?

Without an answer for all of these, we can't really give you a good answer.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

yes, please give answers for the above questions.

Although, I feel you problem is probably your substrate. What are you using for a substrate? It should be of a calcium base to help buffer and keep the ph elevated. Some form of crushed coral is the best.

As well, wondering what you are adding, and what corals you have? Because, many corals will be taking the calcium out of the water to build their skeletons. For this reason, you will probably need to add calcium to your water on a continuous basis, even if you have a calcium based sand bed.

There are many things you need to research and learn about keeping a reef tank. It is much different than keeping a fish only SW tank. And there are many different ways you will find to meet your needs. So you will have to decide which ways are best for you.

But for starters, we do need to know more about your tank.

And always remember the three main rules to keeping a SW tank, and especially a reef tank, are patience, patience, and more patience.



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There is always a bigger fish...

Hey Guys, thanks for you replies it is always appreciated...
1. There are about 40kg of live rock in the tank, most is the rocks that the corals are attached to... but i'm not sure of the exact weight but it takes up aobut half of the tank from front bottom to rear top...
2. Filtration consists of PS with 2000lph flow, FBF with 1000lpg flow and a canister filter with 1500 Lph... in the CF i have bio blocks in top tray, ceremic noodles in next, act carbon, synthetic carbon and phosphate sponge in the next and then on the bottom just a 1.5" sponge... and there is also a UV ster on the tanks @ 500lph
3. Water flow consists of all pumps feeding into the tank and i had 2x2000lph power heads but it was too much for the LPH corals... so i cut it back to one which i only put on sometimes when feeding brine so that the tubes enomones get a fair go...
4. the tank is 4'x 1'x1.5'... not all that big but it's somewhere to start...
5. At the moment lighting consists only of 2 10k fluros... but am in the process of uping them to 2x250w 20k halides... is this over kill??? Sorry i've got like not much experience in this field...
6. At the moment i'm only testing... Nitrite, nitrate, Ammonia, Ph, Phosphate and salinity with a hydro @ between 1.020 and 1.023 ... which except for the ph seems to fine... Have been doing some reading into the Alk and Ca but have not as yet got a test kit for these parameters...
7. I have been collecting water in previous from a pontoon simply for convenience but the marina is right next door so i think i mignt have to find another source because of fuel leaking...
8. to top off after evaporation i am using rain water?? should i be doing this because the tap water here is like really chlorinated and even after treating with a remover i'm not sure that it is all gone...
9. Corals... lol... i don't know the exact names of all so i'll tell you what names i can identify off the proflie section of this site... Ok i got some Xenia,Zoanthids, fair bit of LPH star polyps in fluro green, brown and purple, tan and white and light brown and white,blue and green bolder coral, and a LPH that looks a little like a clam when withdrawn and then like brown frogspawn when open but i can't remember the name, i also have some large peices of fluro green LPH but they are like only a bubble polyp most the time and sometimes extend their tentacles out when i'm feeding and don't like the fish either , Bit of LP Plates and SP Plates which don't seem to like the fish i put in even though the collector said they won't pick on them and he's been doing it for 20 years of somthing so...i also got some soft tree coral that continually blow themself up and down but they only come out full once in a blue moon and arn't really doing that well... a few shrunk to nothing ...

10. the main Corals that arn't doing well are the plates, they were doing fine and looking really good as there are like pastel shade of Blue, green and purple.. until the Scribble angles got put in and keep picking at the polyps...

