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ARGHHHHHHHHH

The curse continues....

I just added 4 blue damsels to bolster my falling stock numbers & although a little upset the resident yellowtail damsels have accepted them (More than enough room for all).

However late last night I discovered my Yellow tang/Powder blue tang/1 yellow tail damsel all gasping.

This morning the damsel & yellow tang were dead!!

What's going on???

The water is more than oxygenated enough - I have a deltec skimmer that is blowing bubbles through the water & a powerhead at the waters surface. The temp is table at 25. No nitrate reading & I have a UV steriliser on to combat any diseases.

Any possiblities??

OK. Red algae is also an indication of lack of current. Excess tiny bubbles can cause PH swings. You need to test your PH at different times of the day...including when your lights are off. There is a test for oxygen level. Be sure to test for copper. Old tanks often have copper in them, especially if they were originally a FW tank. Pretty much all marine life is sensitive to copper, and it is near on impossible to get it all out of a tank that has had it in there.
Now one final question: How large is your sand? Is it small sand, or the larger, more grainy type?

Hi Gatoruk,
I'm very sorry to hear what is happening to you and your tankmates.

You said you were going to get the water levels checked at LFS this weekend. Did you? What were they?

If the levels were all fine, I would consider breaking down the tank and cleaning the hell out of it. Return your inhabitants to the 55gal, clean your equipment real good, and I know it's expensive but I would consider new substrate as well. You might need to store your inhabitants at LFS and start a completely new cycle. Something is definately wrong in that tank and needs to be fixed.

Again, I'm sorry your having such a bad time

Hi Honey...

Have you actually tested the oxygen level in the water, or are you just assuming it is fine?

I was just assuming. I haven't changed any of the equipment & the fish have always been fine up until recently. Is there a standard test I can buy?

What type of substrate do you have?

I am using crushed argonite sand. Usually about 1 inch deep but thicker in parts!

Is it from the old tank?

Yeas partially from my older tank as I wanted to keep the beneficial citters living in the 'strate.

Is there an excess of tiny bubbles in the water column? Do you have a bubble wall? Any powerheads? Any other filters?

There are quite a few bubbles in the tank coming in from the skimmer but they have always been there and it never seemed to bother the fish before! I am running 2 powerheads - a 402 & 802.

I am also wondering if you are having severe PH swings.

PH has always remained constant (I think) but i have a lot of buffering factors (Argonite sand etc). Just a thought that might help I am getting a hug ammount of red algae growing on the substrate. Never had this in my old tank. I know this would point to excess phosphates but my tests are coming up negative.

I think I will do the following:

Take the water for a thourough test
Change the pre filter on my RO unit
NOT ADD ANYMORE LIVESTOCK until I know what is happening.

Do you think there is anything else I could try?

Thanks

I am going to chime in and go on the side of having the water tested very thoroughly elsewhere. Your kits may be reading wrong. There is SOMETHING in that water. Have you actually tested the oxygen level in the water, or are you just assuming it is fine? Test that too. And test for copper. Also I agree with a longer acclimation time. What type of substrate do you have? Is it from the old tank? Is there an excess of tiny bubbles in the water column? Do you have a bubble wall? Any powerheads? Any other filters? After you answer these, maybe we can help some more, but I am thinking there may be something going on with the oxygen level, or this tank has some copper in it. I am also wondering if you are having severe PH swings. Also could be an "invisible" disease circulating in there.

It's just hooked up to a tap - but I have had the RO unit coming up to six months now. It may be time to order a new membrane!

Well from owning a RO system myself I've just changed the filter out in 6 months and thats about it. What you might want to do is also use your test kits and test your RO water just to be sure or if you have a pool kit to test for chlorine levels.

When I started my tanks I just used the hose from outside and let that sit w/ movement for like 2 days before I did anything to it. My tanks are doing so well my HOB filters on my smaller tanks even have life in them and are sort of a fuge for filter feeders and tiny shrimp and pods.


Also are you on a well system or is your RO system just hooked up to your tap?

Thanks - I haven't had a chance to take water to my LFS. I will try this weekend.

I am not going to add more stock now for a long time to let things settle.

the tank was used but I cleaned it thoroughly out (Without using chemicals)

I have a feeling it may be chlorine in the water - maybe my RO unit is getting old - is there a shelf life on these things (Eg. do you need to change the membranes?)

