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Hello,
I have very serious ideas for a reef tank. I just need everones say one whether this setup will work and there are any problems. I would like to have mostly pairs and there is not really a set size. So I just need to know what are some possible combos and tank sizes for those. Here are the fish I want...

Blue Assessor
Some Caridnalfish (Longfin or Polkadot)
Lionfish
Moray Eel
Flame Angel
Ocellaris
Striped Damsel
Flash Wrasse (Carpenter, maybe?)
Convict Blenny
Yellowhead Jawfish
Firefish

Thanks.

Chris

Half of those fish aren't reef safe.

And what size tank are you planning on using?

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Really? Aww man that stinks. I could use any tank size up to say... 55. Also what is the definition of reef safe, that they Just eat coral?

Chris

i blieve that is to much fish for a 55 and i would think that the common volitan lion fish would need around 50 gallons by itself.

Okay so I made some revisions... So can you give me amounts for these fish to
put in what size tank (Smaller the better)? I would like to breed what
is possible or so they can try.
Blue Assessor
Longfin Cardinal
Flame Angel
Ocellaris
Carpenter Wrasse
Yellowhead Jawfish
Firefish
Whitelip Moray?
Convict Blenny

So about the subtrate. So if I can get live sand, I will go w/o the
UGF. Can you explain more on whether or not I can have a canister AND
Wet/Dry? Also I wont get much coral but I will get Live Rock.

As for Inverts. I will get Cleaner Shrimp, Electric Flame Scalops and Urchins?

Chris

Breeding? Whoa...especially if this is your first saltwater tank, you have your hopes set up very high...there are not many marine fishes that can be successfully raised in captivity, especially by novice aquarists. ORA is making great advances in aquaculture but it's still nowhere near easy...

Are you looking for a reef tank or a breeding set up? Because they are two totally different things...

A breeding set up should not be this packed with animals. The only fish I usually see tank raised or captive bred are clowns (skunks, ocellaris, percula, sebae, cinnamon, tomato) and then smaller things like some royal grammas and certain species of dottybacks. Oh, and bangaii cardinals tend to do well too. Seahorse breeding can be achieved but only by the most experienced aquarists. A guy in my club bred clowns and seahorses, and it was very tedious...the newly hatched or born require specific diets and a lot of maintance.

55's are terrible reef tanks IMO. Yes, it's a good length at 4' but they are so ridiculously narrow that you cant have a nice rock structure the majority of the time. I would go with a 75, same length, much more width and height. The bigger the tank the more stable it will be, which is especially key if this is your first tank.

What kind of corals will you be keeping? You need to make sure that you have the right kind of lights for a reef tank otherwise your animals will not survive.

There are a couple beginner articles stickied to the top of the general marine forum, give them a read, I think you'll find them very helpful.

As for your fish...one of the articles is all about stocking smaller tanks, so it should be right up your alley.

Some things I noticed...

Flame angels, or any angel for that matter, are not reef safe fish. You have about a 50/50 shot when putting them in your tank. Personally I dont think it's worth the risk of losing hundreds of dollars worth of coral. If you're hooked on this fish, do a FOWLR tank.

The cardinals and clowns are good choices.

Firefish aren't a bad choice, but be warned that they are jumpers. Being a part of the dartfish family, they are famous for carpet surfing. You better make sure you have a tight lid on this tank. Same with the eel, they're excellent escape artists. And most eels will eat anything they can fit in their mouth. The one exception I can think of is the zebra moray, which gets gigantic.

Jawfish...a prized fish that not many people can keep. They require very specific sand beds, as they like to tunnel and need different grains for this hobby of theirs. Another site member, Matty, has one and I'm sure if you PM'd him he'd love to talk to you about them.

Non-dwarf species of lionfish get pretty big, and because of their body structure they need wide tanks. Take into consideration that they're venomous too. Personally I dont like eels or lions in reefs because they can be so clumsy and frags can easily be knocked over.


Any common damsel is hell. They start off cute and tiny and then they get big and ugly and as aggressive as a wolf. You dont want to put yourself through that torture. If you must have damsels, go with something peaceful like the blue/green reef chromis, or the yellowtail damsels are pretty friendly I hear.

Electric flame scallops have a terrible survival record in captivity and should not be bought. They are filter feeders but 99% of the time the tank will not be properly equipped for their survival. They are very unique animals but they do not survive, I would stay away from them. Urchins will plow away the coralline algae in your tank, and they can get big and clumsy as well. Plus I think some species are venomous. Again, not really meant for a reef tank.

