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Wow you've definately changed my mind on the Carbo Plus system then. It just looked soo simple to me, that's why I liked it. I didn't know that there were any downsides to it.

Thanks a lot for the links and everything. Unfortunately I wont be able to look into things much until I get my computer fixed. (Been using public library computers for the past few days)

Thanks again, tryst, you're the greatest.

Last edited by fishnewbie at 10-Aug-2005 14:44

If your pH is 6.3 your water is probably quite soft. Does it test at pH 6.3 after it has been allowed to stand for a bit or does the pH go up? I highly suggest investing $10 in a GH & KH test kit, you're going to want one to measure CO2. Also if your water is fairly soft you will probably want to supplement the tank with additional Ca (calcium) and Mg (magnesium), your plants will use them up pretty quickly in soft water. If you're adding CO2 you may want to increase the pH of the water a bit as CO2 will lower it even further.

The Zac CO2 system is also known as the Carbo Plus. I haven't used it personally but I doubt I would buy one. There are a lot of mixed reviews for the product, some people swear by it, some people hate it. My own concern is the cost to replace the carbon block, $40 every few months is a lot! In the long run a pressurized system is much cheaper. Additionally, the output of CO2 isn't as good as would be desired according to what I've read, about 10 ppm at best and in a large tank even less. Also if you have soft water it will eat away at your hardness and soften it even more, not something you want happening. From what I've heard from other hobbyists it's much better to just go pressurized, it gives you much more control over your CO2, costs less in the long run and you'll get more CO2 out of it. For $150 you should be able to get a pressurized system that you will probably be a lot happier with.

I have a link if you want to read more:

[link=http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/electrolysis.html]http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/electrolysis.html" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]

and another:

[link=http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=1926&highlight=carbo-plus]http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=1926&highlight=carbo-plus" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]

If you do a search of that last site, the general consensus seems to be that pressurized is much better.

Was there a specific attribute of the carbo plus system that you liked/were drawn to?

Thanks again for the very informative post!

My well water has a pH of about 6.3. Not sure about the KH though...Pretty sure it's soft though.

Those dry ferts look good. I'll be getting a CO2 system soon as well. (thinking about getting the new Zac CO2 system. It uses blocks of carbon instead of pressurized gas)

Again thanks for all your help!

Last edited by fishnewbie at 09-Aug-2005 16:38

Dosing a fert that is not needed is going to create an excess of one nutrient and too little of another. The plants will have enough of one nutrient to grow faster but not enough of others. That will only end up with a deficiency of another kind.

No, this isn't true either. With new school methods you dose enough of EVERYTHING for the plants to give them the upper hand. You never have deficiencies because your fert program is balanced to provide a perfect growing environment for the plants. As long as your plants are doing well, algae is not an issue. You dose consistently and regularly, small amounts every single day even, with a good balance of macro and micronutrients that your plants need in order to thrive. I strongly urge you to do some of your own reading and try it yourself. In just 20 days of using EI methods on my 10 I have some of the healthiest plants I have ever seen in my own tanks. If you want to see long term results, check out Bensaf's tank, it looks great and won the last aquascaping contest, the plants are extremely healthy.

To keep a tank balanced I would rather dose as the plants run out of something than start dosing before it's needed and create an imbalance of nutrients. Adding flourish to my tank before the plants need it will grow algae but if I wait and watch for signs of deficiency then start dosing what's needed right away I will know how much I need to keep the tank balanced. I'm not looking for the fastest growth possible out of my plants. I really don't see a point in that. I'm only looking for a tank that the plants grow and the algae doesn't.

Flourish is not a complete product, it is a good source of micronutrients and *some* potassium but does not provide all of the nutrients your plants need in order to thrive. By only dosing Flourish - one product - you are going to create an imbalance by creating an overabundance of certain nutrients and not enough of others. Like I said above, a good fert program is balanced and provides everything. Adding an incomplete product is not a good point of reference.

Additionally, why wait until you have signs of deficiency? If you dose consistently and properly, deficiency is never an issue. Like I said above, Flourish alone is not a good point of reference because it is mainly a source of micronutrients, that's all (excellent product but no bottle fert is ever complete and balanced - not that you would want it to be because every tank is different). Of course you are going to see algae if that is the only thing you're dosing, you aren't giving your plants what they need to match that level of uptake. This is where algae moves in to take advantage of conditions that do not properly favour your plants.

