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When I've seeded tanks I've used Biospira along with substastrate and media from already established tanks. This has worked well for me as I've used that method to cycle 4 new tanks. So, I can't tell you if Biospira would do it alone, but I definately think it helps.

lol, I know exactly what you mean. My first tank I tested every day (sometimes twice) hoping and expecting to find the ammonia spike (missed it somehow), then the nitrite spike (never really spiked but I did find noticable levels) and then the nitrates finally went up and nitrites dropped. It was a 29 gallon tank with six harlequin rasboras. I guess I was expecting to see a major fluctuation in the ammonia and nitrite levels during the cycling process but never did. From reading about the nitrogen cycle, as well as many forums here on the subject I thought it would happen fairly quickly, like two weeks and it took three. I was actuallydisappointed that it took so long, like I was missing out on the spikes. lol
BTW, dwarf gouramis are kinda a sensitive fish, which I found out several months after I got them. Treated them thru a case of dropsy and now fin rot. They're looking better now but I think they need a larger tank like at least a 20. I had them in my ten gal and the nitrates spiked in there too easily. As soon as they're better I'm puting them back in the 29.

Last edited by divertran at 24-Jun-2005 21:59

divertran,

What, you are not going to take sides? ]

Now, seriously

[font color="#000080"]where did the ammonia come from in the first place?[/font]

You know what? I have no idea, I never asked myself that question until you brought it up. I checked my brain (kinda) and believe to be sure that 2 days after I set up the tank and used the Biospira for the first time, I had clearly detectable ammonia values, next day the nitrites were going up, next day even more. Biospira is to be used not only once but for the duration of the cycle, which concluded in my tank after 3 to 4 days.

I would assume (yet again another assumption without proof) that the ammonia is already included in the product. No wait, that doesn’t make any sense, except if the bacteria need oxygen and/or light and ammonia in order to interact.

[font color="#000080"]And how many days did you test after you added the fish?[/font]

For about 2 weeks whereby I might have skipped a day toward the end of that period. The fish added in that time were 6 Zebra Danios, which generate a rather small bio load. I also added (in week 2) a Dwarf Gouramy, but it died within 2 days (got the water tested then in the LFS, my readings were 0 but they said I might have a fractional level of nitrite).

I would like to raise a word of caution here, though. It was my very first tank and I might have made a lot of mistakes. Maybe I only envisioned that I cycled and didn’t really evaluate all my results properly. On the other hand, because it was my first tank I might have tested more than I would have had to and that’s why I even remember it so clearly.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Little Fish.....Good! You took the time to read it and found some good and hopefully helpful information. Thanks. As for taking sides, pbbfffftt, lol. Babel did make some good points. Products like Biospira and cycle actually work by introducing MORE bacteria into the water than was previously there. Since the bacteria grows quickly and exponentially (as was also previously stated) it helps to speed up the cycling process by doing just that, introducing MORE bacteria TO multiply.
Also, as a living organism it needs food to thrive and grow. Just putting it into a tank where all there is is water is just putting it into water. It may be easier to liken it to algae.(just a metaphor, mind you) Algae is present in your water. It is, its there. under the right conditions it will multiply and grow. rapidly. Just like bacteria. Conversely, w/o the proper conditions (light, nutrients) it will not grow and you may not even be aware it is there.
I really don't know if it works or not, but I think it helps so I'll use it. I plan to cycle a tank soon using cycle. If it takes less than three weeks like my other tank did then I'll think it helped (not the scientist here).
You said you used it and added fish after you had no more detectable levels of ammonia or nitrite. Just out of curiosity, where did the ammonia come from in the first place? And how many days did you test after you added the fish? When I added fish to my tank for the first time it was six days before I had any detectable levels, then another two weeks for the cycle to complete. I was using stress zyme(a petsmart brand which adds bacteria to speed cycling time), but three weeks seems a bit on the longish side for a tank to cycle.

Last edited by divertran at 24-Jun-2005 11:32

Of all the bacterial boosters out there biospira and cycle are the only two I'd reccomend. In the case of the former it's because I've read of their successful use here on FP (I seem to remember cory_di posting a blow by blow account of cycling a tank using biospira and haveing almost a 24 hour cycle...unfortunatly the post is too old to still be online or I just couldnt find it :%)).
Cycle I've used when losing a large portion of my bacterial population due to a substrate switch. I do suggest both products when people have questions about cycling. While according to my readings biospira seems to be more effective it's also more expensive, must be kept refridgerated and is therefore more difficult to find, especially in instances where someone is dealing with a chain petstore as they often do not carry a refrigerated or frozen selection.