Have you taken your water to get tested at your LFS? If you already have and they tell you the same results that you have tested, If it was me I would let the tank sit for about a month or so before adding any more live stock. and keep the current livestock you already have in there. Then I would start from scratch and take readings from everything:

salinity, chlorine, ph, nitrates,nitrites, amonia,calcium. (everything there is to take a reading of)

Then I would add livestock 1 at a time and do major research on them. Like, how tolerant they are to diseases stress and what tank mates fit best w/ them. To me the blue regal and yellow tang are problem fish anyways. But the damsels dying is a mystery. They're usually hardy fish. But thats how I would approach it.

To me a hardy FOWLR fish would be a wrasse (lunar,bananna,cortez) I own the lunar and have no problems w/ him. He even survived a amonia spike. Same w/ the Sailfin Tang. The larger clowns if you like them are very hardy also (maroon,or black saddle, or tomato)

I have a 125 gallon w/ a wet/dry system.

Oh one more thing I forgot to ask, when you set up the 140 was it new or was it used and if used did you use any chemicals in it to clean?


I'm sure opinions will vary a lot on this topic. Thats just what I would do. I've been lucky as far as keeping my livestock alive. All my tactics seem to work for me.

Also saw that you posted your nitrates are 5 are you sure thats not nitrites? If its trates your cool if its trites your in serious trouble.

[span class="edited"][Edited by jkalfsbeck 2004-07-01 08:26][/span]

I have recently upgraded from a very successful 55g tank (No deathes) to a larger 140g tank. The move went fine and all the livestock were happy in the much larger tank.

However....

Since getting my new tank fully functional I have lost a lot of stock.

First of the new stock was a cleaner Wrasse that has just dissapeared (2months no sighting). Next was a coral beauty (Dead at the bottom). A suntail goby (Again missing - 1 month no sighting) and finally tonight a spotted manderin.

All the fish I have added acclimatised very well. Started feeding and interacting with the other fish in the normal manner for 2-3 days of observation. Non of the dead bodies had any sign of trauma (Nipped fins etc.)

I have checked the following -

I use RO water I make myself so am happy with the quality (Plus my older stock are fine & coral fine)

Nitrates don't even register

No phosphate register

PH steady at 8.0, salinity at 1.021-1.0215, temp. because of hot weather has been as high as 28 but now steady at 26.

Plenty of live rock with strong red/green & coraline algae.

Lighting is an arcadia T5 unit with 2 normal, 2 actinic - total 216wts. I am running an external Eheim, deltec MCE 500 protein skimmer & Vectron 25 UV steriliser.

I am at a loss as to why these new fish are dropping. I added a powder blue and she is the happiest fish in the tank. Other tanks mates are:

Yellow tang, algae blennie, 2 x Yellow tail damsel, Termally confused maroon clown, cleaner shrimp, fire shrimp, hermit crab.

Can anyone help me - perhaps suggest anything I haven't thought of?

I am very reluctant to add new stock now as it is getting very expensive.

Thanks

Thanks guys

Some great feedback.

I will try to hold my optimism that the Goby and Wrasse haven't gone to the big Aquarium in the sky.

It seems my large hermit crab has passed on as well. (I have been fooled in the past, it was simply malting) however when I examined the large shell (Largest in the tank that it had grown into) it was empty (Except for a bristleworm)

My Nitrate reading has just hit at 5 (Not sure if this is parts per million) the first readable level so I will do a water change tomorrow.

My new coral is starting to shrink as well (Hammer head) coral. I think it must be water chemnistry as light & food are both adequate (Mushroom & polyp both very healthy). The featherduster that was close by it has just died as well!

The light is on at 216 watts for 8 hours a day - that plus the few hours of beneficial sunlight should be more than enough right?

Hopefully I can reverse the bad luck tomorrow with a thorough clean & inspection. Plus I just discovered that gunk had blocked my protein skimmer (For no longer than a week) but this may have attributed to poor water quality) Cleaned it last night and it is skimming as usual now.

However salt mix does not have dechlorinator in it
Crystal Sea has it written on the bucket and I have read elsewhere that the others I mentioned also do.Sorry that I don't recall where I got this info.

salinity at 1.021-1.0215

If you are keeping coral, they would do much better and be much happier in a salinity of 1.023 -1.025.....I personally keep my salinity at 1.027.

I agree with Oleta.......it sounds as if your fish are not acclimating as well as they should.

