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hi guys,

i really want to start a marine tank in my 35G but i can't really afford all the live rock. 600AUDs to fill my tank!

is there any way i can still go marine without live rock, reef or anything.. ?

i asume i need a better light. and .. well i dunno i'm outta ideas!

help?

You can have a Fish Only tank, with no live rock. IMO it doesnt look as nice or as natural, but it is certainly possible.

excellent..

how do i do that?

ok i've been to my LFS. and i;ve learnt a bit more about saltwater setups. i wanna clarify with you all if hes telling me the right thing.. and i'm doing the right thing..

ok. its possably to have a fish only tank.
this means:
1. you dont need a protein skimmer, a power head, and UFG is useless. but cannister. or HOB is the best option for filtration

2. coral sand is the best option with NO live rock setup.. that being said, can i keep live coral, dead coral in this tank knowing that none of the above is needed? or if i want live coral i need to have a power head and skimmer? i know i cant have coral without a superhuge light. so scrap that idea. can i still keep invertabre? in my proposed FO tank?

3. light is also not as important as a live rock setup? which means the tube i used for my FW trops is ok for my clowns and my live coral?

4. using synthetic salt means that i have to change the water weekly. at 25%?

5. and this is the one that worried me the most.
because nothings cycling the tank the fish can go in straight after water treatment.. is this true?

6.for a 35G tank 10 kgs of coral sand is enough for a 35g tank. a thinner subsrate is better?

so how much is true and how much is bs guys?

Last edited by stuquarium at 28-Feb-2005 05:00

uh, you mentioned corals in there, are you planning on doing corals in this tank? corals require HUGE ammounts of good light usually 1800k+

Daka<<<<

well not anymore

i dont really have the money for a huge light set up. but i thought it would be a good way to decorate the tank..

i was wrong.

If you had corals, it would no longer be a fish only tank. And there are ways to cycle a tank without adding fish first, ammonia, Bio Spira Marine, etc. I wouldn't not get powerheads. Most SW fish appreciate the extra flow they provide.

1. you dont need a protein skimmer, a power head, and UFG is useless. but cannister. or HOB is the best option for filtration

I would have to disagree...A wet/dry sump would be the best filtration used WITH a skimmer. You will still need powerheads for circulation. Saltwater animals are use to and need more flow for many reasons. One of those reasons is that SW doesnt hold as much O2 as easily as FW does, more circulation means more O2..another reason is the fish need the exercise...without it they will be unhealthy.

2. coral sand is the best option with NO live rock setup.. that being said, can i keep live coral, dead coral in this tank knowing that none of the above is needed? or if i want live coral i need to have a power head and skimmer? i know i cant have coral without a superhuge light. so scrap that idea. can i still keep invertabre? in my proposed FO tank?

I would say that crushed coral would be best in a fish only setup..coral SAND will blow all over the place without live rock in the tank. Even after you get a good bacteria culture going it will still blow around. Crushed coral in a fish only tank is best because that way you can do gravel vacs to remove detrius. Once again, even with a fish only I would recommend a skimmer....even more so actually. most people that have fish only tanks tend to feed more, and keep more aggressive/messy eaters.

3. light is also not as important as a live rock setup? which means the tube i used for my FW trops is ok for my clowns and my live coral?

You will probably want to add atleast one more light just like the one that you have. I would go with one 10K bulb, and one actinic bulb. Even though live rock is pretty low maint. when it comes to lighting, the coralline algae will grow better with a little more light....which means you wont just have brown rock, you will instead have purples, pinks, etc.

4. using synthetic salt means that i have to change the water weekly. at 25%?

If you go with a fish only, or fish only with live rock setup you dont necessarily have to change that much water that often. You will need to watch your nitrate levels, and they will let you know when you need to do a water change. Weekly, or even bi-weekly water changes of 15% should be enough...once again, your water parameters will let you know when you need to do a water change.

5. and this is the one that worried me the most.
because nothings cycling the tank the fish can go in straight after water treatment.. is this true?

Nope, not true at all. Even if you are not cycling with live rock, there are many other ways to cycle a SW tank...a raw cocktail shrimp or two in a pair of nylons will kick the ammonia up in a hurry. With SW fish I would never recommend cycling with fish because most SW fish are wild harvested and not aquacultured like the majority of FW fish are.

6.for a 35G tank 10 kgs of coral sand is enough for a 35g tank. a thinner subsrate is better?

I would go with about one inch of crushed coral....no more than that as it will be harder to do gravel vacs.

so how much is true and how much is bs guys?

Id say most of what they told you is BS...99.9% of it anyway.


[hr width='40%']I’m here without you baby, but you're still on my lonely mind
I think about you baby, and I dream about you all the time
I’m here without you baby, but you're still with me in my dreams…



Last edited by DarkRealm Overlord at 28-Feb-2005 18:45

yikes 99$

after more reading and asking questions and reading heres what i've decided.
it'll be a FOWLR setup
10kgs of LR and 10 of base rock.
10kgs of coral sand.
a protein skimmer (after 3 months)
HOB as a back-up filtration.. i was told the LR acts as filtration too
another light fitting 18W (18inches)
and then fish everntually

am i on the right track?

Hmmm... Usually I am in complete agreement with DRO there, but this one I have to conflict.

"1. you dont need a protein skimmer, a power head, and UFG is useless. but cannister. or HOB is the best option for filtration "

I would have to disagree...A wet/dry sump would be the best filtration used WITH a skimmer. You will still need powerheads for circulation. Saltwater animals are use to and need more flow for many reasons. One of those reasons is that SW doesnt hold as much O2 as easily as FW does, more circulation means more O2..another reason is the fish need the exercise...without it they will be unhealthy.

