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Good point. There's definitely a calculation here (plant mass by wpg) but the problem is there are too many variables like filteration, fish load, types of plants, etc)

My Scapes

Good point. There's definitely a calculation here (plant mass by wpg) but the problem is there are too many variables like filteration, fish load, types of plants, etc). Your shellie tank probably has very light plant mass so the 1.5 is enough to give it some algae. I have 1.1 12g setup and I'm getting some algae on the glass.

My Scapes

Nowherman- I thought I've read that somewhere too, but I'm not sure that my tetras would come to the surface and gasp even if they were having trouble. I lowered the bubble count a little just in case.

What Iron concentration should you be getting from the TMG? When did you start with this dosing regiment?

I was just trusting what Tom recommended and was dosing my Kents at 8mls. I'm a bit rusty on the calculations to figure out what the concentration is there.

As a note, TMG has only .07% Fe, whereas Kents has .24% Fe. It's to my thinking that I may be radically overdosing the iron. Maybe I'll just break down and get some TMG and follow their lead.

Tetratech- I do believe that you would get algae in a clean tank with high light, but I also want to believe that with the plants added there should be no place for algae, unless something is amiss for the algae to grab ahold of.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

It's to my thinking that I may be radically overdosing the iron

That is what I am thinking might be the culprit, but I have no proof and my Iron test kit sucks.

Ingo

EDIT: besides any tank related issue, it puzzles me why sometimes threads here are not updated in the forum summary. Even after pushing refresh on all possible levels, yours currently shows 5 pages and the last entry as of 11 AM this morning.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 07-Dec-2005 12:34

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah, I noticed that too LF. I erased all the cookies and everything too, and that didn't work.

I think I'm going to Full dose the N, half the PO4(PO4 in the tap), and only go 2mls 3x a week of micros. Then I'll adjust from there. I know for a fact that my PO4 test kit is good (known quantities), and right now it reads at over 3ppm in my tank, it might be higher than that, but the test kit only goes that high.

Bensaf is definitely going to be angry with me]


I forgot to tell you when I started the dosing in my last post. I started 2 days before I got the light(I wanted good levels of nutrients in my tank when the light went on it), and I got the light about 4 days ago. So about 6 days. I noticed the algae the day after I got the lights on.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 07-Dec-2005 12:49

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Bensaf is definitely going to be angry with me

No - he is going to wait until we will find out that this was not the problem and then he is going to say:

I told you so



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

There's an interesting feature that's been running in TFH magazine by Amano. I don't know if any of you guys get the mag or have been reading it, but in the latest issue (Jan'06) Amano discusses plant nutrition. Here are a few lines. It sounds very anti-EI:

"When fish are kept in an aquarium set up with nutrient substrates, nitrogen and phosphorus may become excessive. Nitrogen and phosphorous are also nutrients required by algae" The condition in which the body of water becomes enriched by dissolved nutrients is called eutrophication. When water becomes eutrophic, algae tend to flourish"

So forget about adding po4 and n03, he's talking about excess just from fish waste.

Here's another:

"In constrast to the nitrogen and phosphorus, which is rarely depleted from the substrate and can build up in an aquarium, postassium and trace elements can become limited. Potassium is a nutrient that aquatic plants require in large amounts along with nitrogen and phosphorus and is esstential for healthly plant growth. The trace elements, such as iron and managanse, are also essential for plant growth, but they are required in only minute amounts."

He's saying here the no3 and po4 are rarely depleted. Is he talking about tanks with his power sand (or whatever it's called)






My Scapes

"When fish are kept in an aquarium set up with nutrient substrates,

Set up with nutrient substrates I would take to mean his Powersand, Tourmaline, BC and other stuff he uses. Need to be careful when considering Amano and what he does. Generally he's talking about his own situation and his own products and methods. Even then he's quite vague about nutrients. He's a businessman as well as a 'scaper. He sells a line of products and he's not going to tell us too much about those products anymore then Coca Cola are going to make their recipe public.

His methods work , no doubt, but it's all or nothing. If you use his methods you pretty much have to use his product line in it's entirety , you can't pick and choose or mix and match. We don't really know what's in his substrates but can assume that's it's a got a lot of Nitrate and Phosphate so he maybe doesn't need to use it.

