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Always start planning as early as possible. We are moving into a house with a full finished basement(concrete floor) so will have plenty of room to upgrade a few tanks. However it's not gonna happen until probably late spring so this is the completely preliminary stages where I barely have an idea what end result I'd like to have and how to get there. Plus I can figure out how much money I have to start saving now and not go broke later.

I know I want to go considerably larger than my 20g nano but I'd rather stick with a 4' tank. I'm leaning towards a 75g and know where I can get some predilled ones for not too bad of price. I have an extra 29 around I can use for a sump. Dimensions wouldn't make the best sump in the world but it could be an effective refugium and contain basic equipment. I'd kinda like to continue using the 20long as either hospital and quarantine or eventually try to breed a goby species in there so I don't want to press it into use as a sump or fuge. New tank will definitely be filled with plenty of liverock. That's the basic setup I have decided on so far and the rest is mostly just random ideas I haven't thought out too much.

Light requirements I don't know exactly. I'd like some corals but I'm thinking of sticking with polyps and mushrooms. I'm interested in trying some plants along with that. I rather like the planted marine tanks but don't want to take it too far. I don't really want to use a macro like caulerpa in the main tank. I was thinking of just doing a fairly small area of shoal grass possibly along 1 side. It gets ~12" high and doesn't require an extremely deep sand bed like some other grasses. Then maybe a couple mangrove shoots along the back. I'm debating whether I can get away with just pc lights but doubting it. Probably better to add at least 1 mh pendant? So many light setups and brands to choose from

For stock from the 20g I'm definitely moving 2 of the shrimp(peppermint and cleaner) and the blue spot watchman(Cryptocentrus Leptocephalus). He is a bit large for the 20g but so far being the only fish in there and water changes weekly he's doing fine. Would rather move him though. Then I want to add something that won't quite hide as much as the goby but along the same type of fish. Maybe a dartfish/firefish, rainford's, or hector goby. Ooooo Nemateleotris helfrichi... I'm too broke for that... someday. Still on the lookout for any place that can get me an Ecsenius stigmatura-aka tail spot blenny. I really wanted one but after months of searching and people saying they could order one and then appologizing later I finally gave up and got the watchman. Chris also wants a lawnmower blenny for some reason. I haven't researched that in too much detail because at the time it was definitely too big and requiring too much algae to stay alive longterm in the size of tank I was setting up.

Filtration I have no idea if I want to rely on a refugium or go with more mechanical filtration. I will probably run a protein skimmer but other than that possibly just an eheim ecco that could be cleaned out frequently. I don't really want to use powerfilters because of the amount of splash, increased evaporation, and salt creep they cause. I do currently have a large aquaclear powerhead with quickfilter attachment that provides some good basic mechanical filtration but it's a bit large with too much water movement for the way the 20g is setup. I may move it to the new bigger tank and buy a smaller PH and with the goby out of the tank stop using mechanical filtration again. The tank ran fine without it until I added the goby. He is pushing the tank limits a bit.

I should stop before I just keep rambling on with my numerous half thought out ideas. Any suggestions so far?

Sham,

I am usually not venturing to the dark side as I pretty much have no knowledge in that field.

But you are asking for ideas, and I have one

Think big!!!

I know a 75G is not a small tank, but given that you will have your house and a basement where the tank will be (for quite some time to come, I assume), I would give it about a maximum of one year until you will find the tank "somewhat small".

I also know that cost is an important factor, and the larger you go the more it costs. But on the other hand, the cost per gallon will go down (works for me, at least ).

So, I propose at least a 120, 4x2x2 feet. What do you think?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Liveaquaria has had tailspot blennies in stock the last two times I looked, including today. I was happy with the one live order I've placed with them, my only problem was the minimum order. I have an Ecsenius fish (E. midas) and I like it. He's popular with the family as well.

As far as the corals (the mushrooms and zoanthids) are concerned, the PC lights would be okay. I don't really know much about those plants though, I think I remember that mangroves do need more light.

With a tank that size, you might get tired of doing water changes so often. I know that's how I am with my sixty-five gallon. I'm just happy I have plenty of live rock!

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Sham, if you are thinking of sea grasses, this article from reefkeeping,com should prove invaluable.