If you are going to be doing 25% water changes at least every other week, and more prefferably every week, then no you do not need a protein skimmer (more on this below). As the water changes will be removing and controlling the stuff the skimmer removes. And, if you are using a wet/dry, with an ample amount of bio-balls or the equivilent, then you will be getting ample enough oxygenation into the water. This is the main purpose of the wet/dry set up, vs the just have the bio-balls submerged, is that the dripping or fine stream of the water flowing over them creates a large surface area for oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange.
In a 35 gal tank, which is what you are still thinking of using I assume, as long as you have a large enough return pump from your wet/dry filter (250-300 gph), you will have enough current for the fish to get enough exercise, and will not need a power head at all.

The reason for using the crushed coral or coral sand for a substrate, is that the calcium in it will leech into the water and help to buffer and hold the ph and hardness up.

Lighting for a FOWLR tank, can be the same normal output lighting you have on any of your FW tanks. The fish need light, but do not require high lighting. I also agree though, that an actinic blue light will make the tank appear more colorful, and will bring out some colors and markings on some fish more.

"4. using synthetic salt means that i have to change the water weekly. at 25%?"

If you go with a fish only, or fish only with live rock setup you dont necessarily have to change that much water that often. You will need to watch your nitrate levels, and they will let you know when you need to do a water change. Weekly, or even bi-weekly water changes of 15% should be enough...once again, your water parameters will let you know when you need to do a water change.

If you prefer to do fewer water changes, or prefer to do them less frequently, then in this case I would recomend you do have a skimmer. The skimmer will allow you to do less amounts, and at fewer intervals. As the skimmer will be removing a lot of stuff that normally would be breaking down and adding to your biological filter load, it will take longer for the nitrates to build up, and thus you can wait longer periods of time between water changes.

I also have to highly agree, never to just put fish in a new SW tank. You must build your nitrogen cycle prior to it. Though there are fish that can be used to cycle a tank, it is not highly recomended. The thing is, with SW the cycle can take 2, 3, 4, and even 5 times longer to complete than in a FW tank. Patients is the best quality to have during the start up of a SW tank of any kind.

Stu, you are very much on the right track. But, let express the 3 most important things you can do when first setting up a SW tank of any kind.
Number 1, patience. You must take your time, and not rush anything about the start up. Many things will happen over the first couple of weeks to months, and any of these can cause devistation in your tank, and thus you would be heart broke, as well as be out some of your hard earned money.
Secondly, is more patience! The entire set up, from start up of the tank, to the completion of the cycle, to the completion of your setup, will take several months to complete. As when you are ready for fish, you will need to add them just as slowly, as you will have to allow for the cycle to catch up and grow, to meet the demands of the new life added to the tank. Then you will add another fish the same way.
Thirdly, is, yes you can guess, its PATIENCE!!! All I can say, is, if you move to quickly, your death rate, and/or cost rate, will increase, and will do so too quickly as well.

HTH....

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

I can agree with that also Marc...but IMO it makes more sense to spend the money upfront and buy a skimmer instead of having the ongoing costs of more water changes...Just more cost effective to me.

soooo




[hr width='40%']I’m here without you baby, but you're still on my lonely mind
I think about you baby, and I dream about you all the time
I’m here without you baby, but you're still with me in my dreams…

I'd like to comment on this:

The entire set up, from start up of the tank, to the completion of the cycle, to the completion of your setup, will take several months to complete. As when you are ready for fish, you will need to add them just as slowly, as you will have to allow for the cycle to catch up and grow, to meet the demands of the new life added to the tank. Then you will add another fish the same way.

Okay...I've had my tank since Christmas, and it's STILL not set up. *cough*

Right now I'm keeping a very rare species in it...

Brace yourself...

The dust bunny

Okay. About the initial set up...I can be living proof that it's a big jump, a lot of money, and kinda scary...your actual cycling time shouldn't be too long; unlike freshwater tanks which can take upwards of 4 weeks, I think most saltwaters can be cycled in 2 or so. Like Marc was saying, a very important thing to remember is that you have to stock your tank S-L-O-W-L-Y...there's a common misconception with FW fish vs. SW fish. Everyone says marine fishes are much harder to keep, but it's more that the water quality is harder to keep straight. Stock slow so you dont cause ammonia spikes and throw your tank off balance. Be patient.

In marine tanks, only bad things happen quickly!!!

I might have missed this...but what are you planning to stock with???


[hr width='40%'][font color="#000080"]"I know that you are something special, To you I'd be always faithful
I want to be what you always needed, Then I hope you'll see the heart in me"[/font]

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

thanks guys!

i'm learning loads.

i was going to take it slow. mainly due to finacal restraints.

the 1st 2 weeks i'll probably just be adding the sunstrate. and the water, treated with sure start and that chlorine ride stuff.

a few weeks later i was planing to add the liver rock, and the filter, oh and the lights. i dont think a sump is a good idea. because of noise and room, well lack therof. so a HOB is probably my only option.

then 2 weeks later i was going to add a skimmer. leave it.. 203 weeks, then add fish...

for the record. i was only thinking of keeping a pair of clowns.

hopefully thats the right way to go about it?

Sounds like a good plan to me!

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

excellent!

thanks for all you help everyone.. i've got a tank to empty and clean!