I don't think he's knocking EI. In fact what he's doing is pretty the same, making sure all the nutrients are there all the time. He's just getting them in there in a different way.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well I decided to do an emergency water change on my tank of slightly over 50% to bring down the levels of PO4 and maybe the iron as well. Previous to the water change I had been noticing green hairlike algae all over the plants and glass. I thoroughly cleaned the glass to see if any new algae would be growing back. After the water change I dosed only the KNO3 and yesterday added 2 mls of trace. So far so good, as there is less visible algae on the plants and there is no new algae on the glass.

I guess what I take from this is that I'll borrow some parts of the EI, but mostly just make my own recipe. I'll be dosing about 2ppm(in my tank) of KNO3 every other day, K2SO4 at the same ammount, and 2mls of trace every other day. I may dose .5ppm of PO4 once a week. I'll adjust from this if I notice any lack of growth/nutrients.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I passed the 1 year mark(a bit anticlimatic, I know). Not much else to say other than I've still got a bit of algae, but things have continued well, and filled in quite a bit. The algae has died back quite a bit since I cut the PO4 regimen and did a few large water changes to dilute it. I also cut the lighting way back, I only use 1 62watt bulb and a 20watt bulb for 10hrs a day. I'll be bumping that up once I feel the algae's gone for good.

Well here's a pic(day381)...sorry it was overexposed a bit:


Last edited by mattyboombatty at 07-Jan-2006 12:41[/font]

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Hi Matty,

Looking nice, but could look better .

I know I am the last one to tell a pro what to do (my 125G currently looks like 2 tanks ), but I will try anyways:

- Just minor, but the heater should be hidden better, maybe behind the Bacopa or the Ludwigia.
- Overall I think there are too many too similar leafed plants in the back. How about some other leav types to break it up a little? Or some other color (I know the Ludwigia is reddish, but it doesn’t show in the pic)?
- Are you planning on leaving a gap between the Bacopa and the Ludwigia? That could be nice, but it should curve more towards the middle of the tank rather than to the left side. If you leave the gap, maybe you could plant it with Glosso. That would give the tank some depth, I think.
- The Tenellus will grow equally soon, but right now I would have liked the taller ones to the right and the shorter ones to the left (just reversed).
- I drew an image to what I think could be done. Yellow lines mean the outline of the height of the left and right group. Green lines mean how far to the front these groups should go. The left group could be the Bacopa in the back and the Anubias (if that is the plant in the gap there) in the front. The right group could have Ludwigia and Rotala in the back, and the ferns and Tenellus in the front. The gap itself would be Glosso.

I hope it helps in some way,

Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Day 274, Oct 1:

Cleared out a ton of plants and sold them to my LFS again. Made $15 this time. The tenellus was choking itself out, and the hygro was overshadowing the rest of the tank. I took out about 15 tenellus and 20 or so stems of hygro. I also took about 10 stems of rotala indica. everything was in great shape....and now the lower portions of the tank is getting some light again.

I've been dosing more nitrate due to the absence of my angels. Since I upped the dosing of potassium a few weeks ago, I can really tell the difference in rate of growth and overall health of the plants. That was definitely the major missing nutrient.

I seem to have hit a good stride with the tank and probably won't be making many more changes except to phase out some more of the hygro with the bacopa and ludwiggia.

With that said, I think I will graciously bow out(this thread) for a while as I don't think there is much interest anymore. Hopefully this has been a guide for some people to create and maintain a healthy system with live plants. If so then I am definitely happy with my time spent on posting this log.

Chronology:















and finally today's pic:
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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

You have by far not reached your retirement age .

Just keep it going and people will respond. You might want to try to get the early pics back up and running.

One thing you can keep us posted about is the next step when you will attempt to modify your tank so that is fits one of the classic Aquascaping Themes, like the triangular layout. Or - maybe you can even show us how we would create our own style.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Sorry, I was unaware that the previous pics were not working....they will be back up asap. And I think I'll make a poll....see what others think about it.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well i've only skimmed through this post, as i'm at work but i will definately be reading it properly again, as i think it will be a great help...

Thank you!

Wow, that is some chronology. Plants look really happy.
In that last group of pictures what is the difference in time between the last pic and the one right above it. Is there an actual difference in the lighting on the tank or is that just the way you took the pic. Sorry if you've answered this already earlier on.

