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Ok, this is the thread where the experienced really get to share their secrets. Long winded replies are welcome. And, - to anyone who is annoyed with them.

I've got some heavy plans for the future - if not this spring then next spring - for a long, large tank that is fully planted, sculpted and aquascaped. "Breathtaking" is my goal.

One area that really has me bouncing in different directions is substrate.

Anyone with a planted tank is welcome to comment, but I'm most especially interested in those who have been doing this for many years and tried different things. I'd like to hear your experience on different substrates - what worked well, what didn't and why. Feel free to include discussion of any peripheral thing that went along with the substrate issue.

Please include your background on how long you have been doing planted tanks and any pics would be wonderful.

I like the look of sand, but I'm leary of it because every now and then, I like to go to the glass with gravel vacs. Maybe I need to reconsider that by planting in such a way as to have the roots take care of it. I also labor with wanting to use a single substrate like Eco-Complete, for consistency. I guess I'd like to hear from Sand proponents as to how long it can look nice and not mix into lower layers.

My project will be a year or two in the planning so I want to soak up what I can now.

Have fun

Diane

Last edited by Cory_Di at 23-Jan-2005 12:15

Last edited by Cory_Di at 23-Jan-2005 12:16

Hi Diane,

My tank is 4' x 2' x 2' with about 2" garden topsoil (no manure or fertilsers) topped with about 2" pea size gravel.

No C02 or fertiliser although occasionally I'll add Flourish Excel.

I did initially think of putting in a sculptured divider to make the back section deeper but decided not to as the deeper rooted plants also tend to grow taller and I would have been sacrificing tank depth. Instead I planted the taller plants to the rear and curved them towards the front at each side outwards.

I bought a large variety of plants and let them sort themselves out. (Some do better with others than other types).

My planted tank was set up in August 2004.

Set up:
* Placed soil & about 1" gravel into tank, added wood & rock where I thought good;
* Added enough water to cover the gravel by about 3";
* Next day picked up my plants (checked what day the order
was due before adding the water to the tank);
* Planted all plants, added another 1" gravel and let settle for about and hour or so.
* Syphoned off the murky water and filled tank with fresh water, turned on filter & heaters.
* Started water checks from that day. Tank's ammonia had gone & 0 Nitrite/0 Nitrate was recorded by the end of the week.
* Added fish then with no losses, and also some burrowing snails to keep the substrate aerated.

Maintenance:
* 50% water change weekly due to fish stock. I use a gravel vac, but only lightly run over the top of the gravel, not deep into it.
* Weekly and Fortnightly pruning of plants or when otherwise necessary.
* Feed fish 2x daily with slightly more than absolutely necessary every 2nd day (this gives all the fertiliser the plants need.

Algae:
Initially it was a problem (esp after I added some val from our back dam, and have not fully eradicated that, though I found that by using lights with more green/yellow wavelength helped get rid of a lot of it. When I added the blue/red wavelength the algae took hold again, so I now use 4 fluro tubes: 2 x 40W Triphosphors & 2 x 36W Cool Whites (ordinary household fluros). Last weekend changed one of the Cool Whites for a 36W Corallife Aqua glo to the front for aesthetic value (Will let you know if this has any effect on the plants or not).

Hope you get your tank as you visulise it too Nothing like a conversation piece for a dinner party as a beautiful tank

BTW, my water is super soft (we are on rainwater tanks, no town water connected to our place) so I have oyster shells and volcanic rock in my filter to help.

Regards,
Deb




In wildness, nature is not human-hearted!

I feel onyx sand + mulm + a dusting of ground peat works best. I like the heaviness if onyx, this makes replanting and pruning easy, EC is light, adding the mulm(detritus that settles on the bottom of a bucket and filter sponge squeezings) adds what is missing from a seasoned substrate, bacteria and organic food/matter for them to live off of till the tank gets going after a month or 2.

Peat reduces the substrate till the bacteria take over that role and then the peat verty slowly decomposes and provides some carbon for the bacteria to use, not much is added and will not make a mess when you replant.

Sand is cheap, you can add mulm, RFUG's, cables, laterite, kitty litter, peat, soil, etc to it.

