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I was able to recover my log before the mods cleaned up all the posts. Let me restart.

Hello,

I'm Rick and I live down in Houston, TX. I've been silently reading all the logs on FP and learning quite a bit about planted tanks. I've posted on here before, mostly asking questions for my 25. I've decided to try my hand with a planted tank and contribute to the board in the way of another log (while still asking lots of questions ).

However, this log will be a little different than most of the logs here on FP. This tank is only ten gallons so it is much smaller than most logs here and it will be low tech. No pressurized or DIY CO2.

Here is what I know so far:

• 10 Gallons US so it won't have much room for large plants.

• Light hood has two 15W Incandescents. I am replacing with two 10W CF.

• It has a standard AquaTec HOB filter.

Here is what I don't know

• Do I have any other options with screw in CF bulbs than 10W? If I have 20WPG I'm restricted to low lights plant is that OK in a low tech setup?

• I like the look of a sand substrate. Would that be practical or should I use some other substrate on my first go?

• I know plants such as Java Fern, Java Moss, Crypts, and Anubias will all do good in a low light low tech setup. If you know of any other good specimens for me to try, please let me know.

• The aquascape will be the hardest part. I am about as artistic as a board, so please don't hold back. Since this is a low light/tech tank I will need to plant much fuller from the start to get a full look correct?

• If my LFS stores don't have any small pieces of driftwood, does anyone know a reliable place to get some? I would like some driftwood hardscape in the tank.

Sorry for all the questions to start with, but since I am starting from scratch I'd rather save some cash and do this right.

On to the picture. Only one right now but here is a very stunning empty tank!

Pic

Thanks
-Rick

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

LF Posted
Welcome to the log world

It seems like you have a good sense of humor, which is always welcome (I refer to the great shot of an empty 10G ).

On to your questions:

If I have 20WPG I'm restricted to low lights plant is that OK in a low tech setup?

20WPG - I guess you mean 2wpg, right? In any way, I am not a specialist with bulbs that have to fit into an existing hood, sorry about that, but I would say 2wpg should be enough for low light, low tech plants.

Would that be practical or should I use some other substrate on my first go?

Did you see tetratech's 12G log already? He has a sand bottom and the tank looks great. If that is what you want then go for it (more in your plants question).

plants such as Java Fern, Java Moss, Crypts, and Anubias will all do good ...

Yup, and all but maybe the crypts (and maybe they too) will do well in a sand substrate as they don't root in it. Anubias may shoot roots into the sand, but the main part, the rhizome, sits above the sand. Fern and Moss would be tied to hardscape above the substrate.

The aquascape will be the hardest part.

Definately get some wood, skinny branches would be best, as hardscape.

I will need to plant much fuller from the start to get a full look correct?

Not necessairily, but it for sure would help avoiding any major algae outbreaks. In a 10G, not too many plants would be required to achieve a "fully" planted tank.

If my LFS stores don't have any small pieces of driftwood

I actually saw some driftwood today at Petco, believe it or not. I was close to buying a piece, just in case I someday get a small tank. I think it was Malaysian (spelling) driftwood, already very heavy so I assume it was pre-soaked.

Hope this helps a little, have fun,

Ingo

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

GFG Posted
Hi Rick,

Really not a plant expert AT ALL but do have sand, in my 35G they only thing that has stayed alive are some crypts -although the one downstairs in the 12G has grown much more quickly on gravel.

for plants use gravel sand looks lovely but is such a nusiance! I have added gravel to my sand (now the tank looks a mess) to try and help but so far its not worked.

good luck,

GFG

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks LF and GFG,


I have changed my mind already on the sand. I have decided to give Tom Barr's non-CO2 method a shot since you all have had such good results with EI and he does have a degree from UF (Go Gators! ), I figured I would give his non-CO2 method a try.

Since it doesn't involve water changes, I didn't want to do sand as it will show all of the plant gunk that accumulates. I am now leaning towards fluorite as I have that available nearby.

Rick

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

LF Posted
Rick,

Nice, going with the EI for non-CO2 is a good thing, but in this case I will change an earlier statement of mine: You do need a sufficient plant mass for nutrient uptake from the get-go.

And also, most, if not all, of the plants you listed are growing above a substrate and EI or not, it wouldn't matter if you have sand.

And just because Tom Barr went to UF is really not a good argument on why you should try his routine, there are better reasons for that .

But here is a question for you:

Since it doesn't involve water changes

Where does this come from? I don't understand it at all.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

OK I am all caught back up again. I guess it was a bad day to start a log apparently.

On to the comments. First about the water changes. I got this from Tom's non-CO2 article. Here is the quote.