My Scapes

Thanks

I think I had changed the exposure time on my camera. However I took the floating riccia out (hate floaters) so there's probably more light getting into the tank too. I haven't changed the fixtures or bulbs though.

Oh and the time difference was 10 days I think.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 16-Oct-2005 14:25

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I guess this is my mandatory monthly update(as requested by Little_Fish).

I have removed the last traces of the green hygro. I think my tank has been feeling the effects of lack of plant growth/mass. I've noticed a bit of beard algae on old growth and some extra green spot on the glass. Nothing that I'm worrying about too much, but I think I have fixed by jamming some more plants(trimmings) into some open floor space. Dosing and CO2 remain constant since I last upped the KNO3 and the K2SO4(3?).

Eventually I will be pulling out the rubin sword, even though I really like that plant. I should have listened to Bensaf's advice about how big they get. It's just kinda messing up the attempt at aquascaping. I'm going to put this off for however long I can though. When I do decide to take it out I'm going to put a fresh substrate in. Might as well do it right I guess.

So here's the pics:

day 290(before trims and water change:

day 290 after:

day 302:

day 311(today) :

Some macro shots from topside:


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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Very nice Matty,

I am glad you obey my order to give us monthly updates

About the macro shots: good job, very clear pics. Are these Narrow Leaf Ludwigia and Bacopa?

And I have a question about your small foreground plant on the right (Dwarf Sag or Pygmy Chain Sword?): It appears as you are thinning out this group once in a while as there were more of them in older pictures. Why do you do that?

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 07-Nov-2005 14:18

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Narrow and broadleaf ludwiggia, and bacopa, yes.

When I first got the chain sword I let them do their own thing for a while. They ended up choking themselves out, and algae insued. So now I thin them out every few months, much to the benefit of the plants. They grow bigger and much healthier. Plus I take them to my lfs for $$ and they disappear the very same day I bring them in....I guess they are nice plants huh?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

dude thats amazing
well done

SP

Interesting facts about the Chain Swords.

Mine in my 29G haven’t been thinned ever since I placed them in their current position about 6 months ago. I only remove “extension” plantings that grow into other plants or too close to the glass. They grow very dense and as such are the best hiding place young fry can have (so I have always Platy babies ), but they seem to thrive and no algae has been seen (but it is a non-CO2 tank).

I am also considering giving plants to the LFS, but not yet.

So, what kind of a macro lens are you using there? As you might know, I got a new camera and I am looking for add-ons .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I just have a Nikon coolpix 2100. I forget what it's macro is. It's nothing special though. I've just learned how to use it well and I take a lot of pictures and get a few good ones.

I'm going to be rescaping tomorrow because I have a day off. I bought some new flourite to replace the old stuff, and I'll be looking around for some cool rocks or driftwood to put in the tank. I think my lfs will probably give me $10-15 for my rubin sword. I'm not looking forward to the process though.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Well I completely rescaped my tank. I took out the sword that was just too big, and added a new piece of driftwood. Let me know what you think aquascaping wise. It needs to fill in quite a bit so in a caouple months I might be at where I intended.

Day 318:



Last edited by mattyboombatty at 14-Nov-2005 12:19[/font]

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

In the left side, I'm going to just have the bacopa go from tall in the back to short in the front. From above it will look like a triangle. In the middle back, I will have the ludwigia at a medium height, just a little above the driftwood/java fern maybe sloping from right(tall) to left(short) to follow the shape of the driftwood. There is a short piece of driftwoodbehind the chain sword. This has java fern which needs to grow in a bit before it has a nice effect. On the very right I will have a big tall bush of rotala being the tallest point in the tank. In front of that I have the crypts which will fill in the middle ground between the rotala and chain sword.

Any thoughts on how I can make it better would be appreciated!

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

And here's the pic of my CO2 tank/regulator that I promised a while back.

mattyboombatty attached this image:


Last edited by mattyboombatty at 21-Sep-2005 21:00[/font]

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Thanks LF

<---definitely no aquascaping expert

Glosso won't grow in my tank....and plant's won't have much color either(remember medium light). But I like the lines you drew...it was kinda what I was thinking too. I think I'll keep that spot open in the middle like you said. Maybe I'll let the tenellus creep back through there, or let the anubias continue to grow to the front.

Overall I think there are too many too similar leafed plants in the back. How about some other leav types to break it up a little? Or some other color (I know the Ludwigia is reddish, but it doesn’t show in the pic)?

