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ok, i decided to try a SW setup and i'm making a big mess of this one i think...for starters, the tank is 29g...i'm trying to cycle it and ordered some live rock...i got 35 lbs of live rock, but i think they arrived dead...i pu tem in the tank and my ammonia shot up to 8 ppm, the highest in my little scale on the paper...there r a couple of things i'm trying to figure out on what i should do and need some advice...<br><br>first, how do u clean dead stuff of live rock...i took the rocks out the other day and scrubbed them a lil but i didnt want to do it too hard b/c i was worried i might scrub live stuff off or ruin the rock to pieces...when i put it back the ammonia still shot up high...should i go ahead and remove the rocks and scrub them with a toothbrush as hard as i can scrub and forget about anything that might still b alive in there?<br><br>second, i bought a 130 watt fixture b/c i wanted to setup a reef tank...should i not have it on right now while i'm still cycling? i was thinking that maybe the light will help stuff grow on the rocks and make them more "alive" and help cycle the tank quicker...<br><br>third, i bought some Nutrafin Cycle and added double dosage yesterday and today...doesnt seem to help that much...curious if i should get some Biospira and if i do, would it help my case right now? i mean will it actually still cycle the tank with all the ammonia still in there and the live rocks left in the tank with "dead stuff" still on it...<br><br>basically i'm trying to figure out what my options r...i'm afraid if i leave it the way it is, it's gonna take me forever b4 the tank cycles...i really want to clean the rock some more but worried about how i should go about doing so without ruining the rocks...i didnt scrub too hard last time and parts of it were falling off...also how do i know if the rock is still alive? i dont see any critters on it, some spots will get a lil cloudy with some sort of film or web stuff on it which i'm assuming r dead parts, there r parts that r green and some red which i'm not sure if it indicates alive or not...pls help b/c i'm lost right now, and sorry about the long post...just trying to figure everything out

Take a deep breath......Its not as bad as you think it is.

It sounds like you used fresh live rock to cycle your tank, which would explain the high ammonia reading....not a bad thing at all.

I would do water changes to lower the ammonia. Yes, you want ammonia to cycle your tank, BUT with ammonia that high it will also kill off alot of the organisms on the live rock that you want to keep. Do a series of water changes to get the ammonia down over the next week, and more critters will live through the cycle.....downside is that your cycle might take a little longer, but you should still be tech. cycled in 4 weeks.

Sit back, relax, do some water changes to keep your levels down and wait it out.


[hr width='40%']I’m here without you baby, but you're still on my lonely mind
I think about you baby, and I dream about you all the time
I’m here without you baby, but you're still with me in my dreams…

Whoa.

First off, welcome to FishProfiles, the salty side. (aka, the Dark Side )

I second Nate. Calm down! Breathe.

Live rock is IMO, the best way to cycle new tanks. Hardy fish like the common damsels are nice; I mean, they’re cheap, hardy, and pretty, but when they grow up, they turn nippy and aggressive, and it’s no fun tying to net out one of those, especially with lots of rockwork.

Your live rock doesn’t really need to be “cleaned” the way you’re saying it. The live rock will essentially be the biological filtration in your tank. If you try to clean it, you’re going to be killing off a lot of bacteria and a lot of hitchhikers. Believe me, there are critters in there that you are not aware of. You may not see them now, but check out your tank with a flashlight at night. Give them some time to adjust…they’ve had a rough journey! When you think about all they’ve been through, from the place they were harvested to the boxes they were packaged in that arrived at your door was NOT an easy trip. They’re gunna be a little stressed out right now, and hiding in the rockwork makes everyone feel like they’re at home.

Stop dosing all the wacky chemicals. Products like BioSpira and New & Improved Cycle work, but your live rock is already going to do that for you! Amazing thing live rock is.

A wise aquarist once said:

“In a reef tank, only bad things happen quickly.”

