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I was informed incorrectly when I received my new 75g tank that after it was setup I could just put my fish from the already established tank into it and they would be fine. I did exchange water between the two tanks to lessen the trauma on my fish. Of course now after some research I find out that I should have cycled the tank for 6-8 weeks. I am afraid for my little buddies. The tank was setup on May 30th and I have tested the water today and the ammonia is at 1.0ppm, the nitrites are at 0.50ppm and the nitrates are between 2-5ppm. Could someone tell me if the tank is cycling how much danger are my little guys in?

Also, I inherited 2 of the fish, one I have identified as an irridenscent shark but have had no luck in identifying the other. I was told it is a peacock eel but have not been able to find a pic of one anywhere to verify this. It looks like a catfish...white underbelly, gray body with some very small specks, and a wide mouth with whiskers below it's mouth. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks all!

Depends how tough your stock is to be honest, generally the cycle takes around 21-28 days and any fish that isnt exceptionally tough is vulnerable to all the effects off ammonia poisoning. Its not safe until the ammonia and the nitrite read a big flat zero, but if your asking for odds we cant really give them, some fish survive while others do not. The nitrate is of course much more negotiable with most fish not at significant health risk over the short term until levels hit over 60ppm or so. The ammonia peak is currently the most dangerous, but the nitrite can be almost if not equally as toxic. The nitrate reading does show the cycle is beginning , but completion will be over a week away. If they can make it that long they will probably survive.


As for the eel/catfish we'd need more details, perhaps a photo, the details you just gave could be any of several hundred species. This is a peacock eel, and that is presumably not what you have.

http://www.aquariumfish.net/images_01/eel_peacock_striped.jpg

Almost sounds like your catfish could be a synodontis, or one of the weather loach/kuli loaches.

Any amount of ammonia can affect their health but generally I don't let it get over 2ppm ammonia for any fish I've happened to have in an uncycled tank. Fish can often survive higher levels but they may have permanent damage and live a shorter lifespan. Some fish won't survive testable amounts of ammonia even if it's below .25 on your test kit so you do need to keep in mind what fish you have. I've never had nitrites become an issue. If they continued to rise without turning to nitrates then they could cause death for even hardy fish but usually by the time the nitrites look possibly high the nitrates show up and the tank finishes cycling. It's the ammonia to nitrite phase that usually takes the longest and has the highest risk for the fish.

Thanks for the info guys. Would you suggest daily partial water changes until the ammonia goes to zero? Should I use "Ammo Lock" or "Cycle" to help the cycling process?

I'm just very unsure of what values of ammonia or nitrites warrant an emergency situation. I have decreased feeding a bit to try and control the ammonia levels.

So far I have an irridescent shark, my unknown buddy, a dojo loach, and one lone black phantom tetra. I hope with your help and my love they will live long enough to meet their new friends when the tank is cycled.

Thanks again! Your help and knowledge is soooo appreciated.

Personally, from my experience, I would not recommend daily small water changes as this reduces the number of bacteria in the tank and thus slows down the cycle. Do you still have the old tank running or know someone with a cycled tank? If so take some of the filter medium or gravel from that tank and put it in yours, as this will increase the number of bacteria in your new tank and speed up the cycle. If you use the gravel you can put it in a stocking or simular to keep it seperate from your gravel and then return it if you need to. I have never used ammo-lock and wouldn't (unless you really need too to save your friends) as you will get false readings when you test your water and therefore wont know how things are going. You can use cycle as this too will add good bacteria to your tank but my experience is that the overall effects will be minimal. I am no expert (and someone will proberly tell me my advice is wrong) but this is my opinion.
Good luck and keep us informed....

DASHMAN

Its better to be hated for who you are...
Than loved for who you are not

Hi,

Regarding your unidentified buddy... the fact that you had been told it was an eel, along with the description of catfish features leads me to think that you may have an eel-tailed catfish. There is a profile on this site... look here for more info on this species

Unfortunately the pic with that profile does not show the disctinctive eel-like tail. Here is another link that has more pictures.