11. Fish... well i have 3 scribble angels which i have had 2 in the tank for 2 weeks and 1 in for 1 week and they still arn't eating silly things but they always go around picking on the corals and if not the corals directly the rock around them and the corals all retract so i dunno i don't want to pull the tank apart to get them out unless i absolutly have to so...arrrhhh,i put two in originaly but the bigger really gave the littler a hammering even though they came out of the same take from the supplier but didn't want to pull theatnk down to get them out so thought that maybe even a bigger one would sort them out and so i put a bigger one in and it did to a certain exttent but i still never see the little fella out and about... always hiding under coral and in the rock... i also have 2 beaked butterflys and they seem to be fine, they do pick at things but i'm not sure i'f they're doing any damage , they are finaly eating the brine but arn't bossy feeders so they sometimes miss the feast... i also have two osolaris Clowns and they are eating and fine... also have a purple head wrasse and he's fine... sleeps under the substrate... i then have 2 things that i caught in a rock pool which don't disturb anything ana are really funny fish that bite what ever you put in the tank even fingers and arms but i don't have a clue what they are... they are like a mudskipper cross goby but they don't skip and they don't have bulgy eyes... they are a light black with bright blue spots up their side and have two antennae on top of they're head that look like feathers??? does anyone know?? i then have these two tiny little things that i dunno what they are either... they eat, add character and don't worry anything so they can stay... i think thats it...
12. Inverts... i have 4 tube enemones that seem to be doing fine but i think they'de do better under a bit more light??? they love brine and can easily dispose of half a block at a time... but as i learn't quickly... they sting others and therefore there were some rearangments made.
there is also a coral lobster thing (i think there is only one) that came in with the live rock that has a real hard whack it you try to pick them up... and it's not their claws (i don't think they have any)... they have these things that fold under their head and are like spring loaded and give a pretty decent whack, he looks pretty and cleans up the tank and doesn't seem to bother anything so he's alright but i'm sometimes afraid he's crack the Glass on the tank whck he seem fairly opposed to so...
13. I am curently dosing the tank with Red Sea- Coral Grow each day, Calcium 3+ with has the strontium and all that and coral trace suplement each week... but apart from that i don't put anything else in as i don't want the tank to become relient of cosmetics so to speak...
14. At the moment i am doing about 15 - 20 % water changes a week... Have been a bit slack this week tho so i'll have to do one today... and maint. procedures is basically cleaning the CF once a month and the Protien skimmer when neccessary and giving the gravel in the front a bit of a clean when doing water change so not that much... should i be doing more...
15. The substrate in the tank is Calcium Carbonate... i would have prefered Crushed coral as it is a bit more naturally asthetic but everything i read and all i spoke to recomended CC gravel except one thing i read which which said the having it would make it MORE difficult to maintain proper PH and Kalc levels so?? i dunno...

Anyway i hope i have given you all the info that you'se need to give me a proper answer and i would appreciate it very much... thanks all

Luke

Sounds like you have done quite a bit of research. Good work.

With what you have, you really need to do alk and calcium testing. There is a fine line in the levels of calcium you need to keep for the corals. And if too much, this could cause your alk to drop, and then your ph to fluctuate. If adding calcium you should always check these levels on a regular basis.

As for the substrate, well to set things straight, coral is calcium carbonate. And what you have will be fine.

Your lighting seems very low for most any corals, and especially for all yours. When you do your upgrade, be sure to do it slowly. As the instant bright lighting can cause bleaching to occur on the corals. Place a dark screen between the lighting and the corals for a couple weeks, and just slowly remove it after that, taking a couple weeks till it is completely removed. The lighting you are planning is probably overkill, but will probably work after established. Just remember, the corals will have more light and thus grow faster. So you will have to watch your calcium levels closer to keep them maintained.

Get the test kits for calcium and alk and let us know how it goes after that.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Tangential diversion from your pH fluctuation for a moment ...

there is also a coral lobster thing (i think there is only one) that came in with the live rock that has a real hard whack it you try to pick them up... and it's not their claws (i don't think they have any)... they have these things that fold under their head and are like spring loaded and give a pretty decent whack, he looks pretty and cleans up the tank and doesn't seem to bother anything so he's alright but i'm sometimes afraid he's crack the Glass on the tank whck he seem fairly opposed to so...

This sounds VERY much like a Mantis Shrimp. Mantis Shrimps are wonderful creatures, but need to be approached with care. This is because a Mantis Shrimp is, in effect, an underwater cross between an M1 Abrams main battle tank and an Apache attack helicopter. If that analogy strikes you as being exaggerated, then the following should disavow you of that notion ...

Mantis Shrimps have unique eyesight. They have eyes that are divided into different regions for sensing different aspects of the electromagnetic spectrum, including different wavelengths, and, wait for it, different polarisations of light too. Furthermore, there's a strip of high resolution light sensors across each eyeball, which when mated to the Mantis Shrimp's steroscopic vision, produces a 'crosshair sight' effect. Basically, X marks the spot, as it were, and it's deadly accurate. What makes this even more akin to some piece of military technology is the presence of the 'weapon system' underneath the head - there are two different variations on this. Some species have a sharp spike (these species are colloquially known as the 'stabbers') and some have a hinged extensible apparatus with a big club on the end (these species are the 'smashers'). You have a 'smasher' by the sound of it, and the weapon in question is linked to the eyesight mechanism, so that when it is deployed, it strikes right where the 'crosshairs' formed by the eyes tell it to. So there's your Apache'style precision strike capability. However, the sheer power this instrument can pack is awesome for its size - some adult Mantis Shrimps pack a punch equivalent to the impact of a .22 rifle bullet (this has been measured in the laboratory), which it uses to shatter crab carapaces before devouring the crab. Hence the comparison with an M1 Abrams - it possesses serious firepower. The Mantis Shrimp is also well armoured, but combines that armour with astonishing manouevreability, making it in effect a special ops weapons system roaming the reef.