Any suggestions for medium light plants? I'm willing to give things a shot. I've tried some different things but usually don't like them or they don't grow well. Like the myriophyllum, rotala macranda...etc. I also want to keep it simple, with just a few stem plants. One more would be the most I'd want in there. If I like something though, I'd be willing to swap something else out. I guess I should just bite the bullet and get more light... then I can grow glosso and all the nice red plants.

The heater is going to be wherever I don't have plants...out in the open. Otherwise it takes up too much space, and I can't plant the tank the way I want it. I'll just take it out for pics from now on.

Anyways do you like it better than the last scape? Is it already an improvement(that I can continue to improve upon with everybody's help)? Or should I try again?

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

Hey, I am no expert on aquascaping either. You know at least as much as I do.

Letting the Tenellus grow in the open “street” sounds like a good idea to me. It would be even better if the back of the substrate is about 2 to 3 inches elevated so it grows uphill, giving it even more depth perspective.

Is your tank better now than before? I would think so, as for one thing it looks about twice as big. Also, it is way more organized, but that could be because you just planted it and the last pictures before the change where from a well established arrangement.

About what medium plants to add to bread up the small leaves scheme? That is a hard one. Although commonly not too popular with “advanced” aquarists, I would suggest Pennywort. I just love it (so does the wife ), it is easy to grow and doesn’t require high light. Its broad leaves and water roots would look nice when ranking through the finer leaved plants. Not too much though, maybe 2 or 3 stems for the whole tank max.

Ingo


PS: And off course you have to get high light and the whole nine yards

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey matty,

Your tank looks great

A few comments - you noted that on the left side you planned on letting the bacopa(?) grow in flow low to high, front to back. Maybe try adding a few rocks in front of them in the foreground, just to add a little depth and to cover up the gangly parts of the stems. Nothing huge, just something to divert your eyes away from those parts of the plants.

Also, what plant(s?) is this in the circled area below? It's kind of right in the center, so, to me anyway, my eye goes right for it. If you cleaned it up a little, giveit a trim and see if it'll grow in a little denser, I think it'll do wonders for the tank. Right now it seems like, though the stems are healthy, they're a little too loosely planted and a little too stringy looking to have as much effect as they could. Other than that, great job!





NowherMan6 attached this image:

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Back in the saddle!

Matty,

Visi-therm has a stealth version of their heater in all black. I think you have a black background. The heaters like $14 at Big Als. Get that heater and you'll barely see it.

Group you stem plants as tight as you could and add some driftwood poking thru in different spots. It would hightight each plant better and IMO would look really good.



My Scapes

It would be even better if the back of the substrate is about 2 to 3 inches elevated so it grows uphill, giving it even more depth perspective.

I'll try this....is there a better place for my anubias then?

I would suggest Pennywort.

I'll look around for it...I don't think I've seen it in my lfs before.

PS: And off course you have to get high light and the whole nine yards

I've got the whole nine yards(CO2 and ferts)...except for the high light.

Maybe try adding a few rocks in front of them in the foreground, just to add a little depth and to cover up the gangly parts of the stems.

Just some round river rocks? I should be able to find some of those.

Also, what plant(s?) is this in the circled area below? It's kind of right in the center, so, to me anyway, my eye goes right for it. If you cleaned it up a little, giveit a trim and see if it'll grow in a little denser, I think it'll do wonders for the tank

Yeah, that's the idea. It was in the outflow of my fluval so it was growing sideways and gangly. Hopefully it will straighten out where it is now. Oh and that is the ludwigia.

Visi-therm has a stealth version of their heater in all black. I think you have a black background. The heaters like $14 at Big Als. Get that heater and you'll barely see it.

I'll think about it, but I'm on a tight budget....so pulling it out of the tank sounds like the cheaper plan. I'll keep it in mind though for the future, it sounds neat.

Group you stem plants as tight as you could and add some driftwood poking thru in different spots. It would hightight each plant better and IMO would look really good.

If I can find some small peices of driftwood I might do that, I think that's a good suggestion. I just have to make sure not to use up too much "floor" space. and I'll be tryting to group the plants a bit tighter/fuller when i get some growth and trimmings I'll replant that until it fills out.


Thanks guys, that gives me a number of things to work on. It should keep me busy for the next few weeks.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I'll try this....is there a better place for my anubias then?