A good dosing program isn't about growth rate at all when you look at the bigger picture, you can have extremely fast growth with really unhealthy plants and a ton of algae. The idea is to have what everybody with planted tanks wants as far a I know, the healthiest plants possible. The plants show no signs of deficiency, you don't have any algae, growth rate is optimized for the conditions in your tanks, everything looks amazing and your tank runs like a well oiled machine. Above all of that it makes planted tanks and healthy plants simple. Walking a tightrope between algae and nutrient deficient plants is a thing of the past, there is no reason for it.

Instead of making assumptions about the way different methods work, do your own research and try them out. I have used the older method of limiting nutrients to combat algae in the past too and was never really satisfied with it, my own experience so far dictates that EI specifically works a lot better. It's much easier on me because I don't have to worry that if I add a few extra ppm of NO3 or whatever I'm going to have a huge mess to deal with later. And even if I forget to dose for a few days my plants have some stored nutrients so they aren't going to suffer much. To me it is very satisfying, I'm not tearing my hair out trying to have healthy plants and prevent algae at the same time, it just works.

Now to get back to the specific questions and the purpose of the thread:

Sorry about the cyano thing... I had always thought it was because of HIGH nitrates... Guess not, lol. Cut back on the water changes maybe? I need to learn a lot more about plants...

Don't worry about it. We all need to learn more! That's what this hobby is about for me anyway. Instead of cutting back on water changes I would start dosing KNO3, depending on how often you are doing water changes now. As far as getting ahold of KNO3 goes, I will address that a few lines down. To get rid of the cyano you have now, you can black the tank out for a few days and start dosing KNO3 to about 10-20 ppm. Erythromycin or maracyn also works but in order for that to be effective you need to correct the situation that caused the bloom in the first place so it won't return on you - increase nitrate.

And also, I just got an extra 130 watts a couple days ago.((Used to only have 170 watts. Replaced my 40 watt strip with the 130 watt)). Hope that doesn't change what you said about all the problems being nutrient related. Sorry for not including that before.

That's fine, the plants you listed would be ok at 170 watts, I grow them in about 1 wpg. They grow slowly but they do fine. If you were seeing those problems at 170W then what I said about nutrition still stands.

Sorry I don't have any test kits... my mom thinks I don't need them. "You can just get it at the store for free!"...

That's ok. In that case you'll want to check out the Estimative Index (EI) because test kits are really not required. The only ones I would say are absolute must haves if you're going to add CO2 are a pH test kit and a KH test kit so you can figure out how much CO2 you're injecting. That's all really. With EI you do large water changes frequently so you have quite a bit of "give" as far as numbers go. Here's a link: [link=http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1]http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]

If I'm going to be getting CO2 what brand of product do you recommend me getting? Where'd you get yours?

I keep smaller tanks so I use DIY CO2 injection with yeast but that really isn't practical for a tank the size of yours. You'd be looking at a pressurized system, it would be a good idea to make another post to ask about those because there are a lot of different options available.

Just have a regular gravel substrate... I know I should've gotten a fertilized substrate now.

That's ok too. You can give the plants everything they need by dosing the water column, if you like you can also add some simple root tabs near the base of your heavy root feeders (like swords) but you don't have to.

Your stocking list looks good, except that I am not sure about the BGK. They can eat smaller fish when they get bigger if I remember correctly. Not too sure because I'm not all that familiar with them.

I'll try to get some ferts soon.. And a some test kits!

BTW, what kind of dry ferts should I buy? I honestly have no clue, except I think they need iron... Where did you get yours?

I bought mine from [link=http://www.gregwatson.com]http://www.gregwatson.com" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]. The ferts I bought were a pound each of:

KNO3 - Potassium Nitrate (Potassium, Nitrogen)
KH2PO4 - Mono Potassium Phosphate (mostly Phosphorus)
K2SO4 - Potassium Sulfate (Potassium)
Plantex CSM+B with extra Iron (trace/micronutrients)

That gives you a good mix of macro and micronutrients, sources of potassium, nitrogen, phosphorus, Iron and all of the other trace elements the plants need. It sounds complicated but it really isn't, with some help with figuring how much to dose it's really just a matter of "add ___ tsp. of ___ every ___ days" if you want to keep it as simple as posible.

The order came to $16.35 USD plus shipping, because I am in Canada shipping was a bit more for me than it would be for you but the grand total was about $30 USD.

If shopping online isn't an option it is possible to get th chemicals locally, just requires a bit more digging and the prices (in my area anyway) aren't as good. To get the full line of seachem products in a comparable quantity will cost you a lot more but they are still good.