G_T

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

Weve had cases here where daily water changes and excessive use of ammolock have actually prolonged the cycle quite significantly , thusly its not always a good idea,and in your case , since the cycle is obviously underway and there is already some detectable nitrate, it might be better just to let it complete unhindered, but you can keep ammolock handy or reconsider the odd water change if you see all the usual signs of ammonia poisoning in your fish, like redness of gills and breathing distress, and raised veins near the tail. Make decisions based on the visible condition of the fish, keep feeds to a minimum quantity, and just ride it out as much as possible.

Thanks again for the opinions. I would rather not do water changes since I did figure it would lower the bacteria some and it's also a pretty big job for a 75 g aquarium. Not as easy as my 20 g, that's for sure. I will continue to monitor my water quality daily and see how things go. The fish seem to be thriving, no signs of distress at all.

Also, after a few hours of research I did finally identify my little mystery friend. He is a Midnight Catfish, aka Zamora Woodcat. I found him on Planetcatfish.com. What a nice website, so many pics. I found it very useful, as is this website.

I will keep this post updated on how things are going. I'm sure I will have more questions for you knowledgeable fish enthusiasts. You guys are the best! Thanks again. /:'

Daily water changes would prolong the cycle unless the fish were producing massive quantities of ammonia. However doing water changes every few days to keep the ammonia low(but still definitely testable) does not seem to slow the cycle down at all. I've cycled tanks in less than 3weeks with no added bacteria and doing water changes every other day to keep ammonia between .25 and .5ppm. I've also had tanks take nearly 2months to cycle when I let ammonia get up to 5ppm. I don't think the amount really matters but the fact that there is some ammonia there. If you do so many water changes that the ammonia is kept lower than .25ppm or you don't back off the water changes as the tank cycles then the bacteria will have no food to reproduce. Having 3ppm versus 1ppm isn't going to make any difference though because there is still more food than the bacteria can use and they will still multiply at their maximum.

Cycle may help a little. It at least won't do any harm. I wouldn't suggest ammolock if your actually trying to get a tank to cycle. It's good for emergencies but can cause issues with a cycle. I have had good luck with using a double dose of prime. The tank still cycled quickly and I didn't even lose shrimp despite the ammonia testing 1ppm for several days.

Save your money, dont buy ammo lock or Cycle. Cycle doesnt even work at all.
If you can locate it in your area, get some BioSpira. It does work. It comes in the rerigerated area of your fish store.
Also, remember - youre not raising bacteria, youre raising fish. If daily water changes are needed, do them. Your cycle make take longer, but youre fish are less likely to suffer long term effect from ammonia poisoning - such as permanent gill damage.
I would do a 30% water change (no gravel vac) every time ammonia tests 1.0 ppm or higher.
Adding water from a cycled tank will do little to nothing. Most of the bacteria lives in the gravel and filter media. If you can get biospira do so, if you cant, get some used sponges or something from a cycled healthy tank.


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The theory on water changes during cycling depends on the severity of the ammonia, some fish collapse under the strain of long term exposures,even low level ones as nature itself gears most fish with a tolerable time limit of exposure,and this is variable. Some fish will last better under higher toxicity for a shorter period, and vice versa, basically it depends on the fish. There is no way to be conclusive about it, apart from when levels are so high that they would be a lethal danger to most fish, and its those higher peaks you have to watch.

Its not so much that theres two schools of thought as two potential possibilities, neither of which can really be known by the fishkeeper. The pragmatic approach is to keep the worst of it off them, and just hope the cycle completes as quickly as possible. Your only forced into a position of action when the ammonia and nitrite may peak very high, aside from that , its sitting and waiting for it to be over and hoping the fish make it.

Never did like cycling using fish, never will. Its a gamble full stop.Only done it when been forced into it by unavoidable use of a med that kills filter bacteria.

You have to change the water when you have to, and not before, and to know that requires almost daily testing. Gotta admit, I never did enjoy that period of being on edge.

longhairedgit,

I am monitoring everyday and you stated:

"There is no way to be conclusive about it, apart from when levels are so high that they would be a lethal danger to most fish, and its those higher peaks you have to watch."