As far as the chlorine...your ro unit will take care of it, however salt mix does not have a dechlorinator in it.

Well, I have to admit that I can be a tad obsessive and can take a pretty long time to acclimate fish.. 3 to 4 hours is standard and if it's something that's delicate, like shrimp, I'll take even longer..

Normally, I float the bag for about 20-30 minutes to allow for the temperatures to even out, then I'll add 1/2 cup of water every 30 minutes or so.. Once the bag is full I'll dump half of that water down the sink and then start over again.. I even transfer the fish from the small "take home" bag the store gives to my huge "acclimating" bag, which holds about a gallon of water..

I've seen that some folks don't bother to go to that much trouble, but for me that's how it's got to be..

As for not finding the bodies of the fish, you'd be amazed how quick hermits and bristleworms can take apart a corpse.. Add to that a good amount of liverock that can quickly convert the ammonia and the chances of catching a sign that there was a death in the tank become very low..

However, I tend not to lose faith completely.. I've heard stories of disappearing fish that all of the sudden re-emerge, weeks later, so frequently on these forums that I have given up on expecting fish to be absolutely dead unless you find the body..

I am pretty sure Oleta uses the Drip method of acclimation.I do this also for 1 to 2 hrs,in the dark if possible or low light.

All of the salts I have used dechlorinate the water.Also R/O water should not have any chlorine or chloromine left in it.
Red Sea
Instant Ocean
Crystal Sea

Thanks Oleta,

Some very helpful points there.

When I acclimatise I float the bag in the water for min - 30mins to stabalise temp. Throughout this time I am gradually adding water from the tank into the bag in small ammount to acclimistise the fish to the new water chemistry.

Is there any more I can do to make the transition easier?

A silly question I know but one I have always taken for granted - Should I be adding a dechlorinating chemical to RO water? I have always thought the RO process removed chlorine but I have just read somewhere something to the contrary.

I know that Manderins are quite hard to keep as they consome the pod population however I have so much live rock in such a large tank I assumed that this would act as a stabiliser. Plus th LFS said that he had got the manderin feeeding on brine and showed me as proof. It only lasted 6 days in my tank - surely this is not long nough to consume the entire pod population and then starve? No I think it has to be a chemical problem or shock problem, but as I said for the first 5 days she was moving and feeding pefectly!!

Should I be concerned that I can't find the missing fish bodies? My nitrates have stayed low/non existant so either I have a very efficient cleanup crew or they are not dead!

Thanks,

First off, I'm really sorry to hear about the losses..

From reading the description of your tank, the fact that it's your new purchases that are having trouble makes me wonder about the quality of the stock.. If your parameters are stable, it's a good possibility that the collection/shipping/acclimation of these fish may have been too much for them to handle.. You have to remember what alot of these fish go thru to finally make it into your tank.. It's not uncommon for an aquarist to do everything right but lose the fish anyway due to these stress factors..

Also, something to note as a possibility is that several of those fish (namely the cleaner wrasse and the spotted mandarin) can be difficult fish to feed to begin with.. While they can survive for some time with what they find in an aquarium, long term captivity can be an iffy project since they can very quickly deplete their food source..

Although your water tests check that the levels are stable, perhaps take a water sample to your lfs and compare their results with your own.. Just as a way to ensure the water quality readings match up.. Never hurts to double check so you can completely rule out environmental factors.. Stock that has been in an environment for a longer period of time has the ability to adjust with their surroundings, whereas new stock that's probably already suffering from shipping stress would not..

You also noted that you mix your own RO saltwater.. I realize this is a simple question and you've probably already asked the store, but if you haven't you might want to find out at what levels they keep their stock tanks.. I know that my own store keeps their salinity lower than what I keep my home tanks.. Due to that fact I generally take a much longer time acclimating my new purchases.. Also keep an eye on your pH.. It's a bit on the low side..

You might also make sure to ask how long a fish has been in the store's tanks before you make the purchase.. A fish that's just coming out of shipping the day before you purchase it can be a hit or miss selection.. Fish that have been in the store longer, are eating and has had a chance to "rest" before sale would make a more sound choice.. Better to let the fish store take the loss than yourself..

Good Luck with it.. I know how frustrating it can be from first hand experience, but hopefully you'll get this straightened out without further loss..


[span class="edited"][Edited by Oleta 2004-06-26 23:55][/span]