Another member of this site, Marc, who goes by ACIDRAIN, will tell you that the only three rules of marine tanks are patience, patience, and patience. Like Nate was trying to stress, sit back and wait it out. Think about it: You just added more LR to your tank then you have gallons. This aquarium has seen no ammonia for days possibly, and all of a sudden, BOOM! A mini slice of ocean has been dropped in the tank. Of course the ammonia is going to be high! Don’t worry about it; the only thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn’t add any fish, corals, inverts, etc. Wait for the cycle to complete- if you rush things, you’re only going to have bigger problems in the long run.

Are you running a protein skimmer? I guess a 29 gallon is a little smallish, but never too small for a skimmer. Protein skimmers are like a special type of filter for marine tanks that elimate a great percentage of contaminants and other nasties that you don’t want your sealife to be exposed to. There are many different models; ones that go in sump, ones that HOB, etc. Protein skimming is a great way to help cure live rock and get problems like this one under control, although I’d like Nate to double check me on that…

Now, for a different topic, you mentioned wanting to keep corals. What kind of bulbs do you have over your tank now? What kind of corals are you interested in keeping? Lower light corals are softies, and then LPS, and then the beautiful SPS require much higher lighting. I don’t think I’d even consider keeping SPS without MH lighting---that just seems like you’re begging for disaster. You can get away with less expensive lighting if you’re interested in softies and LPS. I know ACIDRAIN keeps these types of corals, and may be able to help you out a little more.

So put the toothbrushes away, keep your test kits near, and let nature run her course for now. Keep testing, and stop worrying. Let us know how things work out, and remember that there is no such thing as a stupid question. Feel free to post if you aren’t sure of anything, the plunge into saltwater can be a scary one, as I have been learning for the past, ehhh, 4 months, give or take. It’s well worth it in the end though, you will not be disappointed.

Best of Luck.

-Ferret


[hr width='40%'][font color="#000080"]I want to stand with you on a mountain,
I want to bathe with you in the sea,
I want to live like this forever,
Until the sky falls down on me…[/font]

Last edited by Ferretfish at 13-Mar-2005 18:37

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

sorry my computer crashed last nite...thanx for the advices...i do understand that live rock should cycle my tank, but what worries me is that the live rock i received were dead...i googled some a couple days ago and i read that u can tell the rock is dead if there is a foul stench coming off of them...now assuming that most if not all of the organisms in the rocks are already dead, then i'm worried that's what's causing the skyrocket in my ammonia...and i read u're suppose to try to clean all the dead stuff off or else that would pollute the tank for a very long time...so instead of the live rock being beneficial, the "dead" live rock is actually causing more harm in my tank...and also, i've done 3 water changes in the past week, and still when i check the levels right after the water change, ammonia is still off the charts...so i just wasnt sure if i should have to "clean" the rocks first or go ahead with more water changes...



now as for corals, i'm still deciding right now but i'm looking at having an anemone for some clown fishes, some button polyps, an orange sun coral, and an elephant's ear? (i can't remember correctly what it was)...i bought a PC fixture with 130 watts on it so i'm looking at roughly 4.5 wpg...i was hoping that much light would give me more choices as to what kind of corals to put in there...but prob will stick to soft corals in the long run

now as for corals, i'm still deciding right now but i'm looking at having an anemone for some clown fishes, some button polyps, an orange sun coral, and an elephant's ear? (i can't remember correctly what it was)...i bought a PC fixture with 130 watts on it so i'm looking at roughly 4.5 wpg...i was hoping that much light would give me more choices as to what kind of corals to put in there...but prob will stick to soft corals in the long run

Elephants Ear Mushroom:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=657

Those guys get gigantic. I'd watch out for them eating your shishies too...not a great idea IMO, especially if you're going to be keeping smaller shishies.

Button Polyps:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=670

Nate had a beatiful orange sun polyp I think it was called...I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to but I found this:

Yellow Colony Polyp:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=675
[href]

Those last two *should* be okay but will need special feedings I think. Make sure you have enough time to be able to keep up with them. I think Nate could elaborate on the feedings a little bit more.

