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Pristella,

I will do my best to give you some nice insight on this project you've decided to embark upon.

First off, welcome to the darkside. We hope you stay.

My first advice, no matter what, is to read the articles stickied to the top of the General Marine forum, and follow my recommendations for some good books, such as Marine Invertebrates by Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner.

Now...

Tank and stand
Okay, that's pretty much a given, 75 gallons is a good size. Sorta similar to mine. I have a 72, my parents liked the whole bowfront thing, as did I. My advice with your stand, is to just make sure it's a sturdy one. We made modifications on mine to ensure it'd be able to handle the load we put on top of it.

lighting (130 watt compact??? )
If this is going to be a fowlr tank, I'd maybe give it a little more light. Might be more pleasing to your eye, and help the rock to thrive as well. But I tend to like going overkill on things, so get some other opinions please.

Skimmer (prizm pro??? )
I personally dont like prizms. I've worked with them before, and I think they're *okay* for small tanks. The skimmer I use is the AquaC EV, and I also like AquaMedic's turboflotor, though I've heard it can be tricky to initiate. Luckily, a fellow board member has personal experience with them, and I'm sure he'd be more than willing to help you out if you needed it. Wouldn't you Nate.

Filter (I have a eheim 2215)
My opinion is that you dont really need a cannister on this type of tank. I think you're better off just getting a really good protein skimmer. Maybe I'd reconsider this if the tank is destined for a really heavy bioload.

powerheads (2-3)
Always a good idea. Personally, I hate powerheads though. Dont get me wrong, they're incredibly useful, but I think they're ugly. They just take away from the main display soooo much. Instead, some nice alternatives are things like the Oceans Motions unit, Tunze systems () and seaswirls. There's a million other ways you can get nice current and movement in the tank that will make things look a lot more natural. This may require spending a bit more money, but hey, this is an expensive hobby.

Substrate (opinions please)
Basically, you have two options. Crushed coral, and sand. Pros and cons...crushed coral looks pretty good, it'll be a nice spot for live critters to thrive, but it needs to be gravel vac'd just like gravel in a regular freshwater tank would. If you go with sand, you want something aragonite based for sure. It will help naturally buffer your pH to where it needs to be. I have a deep sand bed in my tank as a means of naturally reducing nitrates. You may choose to do the same, or maybe just go with a smaller one for decorative reasons. Live sand will be aragonite based, and it just helps speed up cycling time. My recommendation, if you go with sand, is to do a base of regular sand, and a top layer of live to speed things up.

Live Rock
base Rock
It's okay to do a mix of live rock and base rock. It's a great way to save money. Just be aware that the base rock might take awhile to look very live. Look for the most porous rock available, as that will do the best job of filtering. A pound per gallon is a good rule to go by, though you will prolly end up wanting more for decorative reasons. I have currently about...ehh, maybe 100 pounds in my tank.

Salt mix (Instant ocean or kent)
Instant ocean and Kent are basically the same thing now that they are manufactured from the same company. Are these your only options? The salt I use and recommend is Tropic Marin. If I had AquaMedic salt available to me, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. A lot of people do use IO, and have had luck with it. It's sold everywhere, it's inexpensive, and it's used a lot so it makes acclimation easier sometimes. I'd get some more opinions on this.

Hydrometer
Definetely a must have. I recommend getting a refractometer too, as they are more accurate. Then you can calibrate the hydrometer for daily/weekly useage.

Heater
I'd recommend getting two 250watt Ebo-Jagers. That's what I'm running on my tank, and I'm very happy with them. Ebo and Tronic are the only heater brands I trust. It's nice to have multiple because if one fails, you've got an automatic back up.

Refugium
Yes!!! Go for it! I love refugiums. Initially, they're the best way to get a bigger tank without actually changing the size of your main display. They can add lots of water volume. Also, what a great place to hide all that technical equipment! In addition, I have macroalgae on my sump, plus some cheap flourescent bulbs. The lights turn on at night, so the algae does photosynthesis. This is called a reverse photoperiod. By doing this, my tank has a stable pH throughout the entire day and night. Fuge's are also a great way to cultivate your own live critters, like pods and mysis, for your fish to eat.