I guess that is my question now. What are those levels? I know anything over 0ppm is bad, but what is lethal to most fish? 1ppm, 4ppm? What levels are considered a peak? And after the ammonia peaks, does it start to go down then? I guess I'm just trying to judge how bad everything is and if I should brace myself to watch my little friends die.

Believe me, I never would cycled with fish if I would have had better knowledge. That was my fault. I listened to someone I thought knew what he was talking about, a supposed "reputable" fish and aquarium dealer. I guess you can't believe everything you hear. I could just smack that guy, to tell you the truth.

Thanks for the info and I will keep the post updated with how things are going.

Oh yeah, i never noticed no-one gave you a set of stats on ammonia to go on, I reckon as an average 1-2 ppm for a cycle is about right,up to 5 ppm is tolerable for the toughest species and much beyond that, kiss the fishes goodbye. Do around a 20% water change if it nears 3 ppm. Nitrite has a roughly similar toxicity too, and if both reach that high, WC again. Week one is a swine week two has athe odd nasty surprise, and week three things start to get more tolerable. Its averages really, different tanks react differently but thats the averages I go on.

You can work it out backwards from nitrate.Theres loads of variables that have an effect like exact water composition, trace elements, gaseous exchange,temperature etc, so lots of people will give you varying answers, but a shorthand way to look at it is this :

Nitrate starts to get toxic at over 40 ppm, and nitrate is roughly 40-50 times less toxic than ammonia.So one ppm ammonia is like 50ppm nitrate,it aint healthy, and 2 ppm is closer 100 which is life risking, in the short terms, ie a few days to a few weeks, 3 is nearly 150, and that will kill most fish within hours to days. Over 5 ppm only the toughest catfish , lungfish, the odd betta or danio will ever survive more than a few days or hours, being that its roughly (and I do mean roughly) the equivalent of 250ppm, which is basically like living in a drainage ditch full of cows urine.

It varies enormously, as do fishes tolerances, I have for example seen a reliably recorded and tested tank where ten danios didnt make it a full week on 1 ppm, and ive seen apistos take 4 ppm for 3 weeks, sometimes it just doesnt happen as you might expect, and while I believe some fish are tougher than others, I also believe that no fish with conventional gills is truly suitable for cycling a tank with. Well apart from a lungfish. You could cycle a bath full of soapy water with one of those, lol.

I sympathise on being told different at a pet shop though, i'd be mad as hell too, but for some reason people keep recommending it as almost standard practice despite the fact that hundreds of thousands of people and their fish will fall foul of this bad habit. Its one of my pet hates and frankly it really p's me off that people hand out advice that causes so many casualties so cavalierly."Oh I did it and my fish were fine". Bottom line its patience versus fish health, and theres nothing wrong with a little patience. Yes some people do pull it off, and no its not good practise. Its just one of those traditions from the dark ages of fishkeeping that people wont let go, along with holiday feeder blocks, and goldfish in bowls,and putting tons of salt into tanks for no reason. Its a knowledge that has been superceded, but folks wont move on.

In a one-on -one situation I have been known to tell people just to shut the hell up about it Plus as far as im concerned the fish shop I now work in wont be giving out that kind of advice again. Ever.

In fact the latest trend in sshops round here is to recommend putting fish into a tank at the two week point of a cycle, which is frankly retarded. Its the point when not only is ammonia still present, but nitrite will be in full production too. So take a fish from a cycled shop tank and drop it into a tank where two different types of toxicity are occurring, and give it some instant environmental shock. Smooth moves sherlock. For some reason, probably the ruthless pursuit of financial gain, shops will do almost anything other than tell the truth. The thing is they are only harming their customer base, and I wish more shops would take the hint and change their ways. seriously, would you trust advice from anyone who is so mercenary as to risk the health of your fish for an immediate sale that in the fullness of time would happen anyway?