4.5 watts per gallon should be enough for some of the lower light corals, but I'm not sure you'll be able to get away with some that require moderate to higher lighting. Def. keep away from SPS.

And I thought all LR had an interesting aroma...



[hr width='40%'][font color="#000080"]I want to stand with you on a mountain,
I want to bathe with you in the sea,
I want to live like this forever,
Until the sky falls down on me…[/font]

Last edited by Ferretfish at 14-Mar-2005 15:04

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

thanx for the links...the first two look like the ones i was interested in...one of the lfs that have nice reef displays has an elephant's ear in one tank with an anemone and some clown fishes...never really thought of it trying to eat small fish...but i'm sure i'll learn more things as i go when i do more research b4 i figure out exactly what i put in the tank...as for lighting, i thought 4.5wpg would b pretty good light, but i guess it's not the same standards as freshwater tanks...so to clarify, what exactly is considered low, medium, and high lighting based on wpg for saltwater tanks?

Rather than explaining it myself, I'm going to let Hennie Landman explain it to you.

And I quote:


Lighting

This will depend on the type of set-up:

"Fish Only" (FO) tank only needs enough light to view the fish comfortably.
If you use "Live Rock" (FOWLR) in your tank, then you should not have less than 2.5-3.0 W/gal (more is better).
"Soft" corals such as star polyps and mushrooms require about 3-4 W/gal (again, more would be better).
Hard corals, clams and anemones need a minimum of 6-8 W/gal, depending on the water depth.
Normal Output (NO) fluorescent lights are mostly used on FO or FOWLR systems, but can be used quite successfully on Reef tanks as well, provided one has the space to accommodate all the tubes. As an example, I have kept a Carpet Anemone in my marginal reef tank for more than 8 months, using 8 x 40W NO tubes on my 55 gal. tank. (I have since upgraded to metal Halides)
PC (Power Compact) fluorescent lamps are nearly as bright as metal Halides, and are quite suitable to keep all types of marine animals in all but the deepest tanks. They are quite expensive, though, and not always obtainable.
VHO (Very High Output) fluorescent lamps are "old technology", and are being superseded by the PC's or MH's.
MH (metal Halide) lamps are the brightest lamps available, and nearly equal the intensity of sunlight. They are probably the most suited type of lighting for deep tanks, and for "Reef" type set-ups with light loving animals such as SPS corals, clams and anemones.
The light "Colour temperature" is also very important. Water "absorbs" the longer wavelength light (the red, orange and yellow colour) at a shallower depth than the shorter wavelength light (green, blue and violet). If one descended from the surface of the ocean, the red light would disappear first, and the last light remaining at depth would be violet.

Sunlight at the water’s surface has a colour temperature of 6 500K. I don't have exact figures, but I believe that the 10 000K light spectrum approximate a depth of around 10m (33') below the surface, and the "bluer" 20 000K spectrum is equivalent of light at a depth of about 20m (66')

Because *most* corals live closer to the surface, 10 000K light would actually be more natural for them than 20 000K light. If one were to set up a "deep water" tank, containing species living at greater depth than that of a "normal" shallow reef, one would be better off to use the 20 000K lamps.


That should help you out a little bit. For more info on lighting, visit this link from RC. RC has lots of good beginner articles, and a very large forum with thousands of members. I get lost there all the time. I suggest reading the articles found on that site, especially the one I linked you too. Hope that helped!!!

http://www.reefcentral.com


-Ferret


EDIT: That passage was really hard to read when it was bold and italicized at the same time.


[hr width='40%'][font color="#000080"]I want to stand with you on a mountain,
I want to bathe with you in the sea,
I want to live like this forever,
Until the sky falls down on me…[/font]

Last edited by Ferretfish at 14-Mar-2005 17:42

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish