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One point I forgot to mention. Give the diffusers a day or so to settle in. They tend to produce bigger bubbles then you want for a few hours then settle down to a fine mist. Some of the bubbles are so small you can barely see them even with your nose pressed against the glass. The smaller the bubble the easier they dissolve.

Paulus,
No got mine right here in Jakarta. There's a wide range to choose from. Mine is Dynmax. Cost was Rp75,000 ($7.5). Small Taiwanese Boyu ones are available for as little as Rp25,000 ($2.5). The plastic Azoo type run about Rp60,000.
I've tried a few different types (so cheap I bought a few to "play" with). All seem to work just as well. I liked the glass as they had a bigger ceramic disc, the Dynmax and Boyu are identical in design but the Dynmax just seemed to have a better build quality.

Nowhere,
Yep just attach the Co2 to the diffuser. The gas pressure does the rest. Actually you don't want the gas hitting the disc too fast or strong as it will just shoot thru the disc. The longer it takes to get thru the disc the finer the bubbles. This is why filling them with water is important.
They should work well with a HOB just put them under the current from the water coming down, should keep the bubbles in there long. A powerhead with a spraybar pointing at the diffuser will work fine too.
The current is added bonus to spread the bubbles around and have them hit the plant leaves for optimum efficiency. They'll work by just putting them in the deepest darkest part of the tank. Most of the bubbles will get caught in the plants anyway.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Cheers Bensaf,

the problem im having with the hagen (diy co2) setup is consistancy of the bubbles, the size of them seems to change daily.

Hopefully this would be able to stop this problem.
Ive checked out that thread regarding using he rio power head. It seems quite simple, however i dont think that we can be rio equipment in the U.K can any recommned any other ones which will work in a similar manner.

Thanks

Bensaf,

As you know I've placed a micro airstone into my intake. I cut a small section of the strainer away and the airstone sets right inside the strainer. Bascially invisible.

You make a good case for using the glass diffusor and that price I'm going to give one a try. The diffusor itself looks like a piece of art (unless it's just good photography) At this point I enjoy the experimentation more than anything.

So far after about 3 weeks I see no down side to having it setup the way it is. (I can't prove the GW was caused by a bacteria kill, probably more likely from slower plantgrow/mass-related issues as discussed) My ph and kh is very stable at 6.3/6.6 and 3, so I would like to see the difference the glass diffusor will make at the same values but with tiny bubbles as opposed to the co2 enriched water that comes out of my spraybar directed at a 45 degree angle toward the plants.

Thanks for all your insight.



Last edited by tetratech at 09-Dec-2005 22:01

My Scapes

Paddy,

Never tried it but I've heard the glass diffusers do work for DIY Co2 type set ups (which the Hagen basically is). I'd imagine if there's enough pressure to push a bubble through the ladder it'll be enough for the glass diffuser.

You should also check out Tom's Powerhead method here http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/66921.html?200512080951. It'll be ideal for such a co2 set up.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf, I had thought of the same thing later on yesterday when actually looking at my tank. Part of me worries that some of the mist would be sucked up by the filter intake and it would gas off as it comes out back into the tank, but i think if I put it far enough away and low enough it shouldn't be a problem. Just placed an order for one

It's cheap enough, I figure it's worth a shot. I'm curious to see what my tank looks like without the big rio pump/ reactor set up in there

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Back in the saddle!

Hi Bensaf,

would you recommend purchasing one of these to use on one of the Hagen CO2 kits?

For anybody in the UK,
www.aquaessentials.co.uk are selling some of these glass difusers for a decent price.

Paddy

Feel better now you've got that off your chest Tom ?]

At the end of the day, most hobbyists do not care if the why is correct, they want to see results.

Well I'd be definately one of those. I've seen some of the discussions about your mist method that got way out of hand. I really don't care if the bubble that makes it to the surface has turned to nitrogen, hydrogen or 12 year old malt, I want to know if it works or not. If it works that's fine by me, I don't need or want a scientific thesis on why works.

A lot of plant geeks like to rabbit on in pseudo science speak and dream up ever new and wonderful theories on why something will or won't work. That's scares a lot of new people away from the hobby at times. And perpetuates the "myths".

Lets face it , it's not nuclear physics we're dealing with here. A few basic pieces of knowledge, decent equipment and a solid method and it's actually pretty easy.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I've done this actually for decades as far as the mist method.
We all sat around and wondered why the damn thing waste gas it seems like but we have obviously better growth.

The internal venturi reactor, anyone can try it and try it against any reactor out there for ease of use. But it does waste gas, the external one's I've made for years don't, 100%. But I've found most folks do better using the internal venturi's over the years.

Greg has 2 small ones on his 180 gal tank, you can see clearly the plants neartest to the mist grow better, this is not some fly by night observation, to heck with all the folks that want to quote me this or that without looking at their plants and trying it.