Now comes the fun part. If it's minded to, it could shatter your glass. With devastating results, because when it lets fly with the force of a .2 rifle bullet, the resulting explosion of your glass is going to be an event that you will NEVER forget once you see it - you'll think a bomb has gone off in the living room if it happens! However, the GOOD news is that if you manage your Mantis Shrimp with some due care and attention, you can focus it's attention elsewhere, and thus keep it from deploying its armour piercing missile system on your front pane.

These creatures are pretty intelligent by invertebrate standards, and soon learn that, for example, you feed it. Just make sure you keep your hand clear of the primary weapon when you're cleaning the tank, because an adult will deliver sufficient punch to shatter your wrist bones!

Isn't Nature marvellous? Mantis Shrimps combined the best aspects of precision guidance systems and armour piercing firepower something like 50 million years before man got in on the act.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Just following the mantis tangent...

The .22 caliber bullet mantis strike is often quoted. However, it's important to note that this was a large adult mantis of a large species. The smaller stomatopods, while powerful, are not nearly as strong. Some of them will not even break the skin upon striking a finger. Of course, that only goes for the smashers. These smaller species are also not nearly as capable of destroying aquarium glass. Only one of the larger smashers could crack the thicker glass on a four foot tank, and then again only if it had the inclination.

Another point is that almost always it is the smaller species which show up in live rock. Mantis hitchhikers therefore aren't as big a problem as they are made out to be. Many of them totally ignore fish, and only take out their hunger on small shelled animals, like crabs, hermits, shrimp, and snails. Though these are important, a lost snail won't make a reefkeeper cry as much as a lost fish will.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Well I did say some adult Mantis Shrimps can deliver a blow of that power ... not all ... And, the power that a big adult of the right species can muster was eloquently demonstrated on a BBC TV programme around 7 years back ... in fact I think the one and only David Attenborough narrated the programme ...

Even so, a Mantis Shrimp can make short work of a crab if it so wishes. So if there are any small crabs in that aquarium that came in with the live rock, I suspect their days are numbered once the Mantis Shrimp goes a-hunting

Of course, the 'stabbers' are the ones to watch out for from the standpoint of an aquarist's safety. Those can inflict some harrowing looking wounds even when small.

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

"...on a BBC TV programme around 7 years back ..."

It might have been the one called "Fastest Claw in the West". I'm looking for a copy (it's bundled with another BBC nature show), but am having trouble finding a U.S. seller. Mantis shrimp are very fascinating animals.

And yep, those spearers can do a lot of damage to your hand!

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

That's the one!

More information on that programme

I'm sure if you E-Mail the BBC sirbooks, they'll be able to supply it on DVD - they can supply just about everything Attenborough has done because the vast marjority of his work was compiled with BBC help ... not difficult to draft them in on a project when you've been a former Controller of BBC2 as Attenborough was!

I think you can get it as a double bill with Aliens From Inner Space, the piece Attenborough narrated about Cuttlefishes ... which is another tour de force of underwater special effects photography, the special effects provided free of charge by the Cuttlefishes


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Double Post.

Having taken a look at your fish stock, I have some bad news for you.

Your setup is a 44 gallon (US) aquarium - minus of course the water volume excluded by the live rock. In a setup that size, the Scribbled Angelfish, Chaetodontoplus duboulayi, is WAY too big a fish even if you only had the one Scribbled Angel in there and nothing else ... Scribbled Angels reach 22 cm in length, and are candidates for aquaria of 100 gallons and up, and given that they're pretty active fishes, they're also likely to be big waste producers, which alone will almost certainly account for much of your pH fluctuation problems even without taking the corals into account.

Plus, Scribbled Angels, like all large Angels, are territorial, so I'm not in the least surprised that you've seen them scrapping with each other - in fact, I'm surprised they're still alive, given that you have three of them in such a small setup! If I was buying this fish species, I wouldn't put it in anything less than a 150 gallon tank with a similar sized sump.

Your Scribbled Angels also need a proportion of algae in their diet, and would also probably benefit from sponge-based marine fish foods. If you haven't much algae growing in the tank, the chances are they're supplementing that lack in the diet by nipping at your corals for the zooxanthellae. Which brings me to another MAJOR issue - Angels are NOT reef safe fishes. They are CERTAINLY not safe in a reef aquarium containing live sponges, because this is what many Angelfishes eat in the wild! For that matter, they will also be tempted to try out other sessile invertebrates too ... which means all those nice corals you have growing in there. And, given that Scribbled Angels are probably an expensive species (here in the UK I'd expect to pay something like £80 per fish for a juvenile), this is becoming a VERY costly mistake - a fish that is too large for your setup, likely to be incompatible with your sessile invertebrates, and more to the point, territorial with conspecifics, which means that putting more than one of these fishes together needs a VERY large setup.