If you went with the flourish line, I would get:

Flourish (trace/micronutrients)
Flourish Potassium
Flourish Nitrogen
Flourish Phosphorus

If you can't get your CO2 system right away, I would actually reduce light to 170 W again if that is an option (even go down to 130 and just have 1 of the fixtures running), pick up some flourish excel and use that as a source of carbon for now until you do get the CO2 up and running. At almost 3 watts per gallon (wpg) it's really important to get that CO2 on there ASAP or you will continue to have problems with algae.

Sorry about the long post - lots of questions

One other thing I need to ask - how is your tap water? Do you know the pH and hardness (KH, GH) ? You mentioned it's a well so I'm guessing you have liquid rock.

This just isn't true. It was previously believed that limiting nutrients prevents algae blooms but this notion has been disproven. "New school" works much better, you give the plants everything they need, sometimes even in slight excess and your plants outcompete the algae for you. 2 good methods that mean absolutely no algae when they are used properly are the "Estimative Index" (Tom Barr - this one is better for newbies IMO, minimal testing) and Perpetual Preservation System. Google both of them, do a bit of research (the reading can be a bit heavy but the basic ideas and priciples are pretty straight forward, plus once you get everything running properly it doesn't take much work from you at all).

Dosing a fert that is not needed is going to create an excess of one nutrient and too little of another. The plants will have enough of one nutrient to grow faster but not enough of others. That will only end up with a deficiency of another kind. To keep a tank balanced I would rather dose as the plants run out of something than start dosing before it's needed and create an imbalance of nutrients. Adding flourish to my tank before the plants need it will grow algae but if I wait and watch for signs of deficiency then start dosing what's needed right away I will know how much I need to keep the tank balanced. I'm not looking for the fastest growth possible out of my plants. I really don't see a point in that. I'm only looking for a tank that the plants grow and the algae doesn't.

Thanks so much for the greatly detailed response!

Sorry about the cyano thing... I had always thought it was because of HIGH nitrates... Guess not, lol. Cut back on the water changes maybe? I need to learn a lot more about plants...

And also, I just got an extra 130 watts a couple days ago.((Used to only have 170 watts. Replaced my 40 watt strip with the 130 watt)). Hope that doesn't change what you said about all the problems being nutrient related. Sorry for not including that before.

Man these plants really need some nutrients then...

Sorry I don't have any test kits... my mom thinks I don't need them. "You can just get it at the store for free!"...

If I'm going to be getting CO2 what brand of product do you recommend me getting? Where'd you get yours?

Just have a regular gravel substrate... I know I should've gotten a fertilized substrate now.

Here's how the tank is stocked:
7 zebra danios
6 congo tetras
1 BN pleco
1 female guppy
2 Angels
1 German Ram
1 Black ghost knife

Not overstocked (not yet anyway, heh)
See THIS thread for future stocking.

Thanks again for al your help.
I'll try to get some ferts soon.. And a some test kits!

BTW, what kind of dry ferts should I buy? I honestly have no clue, except I think they need iron... Where did you get yours?

Last edited by fishnewbie at 07-Aug-2005 01:37

Your lighting should be fine, you can grow almost anything with that. Your problem here is a lack of nutrition, not light! So:

1) Already answered, you can grow almost anything with that much light. It's not low, it's actually moderate-high.

2)Like I said almost anything, moneywort would be fine, there are a ton of foreground plants that would work, check out [link=http://www.tropica.dk]http://www.tropica.dk" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]. You will be ok as long as you correct the nutrient deficiencies.

3) I would definitely recommend CO2 on this tank. Severely limiting CO2 on a higher light tank leads to problems like the ones you are seeing. Black Brush Algae is a very good indicator that your plants need more carbon. On a tank that size you will want to go with pressurized CO2. Right now you have about 3-4 ppm CO2 in there, it would be ideal to get it up to between 20-30 ppm, maybe even a bit more than that.

4)I personally recommend dry ferts. They are much cheaper than commercial preparations, they are easier to use than you would think and you can tailor how much of each nutrient you are adding. You can't get that kind of control with store bought mixes. If you want to make it really really simple and don't mind paying more then the Seachem Flourish line is also good, I like them but prefer buying dry. Instead of just excel though, I would get the whole line. Nitrogen, Potassium, etc.

I'm hoping to get more nitrate suckers to prevent this cyano and algae I'm getting. I already have a water sprite floating, perhaps I'll get another to grow in the gravel...

Cyanobacteria is actually a sign of LOW nitrate. Have you tested it in the tank? I'd be willing to bet you don't have enough! Most planted tanks actually need to be dosed nitrate regularly because it bottoms out really quickly as the plants consume it. Dosing nitrate is easy, just pick up some "Green Light" stump remover from a gardening centre or another source of pure KNO3 and make sure your nitrate never drops below 5-10 ppm. I usually like to keep mine around 15-20 ppm.