All this because pet shops dont want to say the real truth -which is just bloody wait 21-28 days then come back, or use cycling products and hope you make it in 14-21. All of which goes to show, you should never trust anyone trying to sell you anything. Well except me obviously, but then I dont happen to care if I get fired Health before sales whether they like it or not. To me that makes a good fish shop. If people are put off fishkeeping by a 21 day wait then I say fine, let them not keep fish anyway, they wouldnt have the legs for it, and anyone without at least that level of patience has no business keeping animals anyway.

Might not go down well with my manager , but he'll have to suck it up If folks ask me a question, theyll be given the truth.

longhairedgit,

Thanks again for all the wisdom. Are ya sick of me yet?

You are so right about the shop that gave me the bad advise. His shop is close to my house and I really liked some of the fish he had there and he would have made a bundle of money from me if he would have told me the correct info. Now that he has put my little friends in danger and caused me worlds of stress, he won't get another penny from me. What an idiot.

As far as people who support cycling with fish, maybe they don't see anything wrong with sacrificing a few or causing injury to some. That is just not my way at all. I would never intentionally cause another animal any pain.

I came across the same situation when my bird was ill and I would take her to the vet and people thought I was nuts. Sure it was expensive, but she was my friend and my responsibility, so I took care of her and made sure she got the best care I could provide. I know many thought she was "disposable". "It's just a bird" they would say. But they didn't know she had personality and character and showed as much love as any dog or cat. I guess it's all a matter of persective.

My readings on Sunday were Ammonia-2ppm, Nitrite-.50ppm and Nitrate-between 2-5. I did a small water change. It's hard for me to do much more than 10 or 20 percent with such a large tank. Monday's readings were Ammonia-1ppm, Nitrite-1ppm, Nitrate-5-10ppm. I will check them again tonight.

Thanks for sharing soooo much of your knowledge. Hopefully someday I will know enough not to do my friends any more harm.

Hopefully someday I will know enough not to do my friends any more harm.

Does seem that way when you begin doesnt it?

I'm sure you'll come along just fine, and pass the info on, saving more lives than you ever lost. At least thats the way I hope it works.

Man, I can attest to that... lol I've lost two of my initial 4... it kinda sucks but it's part of the game I guess... It's been quite a learning experience thus far!

Well, I got deperate and I tried Bio Spira today. I will test again tomorrow night and see if it made any difference at all. I'll report on the results.
The fish still look real healthy. My "shark" (Irridescent shark)still hasn't eaten though, but he doesn't seem to be in any distress. At first I thought it was because of the gravel color change since the shrimp pellets he eats are the same color as the new gravel as compared to the old blue gravel, when the pellets were real visible. Everyone tells me he should be able to smell them and find them that way, but he doesn't seem to be able to do that. I added a large colored flat rock as kind of a feeding station for him, but that doesn't seem to be working either. He could be eating flake food and maybe I just haven't noticed. He has me puzzled. Maybe he is just upset about the whole change and will be more comfortable eating when he is settled in better.

Fish count: Still have the original 4 friends...I'm trying to stay hopeful.

Scottf...I hope your little guys make it.

It could be environmental stress putting him off, but sometimes sharks will do the feeding at night in such situations, and sometimes shrimp pellets arent immediately appetising. Try putting a little frozen bloodworm in just before lights off and see how he does.

Well, it's been 24 hours since the Bio Spira..Ammonia went down to .25ppm, Nitrite is steady at 2ppm, and Nitrates up to 10ppm. Cycle seems to be underway, but no miraculous results like Bio Spira claimed to have.

I found out what was going on with my shark friend...he was sneakin'. lol I put some pellets in last night on the feeding stone I put in for him. He swam by them but wouldn't eat them. So, I hid in a place where I could see him but he couldn't see me. As soon as he was sure I was gone, he scarfed them up! Sneaky little devil. I think he has better visibilty of me in the newer, bigger tank and was feeling a bit shy.

Whew! Glad that mystery is solved.

Does everyone here use quarantine tanks before adding new fish? I am thinking about settting up my old tank as one since I don't want to take a chance, after all of this, of bringing something unwanted in. Your opinions and advise are greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

Its a very good idea to set up a quarantine, not enough people do it, but they are real lifesavers.