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I continue to think it shows a complete and utter lack of empathy for living creatures.
There's a lot more to overstocking than water quality, although keeping water quality even at "acceptable" on a permanent basis for that many fish in a 5 gallon is simply impossible. If you go on vacation for a week, or fall sick, or get caught up in work - the tank will crash. Moreover, forcing that many fish to live in that tiny space, clean water or not, is still well within what I define as cruel.
I also was referring to the Serpaes, not the betta.

EDIT: I don't believe I was flaming; nonetheless I have edited my remarks because you believe that I was. I am definitely stepping out of this conversation now, as there is clearly nothing I can say that will change your mind, and it's hurting my heart just thinking about those poor fish. Good day.

[span class="edited"][Edited by LittleMousling 2004-09-04 15:33][/span]

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

I think the aim of the experiment is to isolate crowding effects from others and determine how they influence behaviour. Similar work has been done on other animals. One of the interesting outcomes in the case of rats is this: if they have unlimited food, decent hygeine etc., but cramped living space, a percentage of the males develop female characteristics and solicit attention from the remaining males - in effect, they turn gay (???). Whether anything like this would be seen in fish remains a moot point, because fish never experience crowding in the wild unless it's accompanied by some ecological disaster that wipes them out before they have chance to manifest unusual behavioural idiosyncrasies.

Even so, Fry, I'd have chosen an easier setup to manage, a 5 gallon will present headaches that will possibly interfere with the intention of your experiment. Try it in a larger aquarium, and also, try it with one or two species first, before trying to sort out the complexities of a multi-species setup. If you're going to be scientific about it, start with the simplest case first and work up.

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I'm not entirely convinced of what, if any, 'psychological effects' overstocking would have on the fish.. except distress as they die.

Serpaes are definately fin-nippers. One of my friends had a school of serpates, a school of neons, and a school of glo-lites in a 29g tank. The serpaes attacked the neons and glo-lites and he eventually had to remove 4 of the serpaes from the tank to keep them under control.

I don't see how this will prove anything... we know that the general stocking rule applies to tiny fish and was designed many years ago when all we had were sponge filters and aquarium salt to keep our fish healthy. Your tank will, very simply, crash, and your fish will probably die. I really hope you decide not to do this "experiment" of yours.

Fry:
Given that you supply your stock with a constant source of fresh water, your experiment may work. However, years of experience has revealed that overstocking a tank typically results in undue stress upon the hobbyist.

as i said, i agree that highly overstocking such a small tank would be easily lost, and so i'm planning to have much smaller ammount of fish in the tank in the end.
upgrading? i'd love to! now i only have to save a salary and a half to do that...(my plan is for 40G DIY tank)

have a 55 gallon, and if i put 25 cardnal or neon tetrqas in there, the tank would look so dumb and bare, yet you guys say it will be "fully stocked"

Actually, I wouldn't say that it is fully stocked. You could put about 50 neon tetras in there. That would NOT be a bare tank.


Anyways, back to the topic on hand. If you insist on overstocking to prove whatever hypothesis right, at least do it in a bigger tank. Tanks as small as that 5 gallon crash too easily. There just isn't enough room for the fish. Upgrade to at least a 20 gallon.

Besides, we already know that the inch per gallon rule is wrong. There's no reason to risk fishs' lives for that.

---

They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

I dont entirely agree with this expiriment is suck a small tank (a 20-55 gallon would be better), but it will probably prove everyone that uses the fish per inch gallon or whatever rule totally wrong.