1st choice fish
Clown(ocellaris or percula)- would do fine, inexpensive, pretty hardy, easy to find

Yellowtail damsel (i don't like,but fiance wants) - stay away from damsels, they grow up to be ugly and aggressive, they'll bully every body else

Yellow watchman goby - should be fine, cute fish

scissortail dartfish - not familiar with this off the top of my head, and i'm too lazy to look it up now :%)

firefish (any color) - ohh I love a nice purple firefish great fish, my only complain is that they live up to their name, being part of the dartfish family, they are GOOD jumpers, and will make it a hobby to figure out how to get out of the tank, for whatever reason they're sort of skittish I guess

1st choice fish

Royal gramma - a pretty fish I guess, common, hardy, inexpensive, just not one of my personal favorites

Yellow tang - ehh, sorta common, no? A 75 gallon is a decent size tank for that fish, it will do okay, make sure you provide lots of algae for grazing.

yellow head jawfish - too complicated, needs very special sand bed requirements due to it's natural tendency to dig and burrow, I'd stay away, though they are pretty

2nd choice fish

Carpenters flasher wrasse - ohhh love this one! gorgeous red colors most of the time, if you can find it, go for it shouldn't be the first fish added to the tank though, and like most wrasses, it will like a population of copepods I believe

Macneill's assessor basslet - dont know off the top of my head, maybe I'll look it up later

Chromis - There's a LOT of different kinds of chromis, I'm assuming here you mean blue/green reef chromis? They're very common, and can have nice colors too. The important thing to know is buy them in at least a trio, and at the largest size you can. The juvies dont do well.

Curious wormfish - err...dunno

maroon clown - gold bar maroons are very nice fish being one of the larger clowns, they tend to be a little agressive I believe. You could have them, but it would limit your options stocking wise more than a pair of percs or ocellaris would.

tomato clown - My experience with them...I dont like them. I dont think they're very pretty, and I met a mean one at work that just constantly bullies me. He bites! It's crazy. Idk what his problem is. He'd make an okay addition to your tank, it's just not one of my favorite fish.

Diamond watchman goby - pretty fish, I like them, relatively hardy, inexpensive, easy to find

6 line wrasse - ohhh, one of my favorites!!! I love this fish. They are "cuckoo for copepods" and love picking at the live rock. Get only one.

3rd choice fish

spotted or green mandarin (Fiance really likes,I don't due to their difficulty) - ehh, I'd stay away from it. It's not a beginners fish, and needs a very mature tank that is developed and loaded with reef bugs. Since they dont take to prepared foods, special feedings are needed. Poor chance of survival in most tanks.

Kauderns cardinal - great choice, does well, again,
inexpensive, easy to find, and relatively hardy, aim for tank bred or raised specimens if you can!

yellow stripe clingfish - not familiar with this?

filamented flasher wrasse - didn't we already go over this one?

white ray shrimp goby - dunno bout this one off the top of my head either

Well, I think that's enough information to get you started at least. Hope that helped a bit! Keep the questions coming. I like seeing that you've definetely done a considerable amount of research. It's annoying when newcomers just say "Okay, I want a tank. How much is it going to cost. How do I set it up. What fish do I put in." Keep doing your homework, and I'll bet that you'll have a very successful tank.


-Ferret [img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]


EDIT: to space things out

Last edited by ferretfish at 09-Dec-2005 21:13

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Fist of all thank you ferretfish!!!! You always give good advice to other members so I was hoping you would respond. As for the skimmer I have decided to go with the turboflotor. Do I really need a sump and a refugium? About the fish,almost all the fish you said to stay away from were fish that my fiance wanted and I had pretty much ruled out.I just put them on the list to make her happy.I only want to use the cannister filter because I just got it really cheap.And I am also getting a couple powerheads and maybe another cannister and a bio-wheel all for $25 from a guy at work.The live rock situation is just to try and cut some of the price in half.I figured half live rock and half base rock would save some money so I could get the turboflotor skimmer.Can you help me try to find a good stocking plan? I know I want a clown and goby and that is the only 2 fish set in stone.

