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*doesn't know why you would start a thread to get a question answered, and then proceed to tell everyone their ideas basically are wrong*

most people's rooms ARE in the mid-high 70s

my betta's have always been just as active if not more than dwarf gourami's. and frankly they are more active than most fish IF they are given the chance to be.

and also the whole filtration thing, should always be a issue, different fish prefer different water movement levels. the biggest tank i have a betta in is a 55, and he's doing better than he ever has, and he's not the first betta ive had in this large of a tank. i've seen who quality betta's in tanks as large as 200g with little or no problem. no matter what the size of a tank, you should always make sure the water movement is right for the fish you have. this is something any respectable aquairist should know and do.

o and you brought up another point, about warm water, betta's are tropical fish, so they need a heated tank, which realy can't be done in smaller than a 5g, and i don't know many ppl who have a average room temp in the mid-high 70's.

and bring money into a subject, says NOTHING about a fish, only the owner.

about the territories, they aren't all that small if you think about it, in just about all species, their territories are large enough so they can't constantly see other competators, if you will notice in that pic, posted before the water is quite clear, so this means a even larger territory, now of course the size will depend on which part of their ecosystem they are in, because of how good vision is in it.


but as far a show betta's have never seen any better, think about this, in puppy mills most puppys and dogs are never removed from a single room, and they are rarley large rooms, so does this make it okay to keep them in a room their entire life, we'll few ppl think so, and this is very similar to the betta trade, now i know its not possable to keep every male in his own 5g, especially when large scale breeder can have well over 1000 at a time.

so does the way they have previously treated make it right to just give them a extra gallon and make it right.

and yeah betta's don't always take well to a community tank, they are all individuals, but i have yet to have one that didn't come to enjoy a tank or large tank, with proper filtration and current, which are probably 2 of the easiest thing in a any aquarium to change.

I've tried bowls, vases, small tanks, normal tank, and even tanks over 100g's, and they have always been happier and healthier in tanks than anything else. thou above a 100g's can cause problems with height.

i've had o probably atleast 50+(not includding babys),now maybe i was just lucky that they all liked tanks, but thru out all of them, i never saw anything to show they enjoyed a bowl or small tanks. if given the chance they are quite active, heck the one in my 55 just cruises around the tank checking out everything, includding all the other fish. thou i have had some who didn't like company, and they didn't get any less treatment than the others.

tell you the truth, how many ppl actually know a betta is a labyrinth fish, most ppl just keep them in cups because the pet store tells them they can.

and the idea that they are found in puddles, is never explained, naturally betta's live in swamps and things like swamps(like rice paddies) where most of the year they are large bodies of water, now naturally there is dry seasons, where water gets low, this happens world wide. now these puddles are still much larger than what we would call puddles, most ppl have smaller ponds than these puddles. yes a betta will SURVIVE in one of these puddles, but it won't thrive, and ism't that the goal of keeping animals, is to make sure they thrive.

i mean world wide the puddle thing happens, it happens to most crocidilains, but how often do you hear of somebody(somebody who actually cares) keeping them in a kiddy pool in their back yard.

i mean think about it this way, i could go buy a puppy, put it in a closet and make it live its whole life there, will it survive, probably, will it thrive, no it wont.



[span class="edited"][Edited by alpha 2004-06-15 20:24][/span]

Honestly, what percentage of people would know that both betas and dwarf gourami's are labrythn fish? Look around at the people buying fish at the LFS, how much do they appear to know? Also keep in mind that dwarf gourami's originate from the ganges river delta while bettas come from swamp and little puddles in the ditch. I think people have kept beta's in cups because in nature they have been found living just fine in those conditions, and i think the average person continues it on because everyone else does it.

how active a betta is depends on what you keep it in, mine are all active,and frankly every one i've ever had has been. but if you keep in in some tiny tank or bowl of course it wont be active, but then again how can it be.

most bettas, though i find my plakat is different, aren't very active, whereas gouramis are

betta's go just fine into community tanks, but like ALL fish you have to be careful what you put it with.

and frankly not to be rude, but if you can't afford proper hosuing than why get the fish in the first place, if money is the only reason, than that says alot. i mean i wouldn't buy a oscar and put him in a 5g tank because i couldn't afford a proper size tank.

okay this is a question i've had since the whole betta bowl idea came out.

for those of you who don't know, im not for the betta bowl idea, or frankly keeping anyfish in anything smaller than 5g's.

but anyways this is what i would like to know, dwarf gourami's have the same ability to breath air as betta's, both are about the same size(about a inch differnece), both are equally delicate, and relativley same water conditions. so why do you guys think its okay for betta's to live in bowls, while you think gourami's need tank, this is not ment to critize you guys, its a serious question.

o yeah and also don't use the whole rice paddy, are little puddle stuff, cause they aren't thou they aren't deep, even small ones are larger than a acre, and it's common for them to strech many acres.

so does the way they have previously treated make it right to just give them a extra gallon and make it right

Well, yes, actually, it does. Bettas don't thrive in a cup but bettas will thrive in a gallon of water if that water is clean and the betta is fed. People like to give animals human qualities and feelings but really the intellegence of a fish is not the same. Personality is really temperment and happiness is really contentment in that all the fish's needs are met. It's been proven time and time again that a betta will live a full life with beautiful finnage showing no signs of discontent or stress in a one gallon container. I think that's proof enough. I agree that a betta can live a good life in a large tank with other tankmates but that doesn't make it wrong to have one in a small tank. My bettas are not wishing they were in a rice paddie. They are in a stress-free environment where all their needs are met.

Of course a puppy mill cage is too small for a puppy, just as a cup is too small for a betta. But a small puppy can live in an apartment and a large dog can live in a house, same as betta can live in a 1G while an Oscar can live in a 120G.

Rice paddies really don't matter. Most commercially bred bettas have been several generations from a rice paddy and would not survive in the wild.

___________________________________________

If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished.

I keep my betta boys in one gallon heated tanks. Before I knew any better, my first betta was in a 1/2 gallon tank. Now, I can tell you that, without a doubt, he's much happier in his one gallon tank with heat. He has never been so active. (And who wouldn't be when your previous, smaller apartment was freezing cold at night? Parents and the need to conserve heat... bah!)

Would I like to give them bigger tanks? Yes, of course. Can I afford the money and the parental complaints? Not really. I have no more space to PUT tanks in my room and the shelf that holds my betta tanks won't accomodate anything much bigger. Did I prevent these poor lil bettas from being shoved into a tiny betta hex? Most likely. I know at least one of them was in imminent peril of suffocating on his own waste in the store. The water he was in was disgusting.

On the other hand, I'd love to see them in the same situation as my betta girls... frolicking around my twenty gallon, feeding their insatiable curiousity and making my tank one of the most playful tanks I've ever had the pleasure of seeing. (With the help of their cory and BN friends, of course!) If I could feasibly do that, I'd like nothing better.

I agree that one gallon is probably not enough for bettas to stretch out their fins to the fullest. I can see them being happy in a nice 2.5 or 5 gallon, though.

You make the argument that they have these huge rice paddies and whatnot to swim in. Well, true, but sorry to tell you... MOST fish are used to HUGE spaces to swim in. Even if you give them the luxury of "huge" tanks, that's STILL not comparable to what they had in the wild. That must seem like a tiny apartment to them.

I mean, really, I could take a fish out of the lake by our lakehouse and give him a "luxurious" 150 gallon tank... but our lake covers nearly 1000 acres. Isn't that the same sort of scenario?

I *am* still plotting how to fit bigger tanks into the betta apartment complex. The space COULD hold more, but why do bigger tanks have to be so bloody tall? *ponders custom tanks and winces at the cost*

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~

20+ years, that would be me. I am 37 and bought my first betta when I was 15.

Maybe it depends on where you're from and availability but yes they were called bettas then, they were sold in cups, and sold as pet fish.


~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Drinkmonkey I have a unknown res too

Anyway Alpha, my dad has been taken care of bettas since he was 16 in Vietnam. Let's see he is currently 52...hmmm 36 years of experience with bettas. So whoever said they had bettas for 20 years on and off is quite possible.

I just want to say somethings first:

1) It's insulting and pointless to call Alpha a troll: even if he brings up a question, answers it himself, and is reluctant to listen to what "you guys" have to say. He posted a topic in a forum for discussion. Isn't that the point of a forum? He is discussing an issue which is relevant and he feels is significant. If you don't want to discuss it, or if you are annoyed at the "trolling" (which I don't think it is) then you are more than welcome NOT to post a reply, and you are certainly welcome not to read further.

And if "you guys" doesn't apply to you (if you think that keeping bettas in a small tank is not okay), then why would you take offense to the use of "you guys"? Obviously, it doesn't apply to you. Furthermore, I agree that the majority of people consider 2gallons fine for a betta. I consider 2 gallons fine for a betta. The reason I think 2gallons is fine for a betta is because I have seen them thrive. They do well - are active, eat healthily, are personable, and seem generally lively. Which is the reason I think 2gallons is fine for a betta and not a gourami - simply because bettas can thrive in 2gallons; while a gourami most likely cannot.

2) Saving the betta by buying it - Well, I see it in a similar way - at least that is one more betta that can have a better home than it would in the LFS. It's true that this would be "supporting the trade". But the fundamental point is there you are now caring for one betta and can hopefully provide for it to help it thrive. Of course, there are farms for many times of animals - bettas, puppies, danios, goldfish. I don't see how the demand is going to stop, so the farming will continue with or without your refusal to buy a betta. But by buying one betta, you can provide for it a better home than the LFS.

3) I agree that the current bettas you find in the stores are too many generations away from their humble origin in the rice paddies. Similarly, though my ancestors came from a "jungle", I live in a town now - in a completely different environment from my ancestors. If you put me back into the "jungle" I will probably not survive. Consequently, I think that trying to determine the water depth of rice paddies, or if bettas leave their territories in rice paddies, or if bettas come in contact with others in rice paddies, or the length of dry spells in rice paddies - well, it's all a little pointless, and can be argued many times over.

4) I also think bettas are intelligent. They seem very personable to me, and have a distinct personality. There have been times when my bettas will act stubborn and refuse to eat. Or act friendly and put on a show for me. Contrastingly, goldfish just swim around and wander about kind of aimlessly. Goldfish will certainly learn to recognize you as well as feeding time. But isn't it cute when a betta will leave the confines of his plant to come look squarely at you? I consider bettas to be quite intelligent compared to many other fish. Are they as intelligent as an Oscar? No, I wouldn't say that. But I would certainly say they are more intelligent than goldfish. Bettas have a great personality, imho.

I didn't base my concept of intelligence on environmental stimulation because I don't think that shows a good concept of intelligence. Bettas will do fine in a simple environment. Some other fish, cichlids certainly, need more stimulation. But I don't equate stimulation with intelligence. It's a concept that holds with mammals (because mammals are warm blooded and very active, thus = intelligence = the ability to interact and react to stimulation). However, I wouldn't apply it to fish. So I base my concept of intelligence on a fish' capacity for "personality". Some guppies are fools compared to bettas. Lol.

Well, that is a lot. I am done.

I see your point, tetra fan, but I would think that there is not so little territory that the fish would confine itself to that small of a size of territory. I don't think a gallon is bad necessarily, even so.. I keep mine in a 2 ish gallon, like I said, but I've used a gallon tank before. It's the betta spheres with poor lighting ( led moonlight thingie or whatever.. fish can hardly see his own food) that have no top and only hold about 4 cups of water, and the betta barraks that people use as permanent housing, and other insanely confined places that people have decided was acceptable just because they were sold for bettas with a picture of a betta on it. Those are the things I have a problem with.. not a gallon container that gets fresh water on a regular basis. I provided the picture of a betta's natural habitat to dispell the " Well, that tiny cup is just like their natural habitat... they like it." myth I keep hearing and seeing. Our tank bred bettas have never been in a rice patty, but some of their health requirements are obviously going to be the same. I don't think you can breed a fish to be " happy" in three cups of water.

Ok, well, lets see, why do most find this acceptable?

Because they are told it is the way things are i would guess.

but lets look at something that a lot of you seem to have missed. (tho some of you have touched on)

the betta of today is far far removed from what it was when it was swimming around in rice paddies.
The constant human interferance has produced a fish that couldn't survive in the wild if it tried! (exactly how far do you think a bright yellow HM male would get? the birds would have it within minutes. and the fins would prevent it from swimming fast enough to escape)

fancy bettas (what most people keep) can only use pectoral fins to motor around. the other fins are somewhat useless. Sure they can display with them, but they do very little for swimming.

Now, gouramis, for the most part, arent nearly as horribly inbred and messed with as the fancy betta, so they are quite able to act more naturally when it comes to in-tank behaviour.

Gouramis from the pet store are almost always going to be better swimmers than bettas.

I do keep a few wild bettas (probably a few generations from the paddy as well, but definately less inbred and displaying natural finnage) and these fish could survive quite well in a larger tank physically i think. they are good swimmers, quite territorial and can get to the food. They still do not like filter currents tho... i assume because they are unused to them.

Now, another angle. Bettas (sad to say) have almost always been jarred at an early age for sale. This means that they have had very little social interaction as a young fish. It also means that the "home" that they grew up in is very small. These fish very rarely get to see the inside of a 4' community tank before they are sold.

so what does this mean?
Lets go with an analogy. you have lived in a small laundry your entire life. you can see through your walls into other laundries but you cannot communicate with the inhabitants. All of a sudden your laundry is upended into a bustling cocktail party.
Or for arguements sake, an empty football field.

if the fish hasnt been prepared for this, it is not going to handle it well. Some fish never get used to it, others will put on a brave face and learn about the new environment.

In most cases, gouramis are far better socialised as young fish.

A lot of people bypass this part of the fish.
What? a fish has an emotional state i should be concerned about?? YES. And why wouldn't it? Almost all betta owners know that fish have different personalities, different actions, different responses to stress and stimuli, so the easiest way for you to comprehend this as a layman behaviouralist is to say "well, i think this fish is *feeling* this or that"

People do the same things to dogs. you get an abused dog, you don't treat it the same way as you treat a well socialised puppy from a breeder do you? Well, why do fish require any less thought?

A car trip and water change is stressful enough, but add a new environment and tankmates to this mix and you are either going to have an angry fish or a petrified one.

Now, i know some well adjusted abused dogs, and i know some that never ever recovered. I also know some well socialised puppies that well, hmm, yes... there are a lot of things that go towards making up a personality, and unfortunately/fortunately humans arent in control of them all.
Apply the same thinking to bettas.


Just pointing out that there is far more to consider when thinking about this topic that "bettas need rice paddies too"

[span class="edited"][Edited by Callatya 2004-06-16 23:34][/span]

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

u have an interesting point there jake...er pointS. the picture does prove they live in a larger area...but do they swim into other bettas territories? no not likely. therefore they stay around the same place until the dry season. then they move to a new territory but they will only stay in there territory. they have fresh water but are used to living in a confined space. weekly or every other day water changes will help the betta feel right at home. with fresh water and a small space it is very roghly mimicking there natural hibitat. VERY roughly. but enough to make them feel at home they get fresh water every day in the wild...get fresh water every other day or so in a 1 gallon tank. have a small place to live in, in the wild. a small place to live in the tank. see my point?(i hope SOMEONE does)

Just to give my 2 cents... the natural habitat of the betta is not a puddle. They developed this interesting way of breathing as a way to survive in the dry season... to move from one small body of water to another if sections of the greater body of water they are in dry out. Therfore, a cup is not " like it's natural habitat".

It is not feasible if you are a breeder to have a 5 gal tank for each betta. You may have 500 bettas at a time or more. Let's be realistic. If you only have a couple bettas, maybe dividing a ten gallon wouldn't hurt though. I have my male betta in a 2.5 gallon, with a box filter. The tank has a light as well, but no heat. The room is a constant 75 F. My betta was about 1 1/2 years old when I got him and I've had him for one year. Their life span is 2 to 4 years or so, so apparently I'm doing something right. I would never put myself in a situation requiring me to put a betta in anything less than a gallon, as I believe this is the minimum requirement for them. Any male betta I've tried to keep in a community setting has done horribly bad. Any female betta I have kept in a community setting has thrived.

Lastly, I would say that I would treat the betta no differently as far as basic requirements it needs than I would any other fish. If most fish need one gallon per inch, I would use the same rule for bettas. They need constant water parameters, clean water, etc just like any other fish. Having a 5 gallon tank per betta is ridiculous, but on the other side of that, so is a cup or a quart sized bowl.

For your viewing pleasure, I have a picture of some actual betta habitat in Thailand.[/font]

it was an exaduration alpha, beta's aren't a high-functioning animal though, if they were being in 1 or 2 gallons of water all their would likely stress them out. In fact i think most fish would die of boredom in a lot of tanks if they were higher functioning. If you realy feel like going through the whole "define inteligence" and "define happyness" thing i'de say its irrelivent, beta's don't stress in a couple gallons and thats a reasonable enough indicator to me.

"We may not be able to save all the bettas in the world, but we can make a difference for one. Two dead bettas is worse than one dead betta."

the difference between that story and the betta, by throwing the starfish back, she isn't supporting the act of starfish beaching themselfs.

by buying a betta, all you doing is paying someone for mistreatment of the animal, and litterly funding the continuation of these acts. I've even heard that some stores use this as a sales tactic, don't know if its true but im sure it would work.

and no one here is saying that a betta can't live in a bowl, im openly admit they will survive in a small tank, but just because a animal will survive in a small tank does that make it right to keep one in one.

O and plasmax000, congrats, you are the first person in quite a long time to point out any differnce between the two that would make any difference.

thou i still have yet to see anything that actually supports the idea that its a good to keep a betta in such a small tank, besudes the fact that they can survive.

and please don't think i refuse to be wrong, heck if i could find any exidence that supported the small tank thing, i would be going to buy myself a few more betta this instant.

if this hasnt been said, bettas may live in the large rice patties but also many other bettas do too. the bettas dont wander far from there territory. there are many different bettas living in the rice patties. they rarely wander from there territory there whole life. besides the wet season there is no water movement in the rice patties so it is the same as living in the same water until the wet season comes(in a pet bettas case a water change). all im trying to say is that in the wild they live in one space in the whole rice patties. the water doesnt move so it is the equivelent to living in a bowl.

I know this is a long post, but please read all the way through it and don't just dismiss it as "crap."

dwarf gourami's have the same ability to breath air as betta's, both are about the same size(about a inch differnece), both are equally delicate, and relativley same water conditions. so why do you guys think its okay for betta's to live in bowls, while you think gourami's need tank, this is not ment to critize you guys, its a serious question.

My bad, I didn't realize you wanted a scientific, anatomical answer. You might want to avoid "why do you think blah blah blah" because what people think is their opinion, which is probably why you're getting all the opinionated stuff about money and "saving bettas." Next time try "Why can bettas be kept in bowls and gouramis need a tank?" More direct usually gets you more facts. Sorry if this comes across as mean, I intended it to be helpful

Aaannyways, let's look at it this way: can you tell the difference between a dwarf gourami and a betta just by looking at it? Gourami's have much taller (dorsal to anal fin) bodies and much shorter fins, whereas some bettas are almost completely fins and have a tiny body in comparison. So, even though they both have a labyrinth organ, they are both drastically different fish. Using the puppy analogy, both rottweilers and dobermans are big with black and brown fur, but rottweilers have a much more solid build and much bigger jaws and thus have some different health issues.

So, while gouramis and bettas may belong to the same family, so they have the same basic build, but even so their bodies vary drastically. This means that they probably have different requirements to maintain their health. One possible argument is that bettas have long, delicate fins that often are not stiff enough to propel the fish very far. So a betta gets much more exercise when it tries to swim the same distance compared to a gourami. It's like having a runner with shorter legs: the shorter his legs are the more steps he has to take to run the same distance.

Alright, you say, it's a possible argument but only a theoretical one. Well, that's when you look at the track record. Many people have successfully kept bettas happy in tanks under 5 gallons. Now we're not saying cram them into teensy weensy petco cups , but they have had a healthier record in small tanks than most other fish. Thus, we can say they probably do better in smaller tanks than other fish. In comparison, we do not hear many success stories about gouramis being kept in smaller tanks. What this hints to us is that gouramis probably do not do well in these smaller tanks.

So why can bettas be kept in bowls and gouramis need tanks? We don't know the specific answers, but we know that a majority of bettas do better than gouramis in small tanks because of all the owners that have successfully kept them that way. Numbers don't lie. It's like asking "why is there gravity?" We can't give you a specific, factual answer, but we know that 99.9% of the time that what goes up must come down.

the whole idea that by buying a betta your saving it, is crap, for every betta they buy thery will just put another one easily into its place, are you going to go save that one too, and then its replacement, and so on and so on.

There's an old story that goes something like this:

A man was walking down the beach when he came upon a little girl. This little girl was throwing starfish back into the ocean that had been beached by the low tide. Now hundreds of starfish littering the shore, and the girl had to throw them in one at a time with her hands. The man came up to her and said "Are you crazy!? You'll never get all these starfish back into the water!" The girl looked discouraged and began to walk away, like she'd given up. Suddenly her face lit up, she grabbed the nearest starfish and hurled it as far as she could. She beamed back at the man "I made a difference for that one!"

The man was so impressed by the little girl that he joined in, each time making only a small difference for only one starfish. With time, others joined in, and before they knew it, all the starfish were back safe and sound in the sea.

We may not be able to save all the bettas in the world, but we can make a difference for one. Two dead bettas is worse than one dead betta.

[span class="edited"][Edited by 2004-06-16 19:29][/span]

you can't compare other species intellegence to humans, and frankly tell me one of species who can do a cross word. heck even the our closest related relative, the chimp can't read. about as far as they have gotten is sign language and learning to asciate symbols with words, and items.

and by saying you guys, i meant the magority of you, as most of you do believe 2g is enough for a betta.

and about fish from the wild, having so much room, and any tank being too small, in most cases this is correct. but its not a good reason to make there room even smaller.

Beta's aren't very inteligent, i don't care if a few hundred people disagree. Yes, they may be smart for a fish, but no they will not be finnishing the newyork times crossword puzzle for me. They won't be learning how to lock doors any time soon either- something dogs can learn how to do. I'm also not saying that its some great act saving a beta, all i'm saying is that its better than the life it would have had otherwise, and that the fish is not living life so stressed out that it affects their health. I was also not saying that because they are stupid they should be abused, I'm saying they don't need a complex, stimulating environment for them to contemplate the meaning of life from. Personaly i'de believe you had no intent upon creating an argument if it weren't for this little sentance, "so why do you guys think its okay for betta's to live in bowls, while you think gourami's need tank, this is not ment to critize you guys, its a serious question." First you assumed we're all ok with the beta bowl idea, personaly I've got my limmits with cramping any fish. After that you said you didn't want to criticize us based on the assumption that "we" are for the idea of the beta cubes, but proceeded to try to shoot down every argument given with your own criticizm, even though all you asked for was the reason why people do what they do, NOT what the proper and logical justification was. From there you used the irrelivant argument: "the idea the betta's aren't intellegent, well right i got a few hundred ppl that will say otherwise" Well it so happens that a few hundred people can easily be wrong, the number of opinions does not influence the odds of being right, and the odds of being right are still irrelivent because they are only a best-guess at the truth based on calculating the known variables.

I have 3 bettas. I used to keep one of my boys in my community tank and he got along well with the other fish but he spent most of his time in one corner in all the plants or in the small cave resting. He lived in there for 10 months. I've since moved him into a private 1 gallon complete with his own silk plants to rest in and he has shown me his contentment by building huge bubblenests every week -which he never did in the community tank. I moved him from that tank after witnessing how well my other two were doing in their 1 and 2 gallon tanks.

Fish thrive when thier needs are met. A fish will not feel sorry for itself that it only has one gallon to move in. They don't have that kind of intellegence. As long as you provide a stress-free, clean environment and cater to the dietary and water quality needs of your particular fish, it will be content and thrive.

ya, people came from outside too. They had lots of room before, now many are taken as industry pets and kept in cubicles and apartments for the greater part of their life. Would anyone like a picture of our natural habitat? Anyhow, for the past few posts I get the sense everything is just being re-stated, personaly I think its laughable that people are criticized for keeping betas in a tank 5 gallons and under, living a life where they aren't getting sick because of stress while their owner goes out for sushi. And when i say betas aren't that smart, i mean they don't need complex mental stimulation to be satisfied with life. Please compare a beta to this chart and tell me how many of these needs a beta can comprehend, and how much they require them to be fufilled. Compare a dog to this chart. (Yes, i realize this is a dumbed down version of the chart, i'm working fast on this post) Its not a mater of inteligence relative to fish, its inteligence relative to that of an animal which requires complex and varied environments to survive without any detriment to their health.

thou i still have yet to see anything that actually supports the idea that its a good to keep a betta in such a small tank, besudes the fact that they can survive.

If you're looking for a reason that bettas will specifically be happier in a less water with everything else aside you're not going to get it. It doesn't exist.

It's like asking if people will enjoy open fields or tight, closed-in cities more. With nurturing and growing-up environment aside, there's no way to tell if someone's more of a country boy or a city boy except by experience. It's probably part of what genetics builds in to them.

That's where the numbers come in that I mentioned earlier. We know that alot of bettas can be happy in smaller tanks.(note how I said happy, not that he'll survive) So in most cases it's probably ok to keep them in 1-gallon or 2-gallon tanks. This doesn't deny that some bettas may be happier in a larger tank, BUT is cruelty keeping someone from the absolute best or keeping someone from being happy?

If you see it as cruel to keep a betta happy by keeping it in less than the absolute best because it's not possible for me to give him that, it's like opening pandora's box. I could say my teachers are cruel because even though they were great teachers they did not give me their full attention and teach me one-on-one all year long. A teenage driver could say his parents are cruel because they bought a used Toyota Camry for him to drive rather than a new Lamborghini Murcieglo. I could say you are cruel because even though you're responding to me and you're being polite, you're not giving me your utmost undivided attention, explaining your answers down to the absolute, most basic truths of life in 10-page long essays, and responding the instant that I post. (j/k You're doing a great job)

So, keeping bettas in small tanks and bowls is not cruel unless it is clear that they are unhappy or stressed. This is usually not often because (once again) a majority of bettas are happy in 1-gallon or 2-gallon tanks. A majority of gouramis would not be happy and would probably be stressed in this situation. Since you are making the gourami unhappy and sick, it is cruel to keep a gourami in a smaller tank most of the time.

[EDIT] This doesn't mean that you can buy a 1-gallon bowl and let the fish just sit there in his own poop for a month. It means that if the owner is responsible and caring enough, and he maintains the bowl as needed, a betta can be happy in a smaller tank than most other fish.[/EDIT]

[span class="edited"][Edited by 2004-06-17 12:54][/span]

okay but explain this, how do you know the betta is happy and stress free if all he's ever been in was a 1-2 gallon bowl, so you don't know how it would act any other way. there isn't much room in anything under 5g's to tell how he's acting, just the slightest movement in a bowl makes it appear active, while that same movement in a tank, probably wouldn't be noticed.

and color isn't a good way to judge(atleast not in males), males will always try to show their best colors, which is why you rarley see the males turn white like you do females. it's part of their maiting instinct they will try to keep color bright at all times.

and thank you for being so polite in this, im not trying to nesscarly prove any one side, just to prove a side.

okay but explain this, how do you know the betta is happy and stress free if all he's ever been in was a 1-2 gallon bowl, so you don't know how it would act any other way. there isn't much room in anything under 5g's to tell how he's acting, just the slightest movement in a bowl makes it appear active, while that same movement in a tank, probably wouldn't be noticed.

Well, how do you know the betta is happy and stress free in a huge tank? You could just as easily say all that active swimming in a large tank is hyperactivity because the fish is stressed and anxious. We can never be absolutely certain of how the fish feels until somebody invents a betta translator. Of course, then they'll all probably demand filet mignon for breakfast :%)

Until that happens, we do what we always do. If he's swimming around the bowl, gobbling up his food, looking healthy, doing little "tricks", and not trying to kill himself by jumping out of the tank, then chances are he's a happy little guy. Once again, this is not one of those things that can be proven by an exact science.

I've noticed that the majority of you keep having this immpression that betta are fighting against the current and just moving non stop in a tank, like their just bokking around the tank.

we'll for those of you who have tried bettas in a tank, i don't know how high you have had you current turned up, but my guys move around leisurly and as they please, no real effort into it, i mean just by looking at them you can tell they aren't struggling.

well there really is no way to tell if a betta is happy. if we put him back in his natural habitat(most of us cant even get there) then he will just be eaten up. the truth is we will never know if a betta is happier in a larger tank or a 1 gallon bowl. they will act almost the same in either setting. colorful, active, and a big appetite. i think the only way to tell if they are happy is put them back in there natural habitat which none of us can do

so i guess what im hearing, is theres no solid proof to either. well okay, but i think im going to keep my 10g's they are just easier to take care of anyways, plus i don't have to stress the betta by moving him when i need to do a water change.

How about we all just say that a beta alive, healthy and stress-free is a better existance than the alternative for most captive beta's? This isn't a plea to save the betas, all I'm saying is that the life provided is better than the alternative, even if that life is only occuring in 5 gallons of water. As i see it, thats reason enough not to make a big deal of things. I mean given the choice would you work in a cubicle with a bunch of screaming kids and incompitant employees, or just have one decent boss and an executive sized office with a door, window, and plant in the corner? Besides, if a beta gets 5 gallons than what in the heck kind of cruel things are we doing to the fish in our community tanks?

10 gallons would be good, just don't throw 2 males in the same tank unless you feel like having one dead beta and another torn to crap.

I have to agree that because bettas will be content, will survive, and will prosper in 2gallon and 5gallon tanks - that makes it okay to keep a betta in something so small.

again, i'm just restating what's already been stated. like people, some may prefer to live in large open fields. but a 1,600 sq. foot home is fine for a small family to live in. i'm certain people would much rather live in a 3,000 sq. foot home, but can we survive and thrive in something smaller? yes we can.

on the other hand, can a gourami thrive in 2gallons? probably not.

consequently, disregarding where the betta would be happiest (just like we can't all get a ferrari or live in a big house), i think it's safe to say a betta will do fine in 2-5gallons. why? because many people have had success with it like that.

now, I have 2 friends that work for PetSmart. The bettas come in little packages with a little more than a shotglass of water. And they are shipped like that! So the cup they live in, at the LFS, is roomy by comparison. And the 2gallons (or 5g) that we provide them with is also very roomy by comparison.

I don't think you can argue that a betta needs a large 20g tank to thrive. Simply because many people can counter that they've successfully (meaning thriving and not just survival) kept bettas in smaller tanks.

just another point...bettas natural habitat is larger than what we keep them in but also all the other fish we keep are in something smaller than what they live in. the fish will prosper in something smaller than there natural habitat. that is why we can keep fish in aquariums because they can live in something smaller than there natural habitat. my point is that we keep every fish we own in something smaller than there natural habitat, no matter how large of an aquarium we get...unless its like those huge aquariums at national aquariums and zoos but i doubt any one person has enough money to start one...except Bill Gates

but as far a show betta's have never seen any better

If that was directed at me, that wasn't what i meant.
Show bettas are some of the best kept fish around, even if they are mass produced.

The point i was trying to make was that the fancy betta of today is so incredibly far removed from the wild betta in the paddy that you cannot really expect the same from both fish.

For a start, the physical makeup is often vastly different.

For simplicity's sake, my point is that in essence you are dealing with 2 different fish which, although very similar, have taken 2 completely different paths to get to where they are today.


As an aside, i would just like to congratulate ALL OF YOU for being able to have a wonderful debate without getting too emotional about it Its wonderful to see, reminds me of what FP was years ago *wipes away tear*
WELL DONE!

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

yeah wild betta's are different, well actually only in body, in personallity they are very alike, it's cool to see how 2 fish that look so different are so alike.

but to be honest, i don't beleive that no matter how badly a animal was kept previously, should justify how a animal is kept , wether good or bad, witht he exception of animals that has disabilitys or some other damage from the previous situation.

if i did beleive that, i could go buy one of those betta's that are in like a shot glass full of water and keep it in my coffee mug, because it justifys it because it has more water, i mean we all know that would be wrong, but its the same idea. not saying that your ideas are wrong or right, but just saying i don't think previous conditions are a good reason to treat any animal any way.

[span class="edited"][Edited by alpha 2004-06-20 16:05][/span]

you seem to be missing part of the point.

you appear to be bypassing the mental disability caused by prior treatment. Not even disability, but there is certainly a difference.

you do have to take into account what this individual fish knows as "normal" and what to do from there.

I'm certainly not saying that you cannot put a teacup betta into a 10, i'm jiust saying that you should be thoughtful about how you go about it.

you are probably better stepping up gradually, giving the fish time to adjust.


I do see your point, i really do, but in a way, its ... oh geez, i cant think of the right word.

You appear to be projecting human wants and desires onto the fish. Thats fine, but occasionally you have to pull yourself into check and reassess in a non-emotional manner, from a farm-bred fish point of view.

I can see quite well that you are able to debate and take in a variety of ideas, you might have already done this, i dont know.


I know you would rather have all bettas in 10 gallon tanks. You know what, i'd bet that most of us would go for something similar. Money is a problem, space is a problem, and a lot of us who 'rescue' fish would know that some fish fret like mad in large tanks.

I suppose at some point it becomes an ethical issue. An individual decision.

If you can afford the space and cash to keep 10 gallon tanks with a betta in them, then i congratulate you. (although i hope that the betta was given the opporunity to say 'no' if it was uncomfortable)

If you have 30+ 2 gallon tanks with clean water and healthy well adjusted bettas, you know hat, i congratulate you too.





For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

I agree with Callatya. If you go buy a betta, take it out of that horrible hex, and whack it in a 55 gallon community tank, it isn't going to accept the change very well.

As long as the fish and its owner are happy, leave it like that. After all, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!



[span class="edited"][Edited by rubber_ducky_2904 2004-06-28 03:02][/span]

[span class="edited"][Edited by rubber_ducky_2904 2004-06-28 03:03][/span]

firstly im ashamed you ppl are still using the 10inch per gallon rule, its undoublty the worst rule ever thought of.

but anyways, its not a waste of money its a improvement of a animals life. and how says they have to be the only fish in the tank, they aren't the only fish in their eco system.

also i have further suport of my side of the story,

both are qoutes

Gaddy Bergmann of the Department of Biology at the University of South Florida states, "Even small fish require at least 10 gallons for good water quality and normal activity. Even fish that can survive in puddles require adequate nourishment and water quality. In nature, this is provided by the environment. However, in a captive scenario, water quality and nutrition are more likely to be inadequate, particularly if the consumer buying the product is uninformed." He goes on to say that "small volumes of water are less stable than larger ones and may physiologically challenge their occupants" and that "consumers who buy AquaBabies may be misled into thinking that the setup requires little or no maintenance, when in reality it does require maintenance, as do all aquaria."

and the second

Harro Hieronimus, chair of the German Livebearer Society and the International Rainbowfish Association, was asked to create for the German Ministry of Agriculture a set of minimum requirements for the humane care of fish. His expert opinion has been translated into law in Germany. He maintains that fish must have a minimum volume of 13 gallons of water in an aquarium approximately 24 inches by 12 inches by 12 inches in size. Hieronimus states, "Keeping fish permanently in smaller tanks is cruelty against animals and [in Germany] may be prosecuted by law."

Just to give my 2 cents... the natural habitat of the betta is not a puddle. They developed this interesting way of breathing as a way to survive in the dry season... to move from one small body of water to another if sections of the greater body of water they are in dry out. Therfore, a cup is not " like it's natural habitat".

It is not feasible if you are a breeder to have a 5 gal tank for each betta. You may have 500 bettas at a time or more. Let's be realistic. If you only have a couple bettas, maybe dividing a ten gallon wouldn't hurt though. I have my male betta in a 2.5 gallon, with a box filter. The tank has a light as well, but no heat. The room is a constant 75 F. My betta was about 1 1/2 years old when I got him and I've had him for one year. Their life span is 2 to 4 years or so, so apparently I'm doing something right. I would never put myself in a situation requiring me to put a betta in anything less than a gallon, as I believe this is the minimum requirement for them. Any male betta I've tried to keep in a community setting has done horribly bad. Any female betta I have kept in a community setting has thrived.

Lastly, I would say that I would treat the betta no differently as far as basic requirements it needs than I would any other fish. If most fish need one gallon per inch, I would use the same rule for bettas. They need constant water parameters, clean water, etc just like any other fish. Having a 5 gallon tank per betta is ridiculous, but on the other side of that, so is a cup or a quart sized bowl.

For your viewing pleasure, I have a picture of some actual betta habitat in Thailand.[/font]

Rice paddies really don't matter. Most commercially bred bettas have been several generations from a rice paddy and would not survive in the wild.

___________________________________________

If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished.

I have 3 bettas. I used to keep one of my boys in my community tank and he got along well with the other fish but he spent most of his time in one corner in all the plants or in the small cave resting. He lived in there for 10 months. I've since moved him into a private 1 gallon complete with his own silk plants to rest in and he has shown me his contentment by building huge bubblenests every week -which he never did in the community tank. I moved him from that tank after witnessing how well my other two were doing in their 1 and 2 gallon tanks.

Fish thrive when thier needs are met. A fish will not feel sorry for itself that it only has one gallon to move in. They don't have that kind of intellegence. As long as you provide a stress-free, clean environment and cater to the dietary and water quality needs of your particular fish, it will be content and thrive.

Beta's aren't very inteligent, i don't care if a few hundred people disagree. Yes, they may be smart for a fish, but no they will not be finnishing the newyork times crossword puzzle for me. They won't be learning how to lock doors any time soon either- something dogs can learn how to do. I'm also not saying that its some great act saving a beta, all i'm saying is that its better than the life it would have had otherwise, and that the fish is not living life so stressed out that it affects their health. I was also not saying that because they are stupid they should be abused, I'm saying they don't need a complex, stimulating environment for them to contemplate the meaning of life from. Personaly i'de believe you had no intent upon creating an argument if it weren't for this little sentance, "so why do you guys think its okay for betta's to live in bowls, while you think gourami's need tank, this is not ment to critize you guys, its a serious question." First you assumed we're all ok with the beta bowl idea, personaly I've got my limmits with cramping any fish. After that you said you didn't want to criticize us based on the assumption that "we" are for the idea of the beta cubes, but proceeded to try to shoot down every argument given with your own criticizm, even though all you asked for was the reason why people do what they do, NOT what the proper and logical justification was. From there you used the irrelivant argument: "the idea the betta's aren't intellegent, well right i got a few hundred ppl that will say otherwise" Well it so happens that a few hundred people can easily be wrong, the number of opinions does not influence the odds of being right, and the odds of being right are still irrelivent because they are only a best-guess at the truth based on calculating the known variables.

you can't compare other species intellegence to humans, and frankly tell me one of species who can do a cross word. heck even the our closest related relative, the chimp can't read. about as far as they have gotten is sign language and learning to asciate symbols with words, and items.

and by saying you guys, i meant the magority of you, as most of you do believe 2g is enough for a betta.

and about fish from the wild, having so much room, and any tank being too small, in most cases this is correct. but its not a good reason to make there room even smaller.

I know this is a long post, but please read all the way through it and don't just dismiss it as "crap."

dwarf gourami's have the same ability to breath air as betta's, both are about the same size(about a inch differnece), both are equally delicate, and relativley same water conditions. so why do you guys think its okay for betta's to live in bowls, while you think gourami's need tank, this is not ment to critize you guys, its a serious question.

My bad, I didn't realize you wanted a scientific, anatomical answer. You might want to avoid "why do you think blah blah blah" because what people think is their opinion, which is probably why you're getting all the opinionated stuff about money and "saving bettas." Next time try "Why can bettas be kept in bowls and gouramis need a tank?" More direct usually gets you more facts. Sorry if this comes across as mean, I intended it to be helpful

Aaannyways, let's look at it this way: can you tell the difference between a dwarf gourami and a betta just by looking at it? Gourami's have much taller (dorsal to anal fin) bodies and much shorter fins, whereas some bettas are almost completely fins and have a tiny body in comparison. So, even though they both have a labyrinth organ, they are both drastically different fish. Using the puppy analogy, both rottweilers and dobermans are big with black and brown fur, but rottweilers have a much more solid build and much bigger jaws and thus have some different health issues.

So, while gouramis and bettas may belong to the same family, so they have the same basic build, but even so their bodies vary drastically. This means that they probably have different requirements to maintain their health. One possible argument is that bettas have long, delicate fins that often are not stiff enough to propel the fish very far. So a betta gets much more exercise when it tries to swim the same distance compared to a gourami. It's like having a runner with shorter legs: the shorter his legs are the more steps he has to take to run the same distance.

Alright, you say, it's a possible argument but only a theoretical one. Well, that's when you look at the track record. Many people have successfully kept bettas happy in tanks under 5 gallons. Now we're not saying cram them into teensy weensy petco cups , but they have had a healthier record in small tanks than most other fish. Thus, we can say they probably do better in smaller tanks than other fish. In comparison, we do not hear many success stories about gouramis being kept in smaller tanks. What this hints to us is that gouramis probably do not do well in these smaller tanks.

So why can bettas be kept in bowls and gouramis need tanks? We don't know the specific answers, but we know that a majority of bettas do better than gouramis in small tanks because of all the owners that have successfully kept them that way. Numbers don't lie. It's like asking "why is there gravity?" We can't give you a specific, factual answer, but we know that 99.9% of the time that what goes up must come down.

the whole idea that by buying a betta your saving it, is crap, for every betta they buy thery will just put another one easily into its place, are you going to go save that one too, and then its replacement, and so on and so on.

There's an old story that goes something like this:

A man was walking down the beach when he came upon a little girl. This little girl was throwing starfish back into the ocean that had been beached by the low tide. Now hundreds of starfish littering the shore, and the girl had to throw them in one at a time with her hands. The man came up to her and said "Are you crazy!? You'll never get all these starfish back into the water!" The girl looked discouraged and began to walk away, like she'd given up. Suddenly her face lit up, she grabbed the nearest starfish and hurled it as far as she could. She beamed back at the man "I made a difference for that one!"

The man was so impressed by the little girl that he joined in, each time making only a small difference for only one starfish. With time, others joined in, and before they knew it, all the starfish were back safe and sound in the sea.

We may not be able to save all the bettas in the world, but we can make a difference for one. Two dead bettas is worse than one dead betta.

[span class="edited"][Edited by 2004-06-16 19:29][/span]

if this hasnt been said, bettas may live in the large rice patties but also many other bettas do too. the bettas dont wander far from there territory. there are many different bettas living in the rice patties. they rarely wander from there territory there whole life. besides the wet season there is no water movement in the rice patties so it is the same as living in the same water until the wet season comes(in a pet bettas case a water change). all im trying to say is that in the wild they live in one space in the whole rice patties. the water doesnt move so it is the equivelent to living in a bowl.

"We may not be able to save all the bettas in the world, but we can make a difference for one. Two dead bettas is worse than one dead betta."

the difference between that story and the betta, by throwing the starfish back, she isn't supporting the act of starfish beaching themselfs.

by buying a betta, all you doing is paying someone for mistreatment of the animal, and litterly funding the continuation of these acts. I've even heard that some stores use this as a sales tactic, don't know if its true but im sure it would work.

and no one here is saying that a betta can't live in a bowl, im openly admit they will survive in a small tank, but just because a animal will survive in a small tank does that make it right to keep one in one.

O and plasmax000, congrats, you are the first person in quite a long time to point out any differnce between the two that would make any difference.

thou i still have yet to see anything that actually supports the idea that its a good to keep a betta in such a small tank, besudes the fact that they can survive.

and please don't think i refuse to be wrong, heck if i could find any exidence that supported the small tank thing, i would be going to buy myself a few more betta this instant.

it was an exaduration alpha, beta's aren't a high-functioning animal though, if they were being in 1 or 2 gallons of water all their would likely stress them out. In fact i think most fish would die of boredom in a lot of tanks if they were higher functioning. If you realy feel like going through the whole "define inteligence" and "define happyness" thing i'de say its irrelivent, beta's don't stress in a couple gallons and thats a reasonable enough indicator to me.

so does the way they have previously treated make it right to just give them a extra gallon and make it right

Well, yes, actually, it does. Bettas don't thrive in a cup but bettas will thrive in a gallon of water if that water is clean and the betta is fed. People like to give animals human qualities and feelings but really the intellegence of a fish is not the same. Personality is really temperment and happiness is really contentment in that all the fish's needs are met. It's been proven time and time again that a betta will live a full life with beautiful finnage showing no signs of discontent or stress in a one gallon container. I think that's proof enough. I agree that a betta can live a good life in a large tank with other tankmates but that doesn't make it wrong to have one in a small tank. My bettas are not wishing they were in a rice paddie. They are in a stress-free environment where all their needs are met.

Of course a puppy mill cage is too small for a puppy, just as a cup is too small for a betta. But a small puppy can live in an apartment and a large dog can live in a house, same as betta can live in a 1G while an Oscar can live in a 120G.

u have an interesting point there jake...er pointS. the picture does prove they live in a larger area...but do they swim into other bettas territories? no not likely. therefore they stay around the same place until the dry season. then they move to a new territory but they will only stay in there territory. they have fresh water but are used to living in a confined space. weekly or every other day water changes will help the betta feel right at home. with fresh water and a small space it is very roghly mimicking there natural hibitat. VERY roughly. but enough to make them feel at home they get fresh water every day in the wild...get fresh water every other day or so in a 1 gallon tank. have a small place to live in, in the wild. a small place to live in the tank. see my point?(i hope SOMEONE does)

Ok, well, lets see, why do most find this acceptable?

Because they are told it is the way things are i would guess.

but lets look at something that a lot of you seem to have missed. (tho some of you have touched on)

the betta of today is far far removed from what it was when it was swimming around in rice paddies.
The constant human interferance has produced a fish that couldn't survive in the wild if it tried! (exactly how far do you think a bright yellow HM male would get? the birds would have it within minutes. and the fins would prevent it from swimming fast enough to escape)

fancy bettas (what most people keep) can only use pectoral fins to motor around. the other fins are somewhat useless. Sure they can display with them, but they do very little for swimming.

Now, gouramis, for the most part, arent nearly as horribly inbred and messed with as the fancy betta, so they are quite able to act more naturally when it comes to in-tank behaviour.

Gouramis from the pet store are almost always going to be better swimmers than bettas.

I do keep a few wild bettas (probably a few generations from the paddy as well, but definately less inbred and displaying natural finnage) and these fish could survive quite well in a larger tank physically i think. they are good swimmers, quite territorial and can get to the food. They still do not like filter currents tho... i assume because they are unused to them.

Now, another angle. Bettas (sad to say) have almost always been jarred at an early age for sale. This means that they have had very little social interaction as a young fish. It also means that the "home" that they grew up in is very small. These fish very rarely get to see the inside of a 4' community tank before they are sold.

so what does this mean?
Lets go with an analogy. you have lived in a small laundry your entire life. you can see through your walls into other laundries but you cannot communicate with the inhabitants. All of a sudden your laundry is upended into a bustling cocktail party.
Or for arguements sake, an empty football field.

if the fish hasnt been prepared for this, it is not going to handle it well. Some fish never get used to it, others will put on a brave face and learn about the new environment.

In most cases, gouramis are far better socialised as young fish.

A lot of people bypass this part of the fish.
What? a fish has an emotional state i should be concerned about?? YES. And why wouldn't it? Almost all betta owners know that fish have different personalities, different actions, different responses to stress and stimuli, so the easiest way for you to comprehend this as a layman behaviouralist is to say "well, i think this fish is *feeling* this or that"

People do the same things to dogs. you get an abused dog, you don't treat it the same way as you treat a well socialised puppy from a breeder do you? Well, why do fish require any less thought?

A car trip and water change is stressful enough, but add a new environment and tankmates to this mix and you are either going to have an angry fish or a petrified one.

Now, i know some well adjusted abused dogs, and i know some that never ever recovered. I also know some well socialised puppies that well, hmm, yes... there are a lot of things that go towards making up a personality, and unfortunately/fortunately humans arent in control of them all.
Apply the same thinking to bettas.


Just pointing out that there is far more to consider when thinking about this topic that "bettas need rice paddies too"

[span class="edited"][Edited by Callatya 2004-06-16 23:34][/span]

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

I see your point, tetra fan, but I would think that there is not so little territory that the fish would confine itself to that small of a size of territory. I don't think a gallon is bad necessarily, even so.. I keep mine in a 2 ish gallon, like I said, but I've used a gallon tank before. It's the betta spheres with poor lighting ( led moonlight thingie or whatever.. fish can hardly see his own food) that have no top and only hold about 4 cups of water, and the betta barraks that people use as permanent housing, and other insanely confined places that people have decided was acceptable just because they were sold for bettas with a picture of a betta on it. Those are the things I have a problem with.. not a gallon container that gets fresh water on a regular basis. I provided the picture of a betta's natural habitat to dispell the " Well, that tiny cup is just like their natural habitat... they like it." myth I keep hearing and seeing. Our tank bred bettas have never been in a rice patty, but some of their health requirements are obviously going to be the same. I don't think you can breed a fish to be " happy" in three cups of water.

I just want to say somethings first:

1) It's insulting and pointless to call Alpha a troll: even if he brings up a question, answers it himself, and is reluctant to listen to what "you guys" have to say. He posted a topic in a forum for discussion. Isn't that the point of a forum? He is discussing an issue which is relevant and he feels is significant. If you don't want to discuss it, or if you are annoyed at the "trolling" (which I don't think it is) then you are more than welcome NOT to post a reply, and you are certainly welcome not to read further.

And if "you guys" doesn't apply to you (if you think that keeping bettas in a small tank is not okay), then why would you take offense to the use of "you guys"? Obviously, it doesn't apply to you. Furthermore, I agree that the majority of people consider 2gallons fine for a betta. I consider 2 gallons fine for a betta. The reason I think 2gallons is fine for a betta is because I have seen them thrive. They do well - are active, eat healthily, are personable, and seem generally lively. Which is the reason I think 2gallons is fine for a betta and not a gourami - simply because bettas can thrive in 2gallons; while a gourami most likely cannot.

2) Saving the betta by buying it - Well, I see it in a similar way - at least that is one more betta that can have a better home than it would in the LFS. It's true that this would be "supporting the trade". But the fundamental point is there you are now caring for one betta and can hopefully provide for it to help it thrive. Of course, there are farms for many times of animals - bettas, puppies, danios, goldfish. I don't see how the demand is going to stop, so the farming will continue with or without your refusal to buy a betta. But by buying one betta, you can provide for it a better home than the LFS.

3) I agree that the current bettas you find in the stores are too many generations away from their humble origin in the rice paddies. Similarly, though my ancestors came from a "jungle", I live in a town now - in a completely different environment from my ancestors. If you put me back into the "jungle" I will probably not survive. Consequently, I think that trying to determine the water depth of rice paddies, or if bettas leave their territories in rice paddies, or if bettas come in contact with others in rice paddies, or the length of dry spells in rice paddies - well, it's all a little pointless, and can be argued many times over.

4) I also think bettas are intelligent. They seem very personable to me, and have a distinct personality. There have been times when my bettas will act stubborn and refuse to eat. Or act friendly and put on a show for me. Contrastingly, goldfish just swim around and wander about kind of aimlessly. Goldfish will certainly learn to recognize you as well as feeding time. But isn't it cute when a betta will leave the confines of his plant to come look squarely at you? I consider bettas to be quite intelligent compared to many other fish. Are they as intelligent as an Oscar? No, I wouldn't say that. But I would certainly say they are more intelligent than goldfish. Bettas have a great personality, imho.

I didn't base my concept of intelligence on environmental stimulation because I don't think that shows a good concept of intelligence. Bettas will do fine in a simple environment. Some other fish, cichlids certainly, need more stimulation. But I don't equate stimulation with intelligence. It's a concept that holds with mammals (because mammals are warm blooded and very active, thus = intelligence = the ability to interact and react to stimulation). However, I wouldn't apply it to fish. So I base my concept of intelligence on a fish' capacity for "personality". Some guppies are fools compared to bettas. Lol.

Well, that is a lot. I am done.

Drinkmonkey I have a unknown res too

Anyway Alpha, my dad has been taken care of bettas since he was 16 in Vietnam. Let's see he is currently 52...hmmm 36 years of experience with bettas. So whoever said they had bettas for 20 years on and off is quite possible.

20+ years, that would be me. I am 37 and bought my first betta when I was 15.

Maybe it depends on where you're from and availability but yes they were called bettas then, they were sold in cups, and sold as pet fish.


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There is water at the bottom of the ocean

about the territories, they aren't all that small if you think about it, in just about all species, their territories are large enough so they can't constantly see other competators, if you will notice in that pic, posted before the water is quite clear, so this means a even larger territory, now of course the size will depend on which part of their ecosystem they are in, because of how good vision is in it.


but as far a show betta's have never seen any better, think about this, in puppy mills most puppys and dogs are never removed from a single room, and they are rarley large rooms, so does this make it okay to keep them in a room their entire life, we'll few ppl think so, and this is very similar to the betta trade, now i know its not possable to keep every male in his own 5g, especially when large scale breeder can have well over 1000 at a time.

so does the way they have previously treated make it right to just give them a extra gallon and make it right.

and yeah betta's don't always take well to a community tank, they are all individuals, but i have yet to have one that didn't come to enjoy a tank or large tank, with proper filtration and current, which are probably 2 of the easiest thing in a any aquarium to change.

I've tried bowls, vases, small tanks, normal tank, and even tanks over 100g's, and they have always been happier and healthier in tanks than anything else. thou above a 100g's can cause problems with height.

i've had o probably atleast 50+(not includding babys),now maybe i was just lucky that they all liked tanks, but thru out all of them, i never saw anything to show they enjoyed a bowl or small tanks. if given the chance they are quite active, heck the one in my 55 just cruises around the tank checking out everything, includding all the other fish. thou i have had some who didn't like company, and they didn't get any less treatment than the others.