You can try all these, I have.
It'll take you a few years

EC is decent, but light weight like profile/MPV turface/Schultz's aquatic plant soil, and ADA's substrates. Flora base is similar to the ADA stuff, IMO, it turns to mush after a year.
Flourite is larger than onyx, it does well and is heavy.

These are the main products out there.
You should add mulm and peat to most any substrate.

You can also use old compressed peat, called leonardite, available at hydropnics places in place of peat or in addition to it.

It'll last longer and resist breakdown more.

If you'd like to know about biogeochemistry and those processes in wetlands soils, there are 2 articles in TAG from the AGA on it with Nitrogen.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Hi Diane,

Well I've been doing these for a long time now, and the only thing that is sure is that every tank is different and reacts different to even the same conditions.

I've tried every graver and substrate there is, from the really cheap to the really expensive and "professional" ones. Here is the out come:

First a good tip would be NOT to use a platform filter, I do realize this is like a Duh! tip, but believe me I've heard of many that do and the results are not nice at all. First if you plant heavy "rooters" like crypts, swords, even valls, the roots manage to get down and tangled on the platform, causing the roots to rot, plants dyeing and almost for sure taking all the live beings in the ride.

Once said that here is a list of the substrates vales used:

Crystal rock (obsidian): These substrate looks awesome, it’s way easy to clean since nothing gets stuck on it, in fact I still love it, but I stopped using it because of many factors, the first one was that since it's a crystal rock, it isn't a good host for bacteria, so the fish waste and left over food, became a real problem causing PH rises.

Crushed marble assorted colors: This is, at least here, one of the most used substrates in the hobby, since we have lot's of it. so it's always available in all LFS and in all kinds of colors, it looks good and it comes from really fine to chunky, for looks is a great substrate, and maybe for keeping hard water fish, but it's defiantly not good for planted tanks, at least not for heavy ones. First reason would be that marble almost always contains lime veins in it, so that adds a lot of calcium to the tank, needless to say, plants hate it because it takes out the Oxygen from the water, some plants do love this substrate, for example valls and swords, but IME those are the only ones.

Pea gravel: IME this is the best substrate you can get, and I have to main reasons, one is because in fact it doesn't adds minerals to the water, I mean no FE no CA and no Potassium. Why is these good, when we hobbyists are always looking for substrates that are loaded with at least Iron? Well, simple, because you can control the nutrient load of the tank, by adding ferts and in these way you can avoid any algae problem, since light is always a coin flip, the most control you can have is if you control the nutrients of the tank.

Being a "neutral" substrate you can enrich it in very simple ways, even adding the trace elements that your special variety of plant need. These days a simple Iron tablet will work wonders on a neutral substrate vs.. a very rich substrate that can get out of control if light and nutrient elements are not controlled in the water column.

IME it's easier to control the substrate nutrients than the light.

You can find it in almost any particle size you want, or you can even have it made the size you want if you crush it yourself or have a professional do it, from really big and chunky to really fine and almost sand looking.

It's true, it does not come in really great colors, but if you are thinking of a "breathtaking tank" for sure you will be thinking on a carpet plant, so that will take care of the color problem.

Fourite, Eco-complete And Professional Substrates:
I've used them and I've trashed them, the reason is that sometimes they are so rich, and the light is so good, that what you come up ending if you are not careful is a really uncontrollable algae problem. I know that many here will say that is the best thing since sliced bread, and maybe for them it is. My experience in my tanks and in clients tanks even more so, is that a minor neglect of the tank conditions and BAM! all sorts of algae, which becomes time and patience consuming to get rid off.

Colors are good, but not great, some just look like plain brown gravel or peat or black, not much for a decorative scheme in my opinion, they are expensive and difficult to care for, like vacuuming, doing water changes always afraid to stir them up and end of with a clouded tank for weeks or even ending with your plants so covered with dust that the leaves will start dieing.

Sand: Here we have lots of different kinds of sand, and I mean colors, since we have lots of volcanoes, so you can get it in black, gold, brown, red, etc. also grain size varies from really fine to medium. I like using sand every now and then, specially if I want colors to show, but you have to be sure to add snails that burry and steer the sand, vacuuming is almost impossible and you can end up with anaerobic bacteria which are death traps both for plants and fish.