Do I really need a sump and a refugium?
You dont NEED one, but essentially, they're just so great to have. If you can buy a reef ready tank, that is, one that is predrilled with the overflow and whatnot (they tend to just cost a little bit more, definetely worth it IMO though) then it will be really easy to set up a sump or refugium. They just have sooo many benefits. I know I said them before, but I'll run through them again anyway. :%)
(1) adds tremendous water volume to the tank (more water equals more stability...more room for error, etc.)
(2) a place to hide equipment...put all your heaters, skimmers, filters, misc. pumps and whatnot down here, and you'll never see them
(3) reverse photoperiods...help to control pH
(4) a place to cultivate live reef buggies...a great treat for ALL of your fish
(5) a jail...! sumps also serve as the time out zone for me...if I run into a problem fish, he goes in the sump till I can find another home for him it's not as harsh as it sounds, I promise

Can you help me try to find a good stocking plan? I know I want a clown and goby and that is the only 2 fish set in stone.

I definetely dont mind helping, dont get me wrong. But this is your tank, and it should reflect your personality and interests. If I make up the stocking list, it will be totally based around me, and you probably wont like it much.

Do you know which type of clownfish you want? I recommend getting two so you can have a pair. Personally, my favorite kind of clowns are the pink skunks. I just love their color. That's my girly side. Then again, the classic ocellaris clown is also lovely.

There's also about a million different types of gobies as well. I like blennies a lot also. If you're not going to have coral in this tank, I recommend getting a bicolor blenny. They are so mischievous and cute, I wish I could have one in my tank. One of my favorite fish, for sure.

If it was my tank, it'd be full of anthias and wrasses, because that's what I like. Are you willing to order things online and pay for extra shipping and handling?

My suggestion, is that you and your fiance make time on a weekend perhaps, where you go to some of the best fish stores around you and browse. Just look at everything they have. Anything that really sparks your interest, write down. Make a list. You'll be surprised at what you might discover! When your adventure is over, report back here, and let us know what you've found. Then, it'll be a lot easier to make a stocking list for you.


-Ferret [img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Well we looked around and I still want a clown.We found a bunch of things that we thought were cool,but either get too big or are just too aggressive.We pretty much just decided to go with what is on our list as they are really the only fish we agree on.We were talking to a few people and everyone said that if we end up not getting a yellow tang that a 55 gallon would be fine for 3-4 small fish.I still would love to do a 75,but I don't know.I might go with a 55 for now and go bigger when we actually have a house,not a basement apartment.I was also told that if I have atleast 3 inches of mixed grain sand and live rock that a jawfish would be ok.The owner of the lfs said that he never goes more than 2-3 inches of substrate and that his jawfish has a nice home under a rock and is really happy with it.Is a jawfish impossible for me to have due to the fact I only want a few inches of sand? Like I said before I might have to drop down to a 55 gallon for right now so I am trying to find a few small fish that we both like.So if at all possible can someone make some options from the list above for both a 55 and a 75 gallon fowlr setup? Is all the other stuff on my list ok?

Luckily, a fellow board member has personal experience with them, and I'm sure he'd be more than willing to help you out if you needed it. Wouldn't you Nate.

Turboflotors are a piece of cake to set up and adjust...there really isnt any adjustment on them

If I make up the stocking list, it will be totally based around me, and you probably wont like it much.

Not totally true

I was also told that if I have atleast 3 inches of mixed grain sand and live rock that a jawfish would be ok.The owner of the lfs said that he never goes more than 2-3 inches of substrate and that his jawfish has a nice home under a rock and is really happy with it.Is a jawfish impossible for me to have due to the fact I only want a few inches of sand?