I think overall, all you need to do with a HOB filter is place it under the outflow.

The tank size I've really worked mostly with over the years is a standard 20 gal, but I have 350gal and larger systems, I've made several cO2 reactors for public aquriums, around 2000 gallons. You need better distribution or multiple diffusers, even Amano does this, but for large tanks with good flow the Aquatic eco super Point Four cannot be beat, 55$ and they will drive a 400 gal tank if you use good flow patterns. Maybe more. Takes 25psi to drive them, but they sit on the bottom and out of the way, last forever and easier to clean(you simply sand the top slightly).

I've noticed that the plants always do much better wherever that mist is in tanks for over 10 years now. I just thought why that might be a couple of months ago.

I got poo pooed good before, so it will nto be the first time. The plants do better and you can see it. So if nothing is occuring as some claim, we must be all blind.

At the end of the day, most hobbyists do not care if the why is correct, they want to see results.

The problem with naysayers, they have never offered a reason to why the DO levels are higher, nor why the plant growth and pearlign has increased so much. It's not just some other gas, it's pearling. I really do not need to prove it, I prefer using the plants as the "phytometer" for my measurement, works better than wacky theoretical physic with some many assumptions that bog everyone down.

Relative growth rates and DO levels are far more useful and relevant to botany.

I can see those bumpo up when the mist is blasted aroyund, the amount of CO2 is still the same.

Disc users have known that blasting the gas around improves their tanks, that is nothing new either.

But why else would the plants grow so much better? Nothing else would cuase the plants to grow and produce that much O2 other than CO2, the ppm in the water as measured by pH and KH does not account for the difference, so I proposed the mist gas phase idea to speed uptake and CO2 saturation.

It makes sense because little else does.
I still need to do some Gas Chromatograph work to get the anayl;sis of what the gas build up is precisely and to see what % the CO2 is I have. The vendor told me 99.98%.

I also have used O2 pure extensively.
It's very stubborn to dissolve.

"Rant mode on"
I've had few folks discuss things towards a solution to the observation as to why, I've had plenty of trolls, I am not wasting my time with them further. Solve the issue, put out some ideas and solutions. Arm Chair aqurist that want to claim they are the cat's meow and then sit on their hinies, get no respect from me. Rant over:-)

This discussion and method has helped quite a few folks, that banter? It's helped no one, it never will.


Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


Last edited by Adam at 09-Dec-2005 05:12

Thanks, Bernard! Another item to add to the trip's growing shopping list.

To think someone here was trying to sell me a glass diffuser (but much cheaper looking than yours, probably Chinese/Taiwanese made) for A$40 (plus shipping) a few months ago! ]

-P

Ever since I've been injecting Co2 I've been using of one type or another to diffuse the gas. I've never been really happy with any of them. They did the job well enough but not always as consiistent or as efficient as I would like. The main issue was consistentcy. I found they couldn't keep up with dissolving the amount of gas that was needed and this would lead to a build up of gas in the reactor and then they would cease to function entirely. Flow rates would also drop for various reasons.

After Tom Barr's "Co2 Revelations" post I decided to have another look at Glass diffusers.

Researching them I found what I now feel to be a lot of "myths"-
They're only good for small tanks/ inefficient/the gas just rises to the top.Some discussions on different forums got downright nasty with people arguing about why they would and wouldn't work. One thing I did noticed those that were biased against them hadn't tried them, those that had tried them liked them.

Thought I'd give one a shot.

Result? Love them. Beats the reactors on almost every level.

- More efficient and more constant
- Needs less gas going in to get the same ppm level of Co2 in the water.
-Smaller only about 15% the size of a reactor and powerhead, so much easier to hide.
- Passive, don't need a powerhead so one more socket available for something else.
-Much more attractive, the glass ones a real nice, the plastic Azoo types not so attractive but just as easy to hide. It's the one piece of equipment I wouldn't mind being visible. If Amano is happy with having them visible that's good enough for me.
-Price. Very cheap Expect to pay $15 at most. Aquabotnic is now selling them for $8. You just can't go wrong with a price like that. Even cheaper then the powerhead to run a reactor. Why bother of the fuss of messing about DIY gravel vac monstrosities when you can get a really nice piece of kit for $8 ?

They do need some care to get the best out of them. Here are a few tips for doing just that.
- Put them down low in the back next to a filter outlet or powerhead spray. For best results use Tom's reccomendation of having the spray bar vertical and pointto the diffuser and back of the tank. The more bubbles hit the plants the better. The plant leaves also help keep the co2 in the water longer.
- Handle them carefully, they are glass therefore somewhat delicate. Actually the first one I bought I manage to break while unwrapping it. Held the package upside down and it fell on the table. I learned from that and bought 2 in case I managed to break one again.But really they are no problem as long as you handle them like you would any other piece of glass.
- Fill them with water. This may sound obvious but it's not (at least it wasn't to me). I thought the water was just to act as a bubble counter and has I alreay had one I thought "why bother?". Actually the water is important to slow the flow of the gas plus they have a build in guide to make sure the bubble hits the centre of the ceramic disc. This is important as a slow release of glass evenly spread across the disc gives the finest bubbles. BTW the fact that also act as a bubble counter is another cost saver.
Filling them with water may sound easy but it's actually pretty tricky. The only way the water will go in is through the co2 inlet, then it's abugger to the water into the main chamber. A trick I found to work was to fill the inlet stem with water and then attach the Co2 tubing and then give a quick blast of gas , this pushes the water into the main chamber. Do this a few times and the chamber will be full.
- For similar reasons as above make sure it's straight when attached to tank glass. Otherwise the gas only hits part of the disc and you get bigger bubbles and less efficiency.
- Keep them clean. The disc will get dirt and algae on it. This will effect the performance of the ceramic disc and produce bigger bubbles. Easy to solve just let them soak in a 505 bleach solution for about 10minutes. Rinse well and then soak in some de-chlor for another 10mins. The disc is as good as new. Once every couple of weeks should do fine.

Yep, definately love these little diffusers. Levels good and steady. pH solidily where I won't it to be. Plants have definately improved in the few weeks I've been using these. Noticably so.

Highly reccomended

bensaf attached this image:


Last edited by bensaf at 08-Dec-2005 08:00[/font]

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I don't know about the makers of the diffuser that Bernard has, but the one I bought clearly says that for extra large tanks (such as yours, Ingo) two diffusers, one on each side, are necessary.

Well Bensaf,

What a lovely and detailed explanation you gave about your diffuser. And what a lovely looking tank you have (no, I am not trying to suck up to you ).

It all sounds very seductive and might just give it a try. Having the biggest tank of us all (at least from the usual suspects that post in our plant threads) it will be interesting to see if it works here as well.

Tom – what tank sizes did you use when establishing your theorem? Did you see less efficiency with larger tanks than smaller ones?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the info, Bensaf.

I definetely want to give one a try, especially considerng I'm one of those with the gravel vac monstrosities - except mine is in a smallish tank, so it sticks out even more.

So basically you just hook the CO2 line right up to it and the pressure of the gas does all the work?

Also, I'm not clear on how you would get the bubble to spread around more. I understand that if you have a cannsiter filter you would place the diffuser down low near the outflow, but what do you (or others) think would be the best way to make this work with a HOB filter?

Keep the inspiring/ depressing tank pics coming

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Back in the saddle!

I also have a glass diffuser for a few months now (Well Bensaf, you already know that...) and I agree with everything that was written here. I was also trying to find some information about them before buying my first and read some bad reviews and I really don't understand where they're coming from. mine has worked a treat and have saved me a lot on CO2 as well. The only downside is that you have to clean them, but that's not a bid deal at all. When upgrading to a bigger tank lately I just got a bigger version of the one I already had. They're more expensive here in Britain, of course, but they're worth every quid.

The Sweetwater diffuser stones at www.aquaticeco.com are 1.70$ and every bit as good as the disc method of diffuser stones.

Here's the link:
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/9751/cid/2328

even thew small one will drive a 75-100 gallon tank if you blast the mist around.

I think one very salient issue was pointed out: those that have tried are very happy, those that have not, well, they will never know till they try it.

The same mind set was common when I suggested using PO4 dosing many years ago and the change is about the same or more.

For 1.70$ (You can certainly find many things on that site!!), it's hard to beat. Unlike many of the disc, the sweetwater stones can be used with DIY easily.
I like the Azoo and some Chinese brands that have appeared and are very small(tiny! 20-30$), the RedSea one is also not bad either(about 15-18$).

Aquaforest in SF sells some nice stuff and ADA stuff also. They use nothing but mist diffusers.
I've not seen a better LFS in terms of planted displays, save one in Japan

The AGa event this year will be here in the Bay area, so folks can come to that and see the AF store also as well as 2 other planted aquarium stores, Albany and Ocean aquarium.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

I'm still running my external reactor on my smallish(38G) tank to save room on the inside, but if I ever get disgruntled with it, I may try one of those guys out. So far I've had plenty of success keeping the CO2 levels a bit too high but I haven't tried my luck on a big tank yet.

The tank is looking great bensaf, as always.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Cool, thanks for that review Mr. B! I guess I know which diffuser I'll try first when I finally get around to injecting CO2. Which brand is yours? Did you get it in S'pore?

Oh, and nice-looking tank too! :88)


Last edited by upikabu at 08-Dec-2005 08:15

Last edited by upikabu at 08-Dec-2005 08:16

-P

Partly as proof and partly just to show off here's ashot of the tank taken 5 mins ago after running the diffuser for 2 weeks.

bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.