Doing water changes adds CO2 back to a CO2 limited tank.
Plants and algae both can and do adapt to low CO2 environments and induce genes to make enzymes that concentrate CO2 around Rubisco, the CO2 fixing enzyme. When we add the CO2 at higher levels back, this causes the plants and algae to destroy the low CO2 enzymes and start growing without of them since they no longer need them to fix CO2 form the KH ( the -HCO3).
Why keep all this machinery around if you no longer need it? Doing weekly water changes "fools" the plants and helps encourage algae more. Algae are faster to respond to low CO2 than plants.
Once the plants do adapt, they can do well.

Basically doing water changes actually adds CO2 which causes the plants to retool their enzymes opening the door for algae to grow. If you don't change the water the plants adapt and can grow slowly but steadily keeping the door for algae closed. You don't worry about nutrient build up since you are only adding a very small amount of macros and micros and the rest is coming from the fish. It is a more plant centric view on the DW method supposedly. It will be neat to see how it works.

As far as substrate goes, I read a bunch of stuff on the APC site yesterday and I think I got myself thoroughly confused. I have access locally to Flourtie, ADA Amazonia, and Pool Filter sand. I was thinking of using Flourite but APC had a lot of posts complaining how messy it is and how bad it clouds tanks even after a long rinse. Everyone over there was singing the ADA Amazonia praises. Any suggestions on what would be the best? After reading on APC I have to admit I am leaning to the ADA soil.

Thanks


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Rick,

Great Recovery

Glad I don't have to remember what I wrote earlier

Well, good read-up on the Tom Barr Non-CO2 method. My Summary - it scares the hell out of me. The regular EI Method has a lot of parameters that have to be considered and adjusted for the individual tank, the non-CO2 seems to be even more ambiguous.

OK, no water changes, sounds like a plan. What about refills because of loss due to evaporation? And, in this context, what about the ever increasing amount of "stuff" (not a chemist here, so don't ask) that resides in the tank because only H2O evaporates?

Next, you saw that the focus is plants and that fish and fish-food are the nutrient providers. So, how many fish of what species and age needed to "feed" the plants in a specific tank with specific plant needs (some need more than others). In the same context again, how much food of what type and brand is needed to provide the plant food?

Honestly, as much as I am an advocate of his EI method, this one is not for me.

About the substrate: I haven't used either or, so I cannot help. But from what I know, ADA soil is hard to get

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

But from what I know, ADA soil is hard to get

LF - it's available online from aquariumdesigngroup.com. It's a little pricy but I'm going to try it out in a new small tank I'm setting up.

Heard wonderful things about it so it's a good choice, slickrb, especially for asmall tank where you don't need to break the bank to get enough.

If it's available locally though, are you located in TX?

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

it's available online from aquariumdesigngroup.com

Yes, I know that. I recently talked to two guys who have ordered it and expect it to arrive soon or just recieved it, so no experience report yet.

Nevertheless, they order only at certain intervals and not on demand, meaning you have to wait with your tank setup until it is your turn to get some dirt

The guys I mentioned above told me that the aquarium design group is ordering more often now as the demand is constantly growing

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, I know that.

Sorry, should have assumed that. You're more on top of these things than most people on these boards

I didn't know there was an availability issue. I ordered mine on Friday and it shipped yesterday so they must be stocking it pretty well right now.

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Back in the saddle!

I only knew that because it came up during our planted tank round at AF, otherwise I am totally unknowing

I ordered mine on Friday and it shipped yesterday so they must be stocking it pretty well right now.

Well, this way at least I find out about your secret plans Sneaking in a top notch tank, aren't you

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

OK, no water changes, sounds like a plan. What about refills because of loss due to evaporation? And, in this context, what about the ever increasing amount of "stuff" (not a chemist here, so don't ask) that resides in the tank because only H2O evaporates?

I have another tank that I use Distilled water mixed with tap for water changes. So I always have a few gallons of distilled water on hand. I can use that to top off and prevent normal water elements from concentrating.

So, how many fish of what species and age needed to "feed" the plants in a specific tank with specific plant needs (some need more than others).

This is one of the areas from the article where Tom disagrees with Diane. The DW ways says that all you need is well fed fish to sustain plants. Tom does not think this is enough and recommends weekly dosing of a small amount of Macros and Micros. I am planning on dosing KNO3, K2SO4, and some kind of micro solution once a week. Just in a very small amount.

I've never kept a planted tank so I have no idea how this will work, but fortunately this tank cost me 30 bucks so I don't have much to loose. Worse case scenario is I start doing weekly water changes like my other tank.

Nowhere

Yeah, I am in Houston so I can pick it up. I called them today and spoke with Jeff actually (Thought that was kind of cool). He said he usually has some in his warehouse and if I order it online I can pick it up in his store the next day.