Id say that the LFS owner was trying to make a sale I could be wrong though. Jawfish really should have atleast 6 inches of mixed grain substrate to be totally happy. Their burrows normally are a complex tunnel/cave system that they can use to get around from one part of the tank to the other. If you have ever seen (I have) a jawfish with a nice DEEP sand bed, you will see a truely happy fish!

So if at all possible can someone make some options from the list above for both a 55 and a 75 gallon fowlr setup?

Clowns
Firefish
6-line
Royal Gramma
Kauderns cardinal
Chromis
Yellowtail damsel (i don't like,but fiance wants) *probably the most peaceful damsel you can get(other than clowns) Id actually add some of these to my tank without any worries.

Ok this is the last time I will mention the jawfish...lol.Would there be a way to maybe slope a sand bed so 1 side of the tank could have a DSB of like 6 inches and the other side not be as deep? She will not give up on the jawfish.If not she is really happy that you said a yellow tail damsel would be ok.

A sloped sand bed would work...It might look a little funny though depending on how you do it. Jawfish are def. a cool fish and very fun to watch. One of my friends just took down his jawfish tank that had a breeding pair of yellowhead jaws in it.

Ok after alot of research I have decided to do a 75 gallon fowlr tank.It will be a project and will not even get started for a couple of months,but I want to know what I need to get for this setup so I can plan and study.I know it takes longer to cycle,but do I have to have 1 pound of live rock per gallon? Can I do like 45 pounds of live rock and like 30 pounds of base rock? What about sand? What should I use,live sand,aragonite sand,regular sand,or a mixture of live sand and aragonite sand? Or is it best to use crushed coral? OK this is a list of things I have come up with.Let me know if there is anything missing or opinions on brands.Please help me out.

Tank and stand
lighting (130 watt compact??? )
Skimmer (prizm pro??? )
Filter (I have a eheim 2215)
powerheads (2-3)
Substrate (opinions please)
Live Rock
base Rock
Salt mix (Instant ocean or kent)
Hydrometer
Heater
Refugium

Ok here is the list of fish that my fiance and I are intrested in.It is broken up into 3 groups based on how we want them.I only want like 4-5 fish.3-4 if we go with a yellow tang.Of course I will have hermits and snails.

1st choice fish
Clown(ocellaris or percula)
Yellowtail damsel (i don't like,but fiance wants)
Yellow watchman goby
scissortail dartfish
firefish (any color)
Royal gramma
Yellow tang
yellow head jawfish

2nd choice fish
Carpenters flasher wrasse
Macneill's assessor basslet
Chromis
Curious wormfish
maroon clown
tomato clown
Diamond watchman goby
6 line wrasse

3rd choice fish
spotted or green mandarin (Fiance really likes,I don't due to their difficulty)
Kauderns cardinal
yellow stripe clingfish
filamented flasher wrasse
white ray shrimp goby

Of course you can use the 29g as a "training tank"..but remember that the bigger the tank the more stable water parameters are gonna be.

As for how hard a SW tank is to take care of.....not very hard at all once you figure out the chemistry side of it. Its hard to understand until you start to play with it and see what everything does and you can see first hand that when you change X that it also changes Y.

IMO, a SW tank is actually less time consuming than a FW tank.

Ok I will decide on small fish later.What about taking care of a saltwater tank? What is involved? My fiance is starting to back out a little,because she thinks it is going to be way too hard.And half the money that would go into setting it up is hers.Is it really that hard to take care of? She wants to upgrade my FW to a 55 and just use the 29 for a fowlr and just let me have my clown and whatever little fish I want.Should I maybe just use the 29 and get a nice refugium and get like a clown,goby,and maybe a firefish? A 29 seems small,but could I use it as a training tank?

Good luck getting your sand bed to STAY sloped. Mine doesn't go any way I want it to because of all the current, so I stoppped playing with it a long time ago.