UGFs and wet drys are both outdated. In a reef tank you want a protein skimmer as your main filtration. Cannisters wont do anything for you really.

I strongly recommmend doing some serious research and maybe investing in a book or two. MARINE INVERTEBRATES by Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner is the best beginner book on the market. For help with stocking and compatibility pick up a copy of Scott W. Michael's A POCKETEXPERT GUIDE TO MARINE FISHES. These are the bibles of reefkeeping and will guide you every step of the way.

You're making a huge commitment by taking these animals into your home, make sure you do it right.


HTH a bit...


-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Ahh... Sorry if I sounded confusing. I wanted a FOWLR the whole time. Sorry everyone. But what about 1 anenome for clowns? This will be a fish tank but I would like my Cardinals and Clowns to attempt to breed. I hear its not that challening. Can someone give me a tank size for this? Is there anything else that I could/Should pair? Does anyone know about Blue Assessors? My New list is as follows...
Blue Assessor
2 Longfin Cardinal
Flame Angel
2 Ocellaris
Carpenter Wrasse
Yellowhead Jawfish
Firefish
Convict Blenny
Cleaner Shrimp
Random Inverts.

Chris

I'm sorry but you're really missing the point of this...I'll repeat, that successfully raising marine fish babies is NOT AN EASY TASK. You need to be prepared with all sorts of special feedings...I'm telling you, you really need to know what you're doing. You have to set up a tank where they will want to pair off and breed firstly, and you're planning a community tank. Not going to work.

The anenome will need strong lights in order to be able to survive and thrive.

The wrasse and the jawfish both need special sandbeds.

From what I know the blue assessors are a relatively small cute community fish that should do fine.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

I know breeding will not work. I just want a pair. What kind of florescent lighting do you recommend? Also what kind of sandbeds? Can some give me a list of what I should have in amounts of fish and a tank size? Thanks.

Chris

YOU NEED TO DO SOME RESEARCH.

Nobody minds answering questions here but we cant spoon feed you ALL the info! Read the articles on this site and the ones on Reef Central, and you will be amazed at how much you can teach yourself. Buy a book or two like I recommended or go to the library and borrow a few. You're not going to understand anything that goes into making this hobby possible if we act as your crutches every step of the way.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Since you've decided instead to go with a FOWLR, the tank will be a bit simpler and easier to deal with. You won't have to worry about lighting (just get a standard flourescent fixture, you won't want any photosynthetic inverts) or the placement of sessile Cnidarians. Forget about an anemone too, because they need care above and beyond what the typical marine aquarist is prepared for. Most corals are easier to keep alive. Clownfish absolutely do not need anemones to thrive, so do yourself a favor and skip it.

Spawning clownfish and Banggai cardinalfish (presumably your "longfin" cardinals?) isn't very difficult, but raising the fry is much more troublesome. Banggai cardinal fry are probably the easiest of all marine fish young to raise in captivity, but they still create more problems than they're worth to keep alive in a community setting. If really you want to breed fish, do it in separate aquaria.

Pairing a species of common clownfish isn't very difficult. Start by adding two juveniles at the same time. Try to get the smallest and the largest healthy clowns out of the store's stock. The larger fish will probably dominate the smaller and become female, while the other one becomes a male. If the two clowns survive up to this point, they will pair up and become fairly close.

If you want jawfish, you should get a deep sandbed with mixed grain sizes. If you want live sand, I can recommed CaribSea's West Carribbean Reef live sand. It includes both small and larger grains, which allow for solidly-built jawfish tunnels. Jawfish aquariums need at least four inches of sand covering the entire aquarium, so be sure not to skimp if you like them.

Stocking varies greatly depending on tank size, equipment, and livestock choices. Instead of feeding you information based on our suggestions, it would be more helpful if you could tell us what you are prepared to buy as far as the aquarium and equipment. We will be able to help more on stocking from that point, though reading about the critters you're interested in will help you greatly. You don't want us to be your only source of information, because we aren't perfect and we can't cover every aspect of everything. Check out a couple of recently published marine books from your library or buy them online, they'll help tremendously.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Well, I have the Marine Fish book you mentioned earlier. I also read the reefkeeping guide on reefcentral.com I read these both a while ago. I have already researched all these fish. They all are good choices for me, IMO. The Banggai Cardinalk is the same thing. I think the biggest size I would go with is a 55g but what is a good size for the setup below? Could I put at least one of everything and a pair of Banggai and clowns?