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

I always have a few gallons of distilled water on hand. I can use that to top off and prevent normal water elements from concentrating.

And lose your buffer in the process I am not sure about about plant uptake that eats away the GH and KH, but supposedly there is something like this going on. You should keep an eye on that. As I said, I don't think it is not possible, but there are even more unknowns than with the "normal" EI that would drive me insane

I am planning on dosing KNO3, K2SO4, and some kind of micro solution once a week

Fish make up for some of the N and actually produce some P as well, but if you supplement N then you may want to supplement some P as well.

Worse case scenario is I start doing weekly water changes like my other tank.

TRUE

I called them today and spoke with Jeff actually (Thought that was kind of cool). He said he usually has some in his warehouse and if I order it online I can pick it up in his store the next day.

Indeed, this is kind of cool, I agree . Now, when reading their website, all substrates seem to influence the ph. Maybe NowherMan6 can clarify as I think to remember that one does not.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Africana is supposed to be the one that buffers ph up. Amazonia and Malaya have some sort of peat mix in them I think.

called them today and spoke with Jeff actually (Thought that was kind of cool).

if you look at the website in the section about driftwood it says you can actually call Jeff up to discuss a driftwood plan and he'll select pieces for you based on what you say you want. LF, maybe you should have started here a few months back! I think that's pretty cool though.

Rick, I'm actually running a small tank myslf now, and the most important thing is in the set-up process. As LF alluded to in an earlier post, anubias/java fern and other low light plants aren't going to be much for nutrient uptake. It's important to stuff part of the tank with something fast growing. I used pennywort because I like it as a floating plant as well. Mine has a bit more light relative to yours (26 watts over 2.5 gallons) but not too much more, and my main plant choices are similar to yours. It's been up and running for a month or so now and the only algae I've seen is some initial diatoms. When the algae started to show on the glass I wiped it off. When i started to show on the anubias and crypt leaves I added some amano shrimp and they took care of it. Now much of the diatoms on the back glass are disappearing on their own. Easy little tank to take care of. Some Excel every day, a pinch of KNO3 every other day, a little pinch of flourish on off days, just adding top-off water. I really think adding a bunch of pennywort was what kept it from getting out of control though.

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Back in the saddle!

Africana is supposed to be the one that buffers ph up. Amazonia and Malaya have some sort of peat mix in them I think.

based on the ADG site, all are supposed to lower the ph. Rick, when you talked to Jeff, did you by any chance bring up the ph changing issue? Also Africana is a brown substrate



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF,

I hadn't thought about the GH and KH, thanks for pointing that out. I'll have to watch out for that over time. Fortunately, I have some GH/KH test strips I can use.

You're absolutely right regarding the ferts. I think that was a newb mistake . Does KNO3 and KH2PO4 sound better (plus micros of course)? I'm not really sure on the amounts yet and since this is an experiment I figure a lot of it will be trial by error.

Also on the soil, I didn't ask Jeff when I talked to him. I can call him again and ask though. We have pretty hard water down here. I think out of the tap the last time I measured the pH was about 7.5 so if it lowers it a few points I'm not going to worry about it. I'll make sure to test the tap and then test the water after a couple days and post any difference in the KH and pH so we can get an idea what it does.

Nowher,

Thanks for the Pennywort tip.

Any other good suggestions for "Fast Growing" plants that will be OK with 2WPG? More important than fast growing I guess is nutrient hungry plants right?

I'll be placing the order for the soil today and hopefully picking it up today or tomorrow. I'll then start hitting the local LFS to see what plants are available locally. Hopefully I won't have to order online and pay a ton in shipping.

-Rick


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Rick,

Really fast growing, and not too ugly, and easy to trim - Water Sprite followed by Wisteria (prettier but slower to settle and grow) would be my tip.

So you spoke to Jeff again, I guess you two are becoming buddies very soon . Anyway, you say that you don't mind a small drop in ph, but what did he say with regards to "all soils they have drop the ph?" Or did you ask just for your specific soil (which one did you order anyway? ). In that case, call Jeff again and find out for us

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I did ask him about all the soils, not just mine. He said that the difference between the three was mostly cosmetic. Basically they are different colors. He indicated that they all have the pH dropping effect and that the Amazonia is by far the most popular.

I ordered the Amazonia for my tank. All in all I am very happy with them so far. I'm going go to the store and pick up the soil at lunch time. I'll post a picture with the dirt in the tank tonight.


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums

Thanks for the info Rick, it's useful for my new set-up as well.

And by the way, this sure is some fancy dirt (your word) we're using!

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Back in the saddle!

this sure is some fancy dirt (your word) we're using!

Nothing but the best!! It will be perfect for my weeds!


Rick
See all my pictures at Google Web Albums