Jawfish are cool...

The three kind I've seen at my work, pearly, dusky, and blue spotted, are def. worth setting up a special tank for. They make the coolest burrows and tunnels, it's really fun to watch. And then as soon as you feed, ZIP! They pop out for a snack, and then cautiously retreat back to their hole.


-Ferret [img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]


Oh, and Nate...the stocking list thing doesn't apply to you, because we have the same taste, and you know that. So pshhh.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

well after giving up on this for a few months, I have started thinking about it again.It will still be a project thing and will not be completed for a while,but I am moving so I had to sell my tanks.I have been without fish for about a month and it is driving me insane.So I want to get back into them once I get settled in,but I want to do SW.It will be a 75 gallon or maybe a 90 gal if I can find one.I have also been reading post on both this site and www.fishgeeks.com and have decided it probably won't be a fowlr tank.I don't want a full blown reef tank,but I would like to have some types of corals,and things.I already found the lighting I want.The Outer Orbit HQI/Compact Fluorescent/Lunar Fixture on www.drsfostersmith.com.Would that be ok?I have also decided that since I am not going have more than 4-5 fish that I want to do a DSB so my fiance can get her Jawfish that she really wants.It would be very helpful if someone could give me a list of EVERYTHING that I will need so I can start pricing things and researching.As for live rock I will probably just stick to the half live half base rock.It seems to be a big money saver.Also I am still thinking a turbofloter for skimmer.Please help me out with everything else!!!. Thanks!!!

Wow; I posted intensly on this thread at one point.

Anyway.

Pristella,

You basically had the list of equipment, I dont see why you need it again. It'd be easier if you posted more specific equipment questions, instead of asking us to tell you everything you need. As a responsible aquarist, which I'm sure you are, you should know the bulk of the things you need. There are beginner articles stickied to the top of the General Marine forum that go through step by step what you would need for different types of saltwater set ups.

Definetely go as big as you can, you should be able to get a 90 over a 75 because the difference isn't in length, they're both 4' tanks. The depth and width just change. While you're at it, just go with a 120. They're 4x2x2, I just set on up and I looove it.

Do more research on jawfish; they dont just require a DSB. They need mixed granules in their bed, they like to dig and tunnel so different layers are required. Matty keeps one in a sump/fuge he set up to cater to it, I'm sure he wouldn't mind discussing this fish in depth if you asked nicely.

A mixed reef would be fine, you dont have to do strict FOWLR if you dont want to. There are many soft corals that are pretty, require little light, and are relatively hardy providing you give them good water conditions. The orbit fixtures are nice, no doubt, but you might want to consider implementing something that has MH that way you can keep any corals you'd like.

Oh, and about the turboflotor. I assume you mean the AquaMedic skimmer? I'm running one of those in conjunction with my AquaC EV skimmer. They're both efficient and excellent IMO. I know Nate has much experience with AM products as well. He'll tell you they're a bit difficult to start up, but once you tweak it just right they'll be fine.

PS: If you want a full out 72 gallon set up I have one...

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

First of all if I was going to be staying on Long Island I would take the tank in a heart beat.Howerver I am moving To Anchorag,AK at the end of July and I think shipping would be way too much.
I do know that Jawfish need different grades of sand.To be honest the Jawfish is really for my finace,but she might get either a FW tank or another type of pet.Then the SW would be all mine and I would not get the Jawfish,and would probably only do a few inches of sand.
As for the list I know it might be good,I am just nervous about doing this.I am getting more confident though.The is anotherlighting system on www.drsfostersmith.com I have looked at.But the one that I posted does have MH.It's more wattage(560 watts I believe) for less money.The other light is the Aqualight Pro HQI/Compact Fluorescent/Lunar Light Fixture.It is almost $100 more and has less wattage(492watts I think).
My issues I guess really are not with a list of supplies,but more with the setup of the sump/refugium.I am going to buy "Conscientious Marine Aquarist" soon. It seems to be a very highly recommended book. I am not very handy with plumbing and stuff like that so the sump is driving me insane.Especially if I don't end up with a pre-drilled tank.