I have a 55 gallon, and if i put 25 cardnal or neon tetrqas in there, the tank would look so dumb and bare, yet you guys say it will be "fully stocked"



Last edited by Lindy at 27-Sep-2004 06:08

an idea might be stupid without the thinker to be one. an idea can't be mentally ill, but the thinker can. therefore, it is kind of flaming, so you carefully called me a sociopath.

you say keeping water parameters is impossible. i say it was already done.

i do agree that it might be too over-the-edge to control over a point. and i will lower the ammounts of fish in the tank (no cories at this time, for example).
i do want to see what will happen, because i did have that much overstocking before for lack of knowledge, and the fish seemed to get along just fine, hence it isn't cruel, because i don't expect them to beat each other up.

you say serpae tetras nip fins? i had them, and they never did, even to the slow moving gouramis. they also never bothered each other.

i'm planning to have some experimenting done about overstocking. i'm using a powerhead filter that is about 7 times too strong (i'm breaking the output jet not to injure the fish), so phisiologically, the pressure is off.
i also got to a pretty high overstocking and maintained this condition for a long time (overstocking=4"/G). then i put these fish in a 20litre tank:
5 zebra
5 serpae tetra
2 dwarf gouramis
1 CAE

now i know i shouldn't had the CAE with the gouramis, because they're too slow not to get catch by that slimesucker, that 2 gouramis is trouble, that zebras scare the   out of small gouramis, etc. yet, the whole stock minus the CAE held for 9 months with 0 fatalities, until i inserted the CAE which was infected with a deadly desease that wiped them all in about a month and a half
calculating the "biolength" i got to about 4"/G, and maintained it quite well.
oh, back then, the only plants i had in my tank were plastic.

so, in my experiment i will try to notice what fish go well with others even in a pretty cruoded tank, while checking their schooling behavior, stress, inter-species interactions, territorial behavior, and water statification (will there be a territory in depth? will certain species use only part of the water regions depending on other species?), etc.

i was planning to use the species below, as they're not too jumpy (noone likes noisy neighbours on a small appartment building), and i don't expect them to directly attack each other. they are each from another family, and are easy to distinct (another interesting parameter).

ok, stocking planned:
5 penguine tetra
3 cherry barbs
2 ottos
1 blue female Betta
3 bronze cories

i'm also keeping part of my tank heavily planted, and the other part almost barren. i'm going to use several different kinds of plants to see which fish prefer which plant. and it's all quite small, so it would be hell to balance. i know it.
i'd also like to add that i'm going to add those fish a bit at a time, and check for results, and not just dump them all in a tank and see which survive. i'll look for bad influence for at least 2 weeks before daring to change the setting.

do you think i'm completely wrong with that experiment (beside almost insane overstocking)?
what do you expect will happen?
are my cpecies picks reasonable?
will the cories and the ottos get along?
will the betta keep to herself?
will be some kind of a clash between the small schools?
will there be schools at all?
what should be the order of introduction to the tank?

LittleMousling, calling me a sociopath is a little too far, don't you think?
if not, i think i know what YOU are.

i think you almost agree with me that water parameters are much better than the "/G rule. if so, what is overstocking?

for your little remark about me calling the fish weak when i kill them, well, when they all live for almost a year and suddenly start to develop lessions a week after a new member is introduced, well, you don't have to be a genius to figure that out.
have you ever tried mixing the female betta with penguins?

i do accept all of your replies saying that a 5G is too small for something like this, though, and i think i will tone it down to smaller proportions.

Actually, there's a very, very good babis for stocking limits: nitrate (and in tanks as overstocked as yours, ammonia) tests. This is practically a digital readout of "how overstocked am I?"

As Babel said, what you're attempting could be done to the same degree in, say, a 55, and you could probably keep water quality high enough for it to be safe ... although I still think it would crash eventually.

In a 5 gallon, the idea is simply ludicrous. I can absolutely guarantee you that what will happen, no matter how slowly you build up to that stocking level, at some point very soon into this "experiment" most of your fish will die. But I wonder - will even that be enough to show you that rules regarding the health and lives of creatures who deserve both have a basis in reality? I suppose to a certain kind of person, as long as the deaths happen a few days or weeks apart, it's not the experiment - it's weak fish! Or a disease introduced by some addition! Of course it's not that the tank is horribly overstocked, unimaginably packed with fish, and combining, among other things, known fin-nippers with fairly sensitive tetras!