The term 'sea grass' covers a multitude of sins. Originally, my understanding of the term centred upon plants belonging to the Family Zosteraceae, some of which are native to temperate marine waters such my own UK ones. However, it transpires that the Zosteraceae is not the only higher plant Family to have submerged marine members, and that article will introduce you to a number of species that will be more suitable for a refugium attached to a reef aquarium than members of the Genus Zostera, many of which are temperate plants and thus unlikely to integrate well into a tropical refugium.

Of course, you could still have some macroalgae, but of course you're probably thinking of avoiding Caulepa, because of the problems it poses when it switches from asexual to sexual reproduction. If you pick up any of the books written by Mike Paletta at your local library, you'll find quite a few nice marine macroalgae other than Caulerpa that you can choose from.

Since you're doing the very thing I keep telling people to do, namely plan ahead at an early stage in the game (hat tip to you there!), a few things to bear in mind at this early stage include:

[1] Are you contemplating keeping a Dwarf Angel? If so, you will need to cultivate filamentous algae in the main aquarium for it to graze upon, as well as harvesting the odd piece of refugium greenery as a snack.

[2] Are you contemplating keeping any of the Dragonets? Time to plan ahead with respect to amphipod cultivation if so.

[3] Are you thinking of restricting yourself to fishes that are not likely to display too much territorial aggression in the aquarium, or are you possibly contemplating something such as a Dottyback? If so, the rest of the inhabitants need to be chosen with great care, so that the Dottyback does not turn into a nightmare acquisition and beat up the other fishes ...

[4] While the conventional wisdom vis-a-vis corals is to provide intense lighting, remember that some of your creatures might like shade too. Some fishes will appreciate greatly the forethought of an aquarist who provides rocky overhangs for them (Grammas, Dottybacks and quite a few other popular fishes such as Liopropoma species will love you for this). Set about designing the rockwork with this in mind now, and planning also how to make the resulting edifice stable even if some of your fishes decide to engage in excavation, will pay dividends once you're closer to the aquarium going 'live'.

[5] If you're thinking of acquiring any fishes that are likely to be excavators, again, plan your coral siting with care. Valenciennea Gobies are, for their size, industrial-scale bulldozers capable of shifting a truly enormous amount of substrate once they start tunnelling, and they have a nasty habit of being indiscriminate with respect to where they dump the excavated refuse - sometimes right on top of a prized coral colony. Finding places where the corals are out of reach of such disasters will also require some planning. I would also caution you about Electric Blue Damsels in this regard - I've seen one of those shift substrate at a truly frightening rate of knots.

[6] If you're thinking of certain classes of ornamental invertebrate, this will impact upon your fish choices. If you want ornamental shrimp, then I'm afraid most Dottybacks are out - the majority of those will thank you very kindly for an expensive lunch and treat you to a display of harrowing savagery as they literally batter the poor shrimp to death against your live rock and then snack upon the pieces. Grammas, however, are likely to be much less inclined to do so, being primarily amphipod and isopod feeders in the wild, and of course if you decide to run with a Gramma, Dottybacks are ruled out again because the Dottyback will kill the Gramma.

[7] Continuing with the invertebrates, make sure you choose your shrimps carefully - some species have very specialised diets! One species listed as a 'Bumblebee Shrimp' (though hopefully not the one that is commonly traded) feeds exclusively on the tube feet of sea urchins, and another shrimp I've encountered eats the tube feet of Starfiehes and nothing else. Unless you're planning on cultivating plankton rund the clock, I would avoid Crinoids too.

A few things to add to your planning list.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I've debated doing a 120g but I touched on the logistics of doing a tank that size when I set up my 90g and found it rather painful. The top of the 90g rim when it's on the stand is equal to the top of my head and so after bucketing enough water into it for water changes I pulled all the muscles across my shoulders. Add in getting enough RO water and mixing salt and water changes could be quite a chore. I've decided that for now 90g tanks are probably my limit for both freshwater and salt. Since I also tend to like small fish I would probably be happier setting up two slightly smaller tanks so I can run various types of small fish setups instead of 1 large tank where everything has to get along. One reason I'm keeping the 20g long around to play with. A little goby breeding tank could be more fun than a huge reef. Especially if I could make back some money.