As has been stated many times over, the bacteria is present it just needs a given condition to begin to reproduce enough so that it is available in enough quantities in our tank to support fish life. If the given condition was simply tapwater we'd have no instances of new tank syndrome. However since 1.) nitrafying bacteria is a somewhat slow growing bacteria and 2.) since most of us do not have large quantities of ammonia in our tap water (at least you should hope you dont) the bacteria needs time to grow and or support from an outside (bacteria boosters, seeded sponge gravel ect) source or a food source before it is able to support our fish.
Therefore the products are not compleatly useless, however when not used according to direction (for instance dosing daily with cycle when starting a new tank will often cause an extended nitrIte phase) I'd assume they'd either be not as effective or simply ineffective compleatly. LITTLE_FISH's example of a successful fishless cycle using only biospira is an example, now if there are low levels of ammonia in the tap water is one thing I'd have checked for in this case, just to rule it out as a food source for the bacteria. Additionally if used gravel was used, or any live plants were in the tank they would also provide enough ammonia to keep the bacteria alive and reproducing until the fish were placed in the tank to provide the ammonia.

Have I just confused the matter more ...if so good!



^_^[hr width='40%']"Has someone taken your faith? It's real, the [link=pain]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] you feel.
The life, the love, You die to heal.
The hope that starts, The broken hearts...
I’ve got another confession my friend, I’m no fool.
I’m getting tired of starting again, Somewhere new."

Although it's hard to imagine nitrifying bacteria flying around in the air, I guess I'll accept it. (Hey, I took microbiology last semester, I'm used to thinking about this bacteria stuff.)

Products like BioSpira and Cycle (which I've never used, BTW) claim to contain live bacteria. If they do (and as I said, I have no experience with this) then they would speed the cycle by providing more bacteria to start with. Bacteria grow quickly and exponentially, so starting with more will speed the cycle a lot.

OK, divertran and victa_fish,

As you are taking sides in this discussion (and because it is not mine) I feel
obliged to counter your arguments and maybe someone will finally take my
side (like SJinNJ almost did)

One remark to divertran:

[font color="#000080"]FP, as well as other sites like aquaria central and others, contains a
contains a great wealth of information if one takes time to look for
and read it[/font]

I did just that quite a bit and found conflicting information (hm, just like in this
thread) but all the ones that utilize this kind of bacteria seeding say that only
BioSpira would work. This means that any results you get from using cycle would
not help me as I assume already it would not work.

Now, in order to make my point, let’s assume the following:

1) I know how to read my ammonia and nitrite kits and they are accurate
2) The timeframe in which the typical cycling events occurred in my tank
(29G planted) were as described above

OK, if this stuff is just a waist of money then answer the following questions:

a) Why did I read the typical cycling values during the first week, just way faster?
b) Why did I not see a mini cycle after I added the fish (maybe to small of a load)?
c) Last but not least, do you base your opinion on assumptions or actual experience
(I know the answer to this one already anyway. Nevertheless I would like to make
it a point because we all tend to assume things {see my assumptions above} that
might not be accurate)?

And as a footnote, I would like to add that I really (seriously) enjoy talking to you
all on FP. Even when we disagree there is something to be learned and it is always
entertaining.

Thanks,

Ingo


Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 22-Jun-2005 04:26

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

a very good question and now that u mention it its a tricky one that i've never thought about!
and it makes me wonder if products like stress zuyme
and cycle are realy genuin bio-starters cause theres no food or much oxygen in those bottles! so i'm thinking the best way to cycle a tank is to take mature filter media from an other tank or have little fishies to get it going
so i think babelfish is right that stuff probly only gets ya a few dollars poorer!
declan!

OK, I have been reading this thread and here's what I have to add. Bacteria, needed for nitrification, are already present just about everywhere. In the water, in the air, everywhere. like many other living organisms, they need the proper conditions to thrive and grow. As was previously stated, the bacteria is there, needs something (ammonia, in this case) to spur the growing and multiplying cycles. What products like cycle, stress zyme, bio spera etc. do is add MORE of the bacteria so that it takes hold and grows much more rapidly. W/O it it may take the cycling process longer to complete.
The purpose of running the tank a week w/o fish is multi fold. I don't really think it has mudh to do with cycling, but more to let your water mature and stabilize. To let it degass, let your pH stabilize during that process etc. It is also a good time to make sure all your equipment is working properly. As for the week part, I'm not sure. The water will mature in just a matter of a day or so. I have not fishless cycled yet ime, but am willing to try with my next tank (actually, I have some cycle that I'm going to use, seed it with gravel from my other tank and add a few harleys till it cycles).
I hope this helps clear up some issues for you concernig the cycling process and where the bacteria comes from. FP, as well as other sites like aquaria central and others, contains a contains a great wealth of information if one takes time to look for and read it. Babel I'm on your side on this one. BTW, if anyone disagrees or has other info please chime in.

OK, I was just thinking about this earlier.