I just hope the fish in the store really, really run away from the net that's catching them for you. Would you put a dozen dogs in one crate? A class of children in one crib? A powerhead isn't a filter, remember - I don't care how strong it is, it can't maintain water quality in tat tank. Nothing could, unless you had a 20 gallon sump! If you want to experiment, try something like that - does a huge sump on a medium-sized (not tiny, like the one you're using) tank allow for overstocking without stress on the fishes' parts? That's a fair experiment. Yours is absolutely and without question an exercise in cruelty and with a good hunk of pitiless, unfeeling behavior on the side, and there is nothing at this point you could say to convince me otherwise, except "You're right, the project is scratched."

[span class="edited"][Edited by LittleMousling 2004-09-04 15:31][/span]

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

the reason i think of it is that i don't believe the stocking limits given, and i'd like to see for myself.
as i said already, i'm not going to dump them all in one tank and see what happens, but to gradually increase the population. by this i'm trying to resolve peoblems that might happen (what you refered to as cruelty).
it is tricky, and i'll have to keep a close eye on the tank, but i already doing it, and got used to it, and it was fine.
i've never had any problems with water quality in the past, although at the time i was misinformed and had such a bioload already. the only risk is infection in the tank, which i'm aware of and have a way to manage it.

anyway, i disagree that this is cruelty any more than keeping fish at all, because i haven't seen any real explanation for stocking limit rather than some waving of hands, and my experience proved me otherwise.

i do concider not adding the cories at all. thanks.
the betta is also off for now.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Fry 2004-09-04 08:49][/span]

Overstocking is one thing. Overstocking a small tank is something else entirely different. If this were a 55 or even a 20 gallon tank with the same ammount of overstocking with the fish you listed, it might be a different matter. However since you're working with a very VERY small tank combined with some active fish (corys, barbs, and the betta depending) I think it's just cruelty in the making. None of us approve of goldfish in anything under a 55, especially after some of the pictures we've seen. I cannot approve of this "experiment".

^_^

I agree with the above, it seems like intentional cruelty to me.



~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

I have to just totally say ditto to everything janna said, why on earth would you want to purposely overstock a tank? IMO thats cruel and a waste of your money too. I'd be surprised if you could examine all the behavioral traits that you want to in a tank that size, they'd be so cramped anyway you couldn't tell to much about territories. And they will obviously be stressed bc the bioload will be a lot, so I don't think there is need for experimentation.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Wait, this is in a 5 gallon? Why are you purposely overstocking, when you know it is wrong? They are better ways to see schooling behavior, etc.

If you are totally set on doing it, there are at least some stocking changes you can make that will help some. Instead of penguin tetras, get neons or cardinals. Get 6 for a school. They are smaller. Instead of bronze cories, get a much smaller species, and get 6. You could get hastatus, pygmaeus, hasbrosus, or skunk cories. I wouldn't get the cherry barbs. You're pushing it already, why risk them all just for another trio of fish?

do you think i'm completely wrong with that experiment (beside almost insane overstocking)? I don't think it is right do to experiments that might be detrimental to the health of the fish.

what do you expect will happen? I think it will go ok for a while, then something will happen and the tank will crash, since it is so small with so many fish.

are my cpecies picks reasonable? I mentioned the changes I would make above.

will the cories and the ottos get along? Yes, they are both peaceful.

will the betta keep to herself? It depends on the betta. They all have personalities.

will be some kind of a clash between the small schools? No, they will keep to themselves, most likely.

will there be schools at all? Not without at least 6. That is why it would be better to do this in a larger tank. You can't comfortably fit ONE school in there, let alone 2 and more fish.

what should be the order of introduction to the tank? It doesn't really matter, but I'd probably add the betta last as she is the one most likely to have a territory.

---

They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.