Don't add fertilizers unless your plants show a deficiency or you'll grow a nice crop of algae.

This just isn't true. It was previously believed that limiting nutrients prevents algae blooms but this notion has been disproven. "New school" works much better, you give the plants everything they need, sometimes even in slight excess and your plants outcompete the algae for you. 2 good methods that mean absolutely no algae when they are used properly are the "Estimative Index" (Tom Barr - this one is better for newbies IMO, minimal testing) and Perpetual Preservation System. Google both of them, do a bit of research (the reading can be a bit heavy but the basic ideas and priciples are pretty straight forward, plus once you get everything running properly it doesn't take much work from you at all).

I've also got a thin bit of black hair algae on the edges of plants, wires and rocks. I think this is a nitrate issue from my well water.... That, plus the cyanobacteria that keeps appearing makes me think it's either nitrates or phosphorus...Probably just nitrates.

If I got enough plants do you think the problem would stop, or would I need a product like Phos-X? (removes both phosphorus and nitrates)

No, as I said above your problem is actually a lack of nutrition. Why would you want to remove the nutrients your plants need to grow and be healthy? A lot of what you read on the net is very outdated. Apply some common sense here, if you create an environment in your tank that is favourable to the plants they will thank you by growing well and limiting algae for you. On my high light tank I am dosing 15 ppm of NO3 every 2 days for the plants according to new school methods and let me tell you I don't have a single spot of cyanobacteria. I also dose quite a bit of phosphate, as do other members of the board. I don't have algae in my tank.....none at all.

Black beard/brush algae is a common sign of low CO2/carbon. Excel may help you a bit but you will get much better results with added CO2. It will increase the growth and uptake of your plants but what's wrong with that? Right now I would say you have an excess of light, deficiencies in most nutrients and this is what is causing your algae issues. When things get out of balance in a planted tank we start seeing the things you are, plants with deficiencies, algae blooms, etc.

If you don't want to add CO2 then I would recommend decreasing the amount of light you have to about 2 wpg or a bit less and going with a "natural" non CO2 approach. Your plants will grow much slower but it will also mean less maintenance and you won't need to dose much at all. As it stands now, you're going to have to start feeding those plants a lot more to match your lighting. You're also going to want to add more plants.

So a few questions I have:

What are your numbers for PO4 and NO3 in the tank? Have you tested them?

What substrate do you have?

How heavily stocked is the tank?

WOW that link helped a lot! Thanks!

It looks like I'll definately be needing ferts! Mine plants showed many of the symptoms of many deficancies... Could also be becasue of the low light, but I still think I'll use Flourish Excel. Already have a small bottle of that anyway.

That 4 leaf clover plant looks interesting too.

I've also got a thin bit of black hair algae on the edges of plants, wires and rocks. I think this is a nitrate issue from my well water.... That, plus the cyanobacteria that keeps appearing makes me think it's either nitrates or phosphorus...Probably just nitrates.

If I got enough plants do you think the problem would stop, or would I need a product like Phos-X? (removes both phosphorus and nitrates)


Last edited by fishnewbie at 06-Aug-2005 00:32

You can grow most plants but I wouldn't try for some of the highest light ones. I added another 80w to my 90g with 2 reg fluorescent bulbs. Not much added space needed or heat produced but gives you slightly under 4wpg. Your current plants though would be fine at that light level.

My favorite extremely adaptable foreground plant is aquatic 4 leaf clover(Marsilea crenata). It will grow in low to high light, soft or hard water, and with or without co2. In higher light it makes a great foreground plant because it grows short with 4 leaves per stem. The lower the light the taller it grows and it gets 1 leaf per stem looking sort of like glosso. In between it grows 1-4leaves and of varying height depending on exact conditions. It's not the fastest growing plant but once established it can spread it's runners fast enough to cover the area you want without taking over the whole tank.

co2 is not necessary but really helps keep higher light tanks balanced. When you go over 2wpg you can start to have algae issues if the plants aren't growing fast enough and at that level co2 is what limits plant growth. That doesn't mean you need alot of co2. I've kept my 4wpg 55g tank balanced by adding not even enough to lower the ph on the tank. Without that tiny bit of co2 I get tons of spot algae. Another option is to add liquid flourish excel. It's not as good as co2 but does help plant growth and slows the growth of some algae.

Don't add fertilizers unless your plants show a deficiency or you'll grow a nice crop of algae. A good site to look up deficiencies is [link=http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm]http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]. I normally use seachem's flourish products when needed but what brand of fertilizer you chose is mostly opinion. Also what works in one tank may not work in another.