And the Final setup...
Blue Assessor
2 Banggai Caridnalfish
Flame Angel
2 Ocellaris
Carpenter Wrasse
Convict Blenny
Yellowhead Jawfish
Firefish

Chris

Nothing less than a seventy-five gallon, minimum. The wrasse, jawfish, and "blenny" all will dig or burrow in the substrate to an extent. The jawfish and "blennies" are critters that are better kept in groups, as they are somewhat social and will interact with each other. Seeing as the "blenny" species hits over a foot long, you're better off losing it.

It's very possible that the clownfish will bother the assessor. Assessors are very passive, and a territorial clown pair could be too much for one. I would drop that fish as well.

Even with that, you're looking at a minimum seventy-five gallon FOWLR setup. A fifty-five would just be overstocked. If you really were reading up on marine stuff, you would be able to tell that. Having read a couple of things "a while ago" won't cut it.

If you feel like you don't want to go through the hassle of doing research, then I think your only remaining option is clear. Send me the money for the tank, equipment, and fish, and I will set it up for you. Once in a while I'll tell you how well everything is going, and I might even sneak in a picture here and there. It's the right thing to do, in fact, it's almost mandatory for the sake of the animals and our sanity.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Nick dont be rediculous, it's obvious the cash should just go towards my new set up which is ridiculously understocked for a nearly 200 gallon system.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Hey, hey, hey no need to be harsh... Answer this one question, How do you tell how much is overstocking? I am not really interested in that option Sirbooks. I really want to keep the Blue Assessor, Should I make it a pair? No Blennies, but why do you keep calling them "Blenny" in quotes? SO the yet again revised list is...

Blue Assessor
2 Banggai Caridnalfish
Flame Angel
2 Ocellaris
Carpenter Wrasse
Yellowhead Jawfish
Firefish

What tank size should I have for all of this? Thanks.

Chris

OK, to start with, the easiest theory in water capacity for fish in a SW setup, is 3 gallons of water per 1 inch of fish at their full grown size. So, in a sense, you can only have 17 inches of full grown size fish. Even if you plan to get smaller sized fish, you need the room for them to grow. And you should do it from the start. This theory should only be aplied to fish of full grown sizes less than 3 inches. In the end, only about 4-5 of those fish you have listed will be good in a 55 gal tank. As you learn more and get more experience, you can then learn the proper setups and amounts of different fish to keep in a tank, using things other than their sizes. Like eating habbits, activity levels and such.

Of your last choices listed, I would suggest the blue assessor, 2 cardinalfish, and 3-4 firefish (as these will not do well at all as loners. they need at least 3 to do well). The jawfish requires a DSB which needs some experience and knowledge to setup accurately (if not done correctly can cause a drastic crash in the cycle killing off all your fish). The Carpenter wrasse will not go good with a DSB if you have LR in it. AS they can cause the LR to tumble. Their name really fits them. And, they get too large for a 55 and really enjoy the company of 3-4 to be comfortable. You can get the clowns if you replace them with some of the other fish I have suggested, but the one that turns into a male could become aggressive towards other fish.

If you are really that serious, as you stated, you should read many more books on the subject. As turning to the Dark Side, requires a lot of know how, and a lot of patience.

And finally, the three number one rules of setting up a SW tank, are PATIENCE, patience, and more patience. BTW, did I mention you need a lot of patience?

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

No Flame Angel or Jawfish? I dont really care about the Wrasse, I just thought that they were benefitial to LR. So you're saying...

Blue Assessor
2 Banggai Caridnalfish
2 Ocellaris
3 Firefish

Is there anyway I could get these setups into a 30g? Maybe no Fires or... Err... This is so aggrivating. I WISH I HAD A BIGGER ROOM! There is no room in my ROOM...

Chris

I would give the clowns a 30 by themselves...do the 55 you said you wanted before.

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish

Well, This is old... So I have new and APPROVED ideas about a tank. These are for a 29g and here they are...

Flame Angel
2 Occelerous Clowns
3 yellowhead Jawfish
Yellow Clown Goby

Thanks.

Chris

That is still over stocked for a 29. The clowns would be find by them selves. When you add the angel you are pushing things. And 3 jaw fish.... well I think you really need to do the research.

"Party it up, Drink it down"