I almost forgot...Is a UV sterilizer a good thing to get? I have heard that it is almost as important as a skimmer.

UV's in a reef tank are not important.

I have one, but I only run it for like a week or two after adding someone new, OR if i'm having a freak algae accident. It's one of those things that I wouldn't buy until later on and only if you feel you need it. A skimmer is def. 3094820934 times more important.

I hate to break it to you, but one of the most important things you're going to need to have for this project is confidence. You cant get anywhere without it honestly. I set up my first reef when I was only 16, and I got into it younger than that. If I can do it, anybody can.

The plumbing is only difficult if you have really confusing wave makers and whatnot. You MUST get a reef ready tank though, it's not even worth it if you dont, for a beginner. You need to buy something predrilled. The plumbing to the sump and return is a piece of cake, and idiot could do it I promise. And we'll be here to walk you through the rest of it.

Another thing I gotta say, is get involved with the reef community. Go on RC.com to find out if there's some sort of reef club or aquarium society in the area you're moving to. I could not have the tank that I have without my reef club buddies, they save my butt and donate so much to my tank, I cant imagine this hobby without them. GET INVOLVED. You wont regret it.

Did you say that you're on Long Island now??? Why not put the whole set up in the moving truck?!

Books-

I've read most of them. Buy REEF INVERTEBRATES by Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner if you need a good beginners book. It's like the Bible. I swear. I have a lot of other favorite books too, but that one should get you started. And if you are on Long Island, I think I know a guy who is selling his copy along with a bunch of others b/c he's moving and needs the cash.

HTH

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Thanks for the heads up on the UV sterilizer.I will wait for that.As for confidence,it is growing,because I am now 100% committed to do this, before I was still thinking about some other things.I'll get the other book first and then when I start getting set up I will get the other book that you mentioned.I will be looking for a pre-drilled tank when I start my search.I think there is a club in the area,and I actually thought about joining something like that.I think clubs are a great way to learn,and meet people that have the same hobby as you have.
As for moving,we are not going to have a moving truck.We are just shipping everything fedex and flying.Like I said before if I had more money saved up I would be very intrested in your setup,but I just can't afford to ship it.
I would like to tank you for all your help.This is going to be a fun project to start in a few months!!!

Nooo get REEF INVERTEBRATES first...I promise, i've read both, and this one is much more detailed and goes step by step, plus the information is up to date and personally I just love Calfo as an author, because he writes with humor, and it makes it easier to read through.

Definetely get involved with the club. If they're anything like mine you wont regret it. The best part about finding my club, other than all the free frags/fish I recieve, the trading benefits, the learning benefits...the best part was finding another reef enthusiast that lived within 5 minutes of me. Now I know I have someone to count on in case there's some sort of emergency, or if I just need a hand or something. It's the biggest and best securtity blanket I could ask for. GET INVOLVED. By joining a club you gain almost immediate acess to group buys, and wholesale deals. You save so much money, I guarantee it. You can get involved before your tank is even set up, those guys will have so much experience with equipment and whatnot, they'll make your whole set up process easier. When I moved into my recent tank I had a couple of guys come over, and we all worked together to get the move done quickly. They brought RO water, extra powerheads and heaters, and helped out with the plumbing and aquascaping as needed. I really cant stress this enough. Lol. GET INVOLVED!!! Okay I think I made my point.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Yeah you did get your point across.I'll will try to join if they still have it.I have not lived up there in years.I might just try and get both books then for twice the education.But i'll listen to you and get "Reef Invertebrates" first if I can only get 1.I kind of figured that it would not cover the planning and setup based on the title.I thought it would cover shrimp and crabs.I'll check into it.Thanks!!!!

Ok I just took your advice and ordered both books for $47 and change.Good deal I guess.So it looks like i'll have some reading to do soon.