So a lot of pet stores tell people to let the water sit in the tank for a week before adding fish. I'm assuming this is just misguided cycling advice (I mean, there's no ammonia or bacteria or anything - letting plain water sit won't do anything!). Well it kinda got me thinking about cycling.

So when you fishless cycle without seeding from another tank, where do the bacteria come from? I guess you *have* to seed it somehow.

So if you cycle with fish, do the bacteria come from the fish? Are we assuming that the fish is carrying at least one bacterium of each type, and that it will divide and start the colonization?

Babelfish,

I had only white cloudy water from day one to three during the fishless week.
Also, there were no further readings of ammonia and nitrite within the following
2 weeks as I tested daily. And my nose is not sensitive enough to smell anything
in that time either (like what would it smell anyway?).

Yes, let’s hope that some real smart person reads this thread and enlightens us.

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here I go getting caught making generalizations again.
I'll admit to never actually cycling a tank with biospira, and that the only times I've used cycle was to help with a substrate switch.

My understanding of both products however is that they need a food source. My understanding of nitrifying bacteria is that it doesnt last too long either without oxygen or without a food source. Combining that is what lead me to the above statement....possibly in error however with any luck we'll get clarification on the issue.

In your case if you had a signifigant enough minicycle after adding the zebras (dectected thru smell for those sensitive to it, visible white cloudynes, or a reading on ammoninia and NitrIte) then it's quite likely that is exactly what happened.

^_^[hr width='40%']"Has someone taken your faith? It's real, the [link=pain]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] you feel.
The life, the love, You die to heal.
The hope that starts, The broken hearts...
I’ve got another confession my friend, I’m no fool.
I’m getting tired of starting again, Somewhere new."

Babelfish,

I am a little confused on your information regarding BioSpira. You say that:

[font color="#000080"]

Just adding it to a new tank that's got no decaying food, no fish, or other
ammonia source isn't going to get you anywhere but a few dollars poorer.

[/font]

Well, I thought we have talked about this product before and we agreed that it
would speed up the cycle quite significantly. What we might have assumed was
that we are talking about the same conditions, but I guess that was not the case.
I used it during the first 4 days after my tank was set up with no fish. Within a
week I had no detectable levels of Ammonia and Nitrite anymore and then I
added my first fish (6 Zebra Danios).

Do you imply that I had no detectable levels anymore because all bacteria actually
died and that I basically started the cycle again once I added the fish?

Thanks,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Figured you knew

The desired species of nitrifying bacteria are present everywhere (e.g., in the air). Therefore, once you have an ammonia source in your tank, it's only a matter of time before the desired bacteria establish a colony in your filter bed.

From our handy dandy FAQ.

^_^[hr width='40%']"Has someone taken your faith? It's real, the [link=pain]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] you feel.
The life, the love, You die to heal.
The hope that starts, The broken hearts...
I’ve got another confession my friend, I’m no fool.
I’m getting tired of starting again, Somewhere new."

Yeah, I realize that with the seeding you need to provide ammonia somehow (fish or fishless) to allow the bacteria to grow to proper levels.

What I wasn't clear on was where the bacteria comes from if you fishless cycle without seeding from another tank. I guess it's possible it's just in the tap water in low quantities... I was just thinking about this and thought I'd post to see if anyone else has random musings about these things, or if I'm the only one.

When I started my first tank I inadvertently fish cycled (didn't know anything) and since then I've been seeding from established tanks and adding small numbers of fish at a time, so there really isn't much of a "cycle" per se.

The thing about lettting water sitting in the tank w/o fish is just to make sure all the equipment is working. I think that the bacteria is in all water but just in low quanities.

Well the letting the water sit might be misguided cycling advice....but aparently it's also good just so that you're sure nothings leaking and everythings working before you even bother to start cycling....or something like that was given as an explination by a FP member here.

As for where the bacteria comes from....it's everywhere. Air, water, ect...but it needs a food source before it can start multiplying properly. In this case properly means enough to do what you want it to do for your fish.
With fishless cycling an ammonia source is used either from a bottle of ammonia, or from decaying fish food.
With a seeded tank you're taking bacteria from an established colony. However if you were to take that bacteria and put it in the tank and let it sit for a week with no food (ammonia from bottle, fish, plants or decaying fish food) the seeding bacteria is likely to die within a few days and you're back to where you started. Same thing with bottled bacteria such as cycle or biospira. Just adding it to a new tank that's got no decaying food, no fish, or other ammonia source isn't going to get you anywhere but a few dollars poorer.

^_^[hr width='40%']"Has someone taken your faith? It's real, the [link=pain]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] you feel.
The life, the love, You die to heal.
The hope that starts, The broken hearts...
I’ve got another confession my friend, I’m no fool.
I’m getting tired of starting again, Somewhere new."