The seagrass article is quite useful. I think it could be added with minimal effort. Since I'm not doing a seagrass dominated tank as they put it and I'm using the smallest and what looks to be one of the hardiest species some of those problems wouldn't apply as strongly. I do probably have to consider how much I pack my refugium with macro. A small patch of shoal grass in a 75g probably wouldn't use up enough nutrients to require fertilizers but a fuge full of chaeto probably does. I don't think substrate will be a problem if I'm already using minimal mechanical filtration. Bits of detritus would get worked into the sand by the snails and it sounds like the shoal grass would get along fine like that without requiring special substrate mixed in. Only problem is even after the article I'm still not sure on light. It suggests using more than pc lights if the sandbed is farther than 10-14" from the top. A 75g is 20" high and if I do a 4" sandbed for the grass it's still 16" away. Being 18" wide though I can probably stick 3 bulbs wide on the tank making it 6x65w which I would think would work fine not only for seagrass but the polyps and shrooms. In the end it still might just be easier and possibly even more cost effective to use at least some mh instead of packing on the pc bulbs.

I'm not stocking any damsels or likely anything related to them. Although I have to drag my boyfriend away from the chromis tank at the store. No chromis, no damsels, no clowns... I told him he can look at all the dartfish, gobies, and blennies he wants and I'm mostly sticking with those. That still leaves more than enough species to completely overstock a 4' tank if I got every fish I wanted and should also eliminate most invertebrate incompatibilities so I won't have to worry much about that. I'd like a mandarin but I think it would add 1 too many variables into the tank and make it too much work. If I did add a mandarin I'd want to setup probably something near the size of a 40 breeder for a refugium instead of just using the 29g I have on hand.

I stack my rocks with quite alot of caves, open space in the middle, and overhangs. A 5" goby disappears in my 20g tank. He's excavated all the sand out of the center of the rock structure so he can swim the full length of the tank while completely hidden in the center or behind the stack of rocks. The aquascaping becomes difficult though when I start considering how to incorporate the grass. Just placing it anywhere across the front is going to block the view of a good portion of the tank but behind the rocks is rather pointless. I was either thinking leaving a gap between the rocks in the middle and back of the tank to do a center patch of shoal grass or planting rather small amounts along either end.

Due to insomnia I thought I'd spent my time of not sleeping by making progress on my tank plans.

1st any benefit or problems from using 5" of dsb versus 4". Does layering a dsb with different types of sand or substrate work or does it just all mix? I was thinking to involve different types of nutrients and for looks to do it mostly in argonite, then a layer of seachem's grey calcite based substrate they claim is good for everything from marine to freshwater planted tanks, last top it off with an inch of indo-pacific black just cause I like the mix of black and white instead of plain white. I actually prefer plain black but it's too hard to clean.

Next sump help is needed. I've looked at tons of diagrams of different sumps and read articles and I still don't get sump logistics very well. If I get a predrilled 75g then water runs out the built in overflow, down the pipe, into the 29g sump, and is pumped from the far side by a powerhead up another tube back into the tank.. right..? But what controls the amount of water in the sump versus in the tank and keeps the sump from either running dry or overflowing. Also probably having an effect on the previous question what bulkheads/dividers are needed and where to put them in order to use the 29g as mainly a refugium with possibly mineral mud type substrate and macro algae? When those questions are answered I can move on to what other water movement and potential mechanical filtration I need.

To touch on fish stocking incase it has a bearing on tank setup I have a basic list that is starting to be put in order of what fish I want the most. Let's assume at least 75lbs of rock and probably closer to 100lbs for the purposee of any potential impact on stocking suggestions. Definitely being moved into the tank is: blue spot watchman(Cryptocentrus Leptocephalus)-6" That's set in stone.
Next I definitely want to have the tailspot(Ecsenius stigmatura)-2-3"

After that I'm not sure what else fits. Other potentials on the wanted list are either a starry blenny(slarias ramosus)-5-6" or lawnmower blenny(salarias fasciatus)-5" and either a red firefish((Nemateleotris magnifica)-3" or Ambligobius rainfordi 3". The latter 2 being slightly more open swimmers instead of as likely to perch and hide in the rock all day. I'm not sure on fitting 4 fish though. I also don't want the lawnmower with the rainford's because they are both algae eaters. On http://www.wetwebmedia.com/gobyfaqs.htm there is a paragraph about rainford's needing a constant supply of live hair algae in the tank to feed off of. I've also heard others trying to keep them in nanos mention that as a potential problem and the lawnmower would make trying to provide that constant food source a bit more difficult.