Next, your "Beaked Butterflies". Would these be either of Forcipiger flavissimus or Forcipiger longirostris by any chance? Only these fishes are coral polyp eaters in the wild! For that matter, most Butterfly Fish species eat coral polyps in the wild, some (for example the gorgeous but impossible Chaetodon trifasciatus) are obligate corallivores that eat nothing but coral polyps. Putting Butterfly Fishes into a reef aquarium is inviting disaster if they take a liking to your corals, and putting that kind of temptation before a fish which eats these very organisms in the wild is, well, doing your reef intentions no favours at all ...

Your Ocellaris Clownfishes are likely to be OK. Watch them though, particularly if you have small ornamental shrimps in there, as they might decide to help themselves to a little shrimp snack

Your 'Purple Head Wrasse' - this is another fish I'm SERIOUSLY worried about. Why? Because the fish I know as a 'Purple Head Wrasse' is Thalassoma genivittatum, which reaches 20 cm in length when adult and is again FAR too large and active a fish for your setup. It's also going to be fond of some of your mobile invertebrates as food when it grows older! The bioload this fish will produce is substantial, and again will add to your pH fluctuation woes. Basically, when fish excrement is decomposed by bacteria, a goodly number of the by products are acidic, and if you have a lot of large fishes (...) producing waste in a small space, those bacteria are going to produce a substantial amount of acidic by products which will depress your pH significantly. I would check the EXACT identity of your 'Purple Head Wrasse' FAST and make sure that it isn't a big Thalassoma species, because if it is, you're heading for trouble keeping one of those in anything less than 150 gallons ...

As for your 'mystery fishes', they sound like a Blenny species of some sort. Members of the Family Blenniidae have the 'antennae' you describe, which are technically known as "Cirri". Black with blue spots sounds a bit like Cirripectes stigmaticus, a 10 cm fish. However, some of these fishes also have red upon them, so again, it's time to have your fish photographed and checked out by someone with specialist knowledge in the field, to make sure you don't have any more surprises in there - most Blennies are nice and small, but there does exist the odd large species ... and thus far, you've shown quite a penchant for picking big fishes that belong in a MUCH bigger setup than yours ...

My recommendations? Cut back on your fish stocking DRASTICALLY, then once the aquarium has stabilised with a MUCH smaller fish bioloading, choose additional inmates with FAR more care ... do NOT add anything that is going to grow over 10 cm long, research THOROUGHLY any compatibility issues such as conspecific territoriality BEFORE spending a dime, and if you DO decide to add more fishes later once the aquarium has stabilised, consider such fishes as Gobiosoma or Eviota Goby species, Nemateleotris Firefishes, Gobiodon citrinus, perhaps one of the smaller Stonogobiops species (though I'd be wary of Stonogobiops yasha because it's fairly delicate and also HIDEOUSLY expensive because it's sky high desirable) and if you want a Wrasse, try the beautiful but small Cirrhilabrus rubriventralis, one of the Fairy Wrasses, which stays small at 7.5 cm. Do NOT at this stage even THINK of touching Anthias, because they need to be in a group and you need 150 gallons upwards for that kind of stocking ...

Likewise, you could run with one of the Dottyback species, but again, stick to one that is under 10 cm as an adult, and moreover, check for compatibility with your existing fishes and the likelihood of aggression - Pseudochromis porphyreus is a lovely fish, and at 5.5 cm, small enough for your setup, but boy, it can be feisty when it wants to be ... and whatever you do, DO NOT MIX Dottybacks with Grammas unless you want major warfare to break out ...

Other small fishes you could look out for include some of the Cardinal Fishes, which are nice and hardy as well as being small.

However, once you've reduced the stocking - and I'm sorry to say this, but it's goodbye Scribbled Angels, the Butterflies (which again are large at 27 cm when adult if they're Forcipiger species) and the Purple Head Wrasse if that Wrasse is a Thalassoma species - don't think you can compensate by bunging in 16 smaller fishes! A marine aquarium doesn't work like that - marine fishes need a LOT more water volume per fish than freshwater fishes in an aquarium, especially if you're also trying to build a reef with corals in it. With the Ocellaris Clowns and the two Blennies, I'd say you have room for two more fishes maximum if you want your system to be stable and easier to maintain.

Let's see ... three Scribbled Angels, two Forcipiger butterflies, a Purple Head Wrasse ... here in the UK that lot would cost me £420, which at current exchange rates would be equivalent to $793 US. Yikes, you must be made of money if you can afford to spend that much on fishes in one go!

Cut back on those big fishes and a LOT of other issues will fall into place. Your pH will probably be a LOT more stable, and as a corollary, you may find it easier to maintain calcium levels for your corals too.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002