How about right in front of the left plant group, not all the way upfront, more a little to the right and back. This way it would be shaded (is an Anubias Nana or similar, right? ) and the lower parts of the stems would be hidden.

PS: And off course you have to get high light and the whole nine yards

That was a joke, no it wasn’t, yes it was .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Just some round river rocks? I should be able to find some of those.

Well, a little bigger than regular river rocks, maybe somthing and inch or 2 inches high, just enough to cover the bottom gangly looking parts of the stem plants

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Back in the saddle!

Matty you are in desperate need of more driftwood to:

1. Separate plants into groups
2. Hide lower stems
3. Compliment the piece you already have

IMHO of course

My Scapes

Hi Matty,

Wow, your tank looks a lot like my 23g (especially since I took out the big piece of bogwood on the left a couple of days ago). I would recommend filling the space between the bacopa & ludwigia (i.e. in front of the heater) with Hypgrophila Corymbosa/Siamensis (here the common name is Blue Stricta). It's the tall plant to the left of my ludwigia. It requires low light (I have some growing at less than 1wpg) and it makes a nice space filler with its broad leaves. I think it would also make a nice contrast against the bacopa & ludwigia. Anyways, just my 2c.

Nice tank BTW!

-P

Welp, here goes....

I decided to go with more lighting. One of my coworkers is moving and needs to sell their 30" dual 65W coralife lunar light fixture. This will definitely put me into the high light range. I think the lighting has been the major factor in my planting frustrations - I can't plant tightly because i have a deep tank and there's no light at the bottom, and I can't get any color. I should be getting the fixture sometime this week. So here's hoping I don't get an algae outbreak.

I haven't really changed anything other than a little trimming and a water change, but I have some pics anyways.

A shot of the nana and foreground angled from above:

Day 341 full tank shot:

A small splash of color:



As for the aquascaping, I've temporarily put everything on hold until the end of the week, I think. I appreciate your suggestions and will definitely work on finding some more hardscape(tetratech & nowherman), and will work on shaping the plants and their formations(LF), and will try to find another grouping of plants(upikabu, and your tank is very lovely as wel )....maybe the corymbosa, I don't want any stems with such large leaves though. I might try out a new type of crypt in the front right, or something new with color once I get my new lights.

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 27-Nov-2005 20:52[/font][/font][/font]

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

130W - how nice

Are you ready for the additional pruning time with all the growth you will get?

Can you control the individual PCs separately? I would suggest to start off with maybe 3 hours for the second light and to expand it slowly if no negative effects (algae) are occurring.

How about a nice red plant? Rotala Macandra (wonders where he has seen that plant before – ah my tank log on page 24 ) comes to mind as I really like how red it is.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Are you ready for the additional pruning time with all the growth you will get?

I'd be surprised if I get a TON more growth, because I get a lot now, but it is always kinda scraggly. I think with the extra light, I'll have a little more growth, but the growth will be a lot fuller too. Mostly I just want my plants to finally look good(like yours).

Can you control the individual PCs separately? I would suggest to start off with maybe 3 hours for the second light and to expand it slowly if no negative effects (algae) are occurring.

Yes, they can be controlled seperately, but I will need to get a new timer. I was thinking a little more than 3 hours...maybe 5-6 because the rest of the time there is only 65 watts over the tank. What do you think?

How about a nice red plant? Rotala Macandra (wonders where he has seen that plant before – ah my tank log on page 24 ) comes to mind as I really like how red it is.

I've seen it and I love it, I'd love to get something with that much color in my tank. It's always been so green, now I have a TON of options....I'm kinda thinking about the red myriophyllum too because I know the lfs gets it in pretty frequently. And glosso too.....

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Matty,

I would still say to start off with maybe 3 hours for the second light and to expand it slowly if no negative effects (algae) are occurring.

65W should still give you almost 2wpg, that is not bad in itself. I have 192W over 125G for most of the day, normally that would not even qualify for medium light plants. I started off with about 8 hours of double light which was way too much, and you know my algae issues. Now, for the longest, I had 3 hours and just last week expanded to 4.

Better save than sorry.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Definitely agree with LF. Lighting IMO is the single biggest contributor to Algae. Even the smallest unmeasurable trace of nh3 will promote algae with high light. People also forget that decaying leaves, etc also produce nh3 not just fish.

My Scapes