There was something else but I don't remember... Maybe it's just all the filtration confusion I'm trying to sort out that makes me feel like I'm missing something. Or cause it's about 4hours past time to go to sleep so I think I'll try doing that again and see if what I just typed makes any real sense tomorrow.

what controls the amount of water in the sump versus in the tank and keeps the sump from either running dry or overflowing.

The overflow is rated at some value. That's how much water that can fall due to gravity into the sump without water building up and flowing up over the tank rim. With no pump, no water falls into the sump. With a 300 gph pump, 300 gph flows into the sump. This linear relationship remains until the max capacity of the overflow is reached. Therefore you want a pump rated slightly below the rating of the overflow. The water level changes in the sump while it remains constant in the display, so the sump should be watched for top off.

Also, when deciding how much water goes into the system, you can have the main display full and just enough in the sump to have the system going. Then turn the pump off and wait until the water stops running into the sump. Then fill the sump with water and turn the pump back on. When the system is going make a mark at the water level in the sump, that's how high the water can be without overflowing in case of a power outage or when you turn off the pump for maintenance.

what bulkheads/dividers are needed and where to put them in order to use the 29g as mainly a refugium

If you are buying an allglass predrilled with an overflow box already in there, they sell a kit that basically has everything but the pump. I'd recommend getting it if you aren't handy when it comes to plumbing. I think it's just called an overflow kit or something like that.

As for dividers, I like having everything in a seperate section, it cuts down on the bubbles and stuff like that. I have the water draining down into the sump sectioned off with a couple baffles before the refugium, and that has just a divider before the return pump.

To touch on fish stocking incase it has a bearing on tank setup

I'd personally have only 1 or 2 blennies/ gobys. They need their territory on the bottom levels. A firefish would be nice. If you aren't thinking of corals you could go with a pygmy angel. A lot of wrasses get on well in a reef tank and aren't too boisterous. 75 is even the magic number for a yellow tang or a kole tang. Just throwing out ideas. 75 is a nice size, you have more options and more room. Depending on what fish, 4 could easily work out for you in a 75. Throw out a wish list and I'm sure we can help modify it for you.

I agree that the rainfords should have at least a small patch of some hair algae, but more importantly IMO is the need for some live foods and fine sand in the tank. Mine was always sifting through the sand for food. Also they have a tough time competing for that food, and wrasses and other "pickers" of live foods seem to make it tough for them.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I've been told the tailspot is one of the most peaceful blennies and not too interested in defending territory. I don't think that would be any issue so long as it isn't harassed by larger blennies but I would think in a 75g full of rock it would be able to avoid the others completely. It's mixing the blue spot with one of the slarias species that presents possible problems with agression or territory. If I forget the slarias species would the blue spot, tailspot, rainford's, and firefish work? That shouldn't be very stocked with three fish around 2-3" nor a very competitive tank for territory or food. The only other fish I've really considered so far is the scissortail(Ptereleotris evides) but I know I can't get it locally. I have yet to find the tailspot locally either so I may just end up ordering from somewhere like liveaquaria which has a much better selection than all 5 stores in my area.

"1st any benefit or problems from using 5" of dsb versus 4". Does layering a dsb with different types of sand or substrate work or does it just all mix?"

There isn't a big difference unless you have a burrowing animal. In that case, the deeper the better.

Different grain sizes will tend to seperate, unless you have animals that keep the entire sand bed well mixed. It would take a lot of critters to keep four or five inches of sand stirred, so I would think that the sand would layer after a while anyways. I don't think it would look very nice that way, myself.

"If I forget the slarias species would the blue spot, tailspot, rainford's, and firefish work?"

That ought to be fine. Like Matty said, the rainford goby will be the toughest fish to care for. Keep it well fed, and you'll be in good shape. I don't see any other problems with the fish stock, though personally I'd add a "jerk" fish. For me, that's my hawkfish and dwarf angel, and I love Pseudochromis. They have so much personality.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

I love Pseudochromis. They have so much personality.

Same here. And they're beautifully coloured with only a few exceptions. But, as I cited above, Dottybacks can be problematic in the wrong setup. Even the relatively mild mannered ones can be a pain if inapropriately housed, and the feisty ones can be a nightmare if they're not integrated carefully into a setup that's planned for their eventual introduction from the outset.

One species you would NOT love if you made the mistake of putting it in your aquarium is Pseudochromis steenei. Which is completely intolerant of ALL other fishes and would set about exterminating your other occupants more or less from the word 'go'. It boasts a seriously vicious looking set of canines and accompanies that with a willingness to use them. In this respect it's like the triggerfish Balistapus undulatus - a fish that just will NOT live in an aquarium alongside other fishes. You can, however, if you acquire a male and female pair, have a pair of steenei in the same aquarium, but any other fish that you put in the same aquarium as the steenei pair from that point on is doomed to be sushi in about 10 seconds. The steenei is effectively the Flowerhorn of the marine world temperament wise, and even looks like a hardcore thug when you see its facial expression close up.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/ItemDisplay.cfm?ddid=11790&siteid=20

Come on. You know you want it. "Buy me! Buy me Cali!"

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

I've just come from a thread where I've discovered that someone is about to get a BIG shock when they realise that putting Melanochromis chipokae in a 29 is a recipe for disaster as the aquarium becomes a nuclear battleground. This fish is the marine version of the chipokae, and then some.

How about this from reefkeeping.com on this fish:

P. steenei sports an impressive set of large teeth that extend out of the fishes mouth even when the mouth is closed! What makes this worse is the fish is aware of the damage it can do with the canine-like teeth and prefers to show you! In the original description of this fish by Dr. Anthony Gill and Dr. John Randall (1992), the authors are quoted as saying, "P. steenei and its close relatives appear to be highly territorial and aggressive. The second author's camera housing was bitten while photographing the holotype and paratype of P. steenei." In Scott Michael's recent release, "A Deadly Dottyback," he describes his best method for photographing P. steenei was focusing on his fingers and placing his glove covered hand in P. steenei's litter patch. The fish would dart out of it's home, attacking his fingers, and even shake the finger once in it's grasp. Once the fish released the finger it would often remain nearby and "sneer" at it's victim. Some attitude!

Says it all really ...


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Shh... You'll give my boyfriend ideas. Currently he's begging for a lion fish. What is it about guys and wanting big and/or agressive looking fish?

It's a sterotype, that's what it is. I don't have a single fish in any of my three tanks that exceeds three and a quarter inches long. Granted, my largest tank is a sixty-five gallon, but I have no desire to keep any large or aggressive fish. Except for something to eat my siblings. But that's not my fault.

If your boyfriend wants a lion that badly, tell him he has to get a seperate tank for it, no exceptions. You can make up some reasons to back that up, or give him legitimate ones. If he really wants the fish, you'll end up with another aquarium. Win/win.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

I'm male and the fishes I have a soft spot for tend to be cute and cuddly. Panda Corys for example.

However, Dottybacks are on my marine 'wish list'. The species I'm considering as possible future inmates of a marine aquarium in my home, however, are NOT the pyroclastic steenei, but something a tad more manageable.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

So the 75g tanks have megaflow systems installed and the guy said they are rated at 800gph. However he has the same system and managed to push it up to 1200gph without any problems. Wouldn't that be alot to run through one 29g refugium? He had to check what exactly it would cost for what I want instead of the predesigned package they currently have in the store but it's somewhere around $300-$400 for tank, all the plumbing, stand, and possibly a hood that will accomodate 6 pc bulbs. I'd just need a retrofit kit, some acrylic or precut glass pieces for the sump, and any mechanical filtration and I'd be set for hardware. It's all that rock that's gonna make me go broke. I'm probably going to end up only doing half of it in live rock and the rest using the dry stuff from the bulk rock bins.