I don't really like snails, so I'm not a fan of them so I don't use it very often, what also helps are FW clams. This is also important because it it gets to tight it can crush the plant roots.

These are all the substrates I have experience with, as you can tell I would definitely go with fine pea gravel. Hope it helps you.

I appreciate you all taking time to write such detailed posts. Exactly the kind of feedback I want to sift through.

Keep them coming.....

Falstaf, see:
http://www.acquariofacile.it/forum/default.asp

Having done controlled test on Flourite, sand, laterite substrate, RFUG's, they are in no way assocaited directly with algae. Algae live in the water column, not the substrate.

If you add things like jobes sticks, anything with NH4 or urea, those are directly related to algae blooms if they are allowed to leech into the water column, these are very repeatable test to perform.

When referring to richness of a substrate, Flourite, is some what poor and so is Eco Complete. You can view a detailed chemical analysis done by a professional lab on the APD. A number of common substrate were anaylzed.

RFUG's, can and do work very well, as well as any pea gravel/sand. It does not work as well as flourite and onyx sand though...........
The issue of the plates can easily be avoided by using a simple CPVC pipe grid and use a series of pipes with holes drilled in them. This way plant roots can go all the way to the bottom and never clog the flow. Any sized grain can be uised, even very fine sand and the substrate will not clogged becuase the prefilter water is coming up in reverse.

"Fourite, Eco-complete And Professional Substrates:
I've used them and I've trashed them, the reason is that sometimes they are so rich, and the light is so good, that what you come up ending if you are not careful is a really uncontrollable algae problem."

That's not the substrate's fault though. How does light become better with these substrates?
If you control the water column's increased nutrient uptake, then you will not have that issue.
Algae live in the water column(most of the one's that bug us), if you control the water column, you control the algae.

CO2 and low NO3 are about 90% of folk's problems with algae in CO2 enriched tanks.

They main problem with these substrates: their initial cost.

The same thing can be said for Gas tank CO2 as well.

You can have a plant tank without them, but it's easier to use them and have better growth and faster growth....but that's not everyone's goal.
Many want a low mainteance tank and let things be, non CO2 methods are very sutiable for that approach and goal.
Growers, gardeners and pruners like faster growth, they generally use CO2 and dose inorganic nutrients.

Algae is caused by a reason, there is nothing in flourite or the other substrates that will induce algae in a controlled experiment(eg dosing Fe at high levels to a planted tank that is other wise in good shape).

If something caused problems, it's not the substrate's fault(unless you have NH4./Urea based materials in it and uproot it into the water column). I can easily add 10 mls of TMG or Floruish to my tank and not get any algae, I will waste this trace...but I will not induce algae if they other nutrients are in a good range.

What happens is that many folks blame iron or the substrate for algae when it's a lack of something else as rule.

If you control the NO3, PO4, K, traces, GH, and CO2 in good ranges, the algae will not do well.

This is not hard to do, the CO2 is perhaps the hardest to set and maintain for most folks.

The porosity and iron are key elements to the grains in a good substrate. The porosity allows both aerobic bacteria on the outside of each grain to help cycle waste and the internal anaerobic regions allow bacterial mediated reduction to occur to transform metals into their reduced state to help facilitate plant uptake. Plant roots can do this as wel, but it helps if the bacteria and the plants help eachother. I like a heavy weight dense substrate.

When you prune and uproot, the grain anaerobic bacteria are protected inside from the O2. If you use a non porous substrate, the anaerobic bacteria are only protected in the deeper layers and are more influenced by plant root's zones and O2.

So each grain is a "functional unit", it's own little bacterial colony that is protected from disturbance(us digging around in there).

I've used plain sand or RFUG for close to 10 years and also have had flourite longer than anyone almost. I did not like it at first either. A client wanted to try it. The color bugged me. Everyone that's used it over the years has liked it though. But as you said, I planted the substrate to hide the gravel.

If you are having problems with it, you migth want to figure out why you issues. Many people have issuies with CO2, some figure it out, some don't care and trash CO2 and say non CO2 methods are the way.

I've always said do both methods and figure why you had trouble.

If you do not seek more than you already know and have mastered, you do not grow.

" I know that many here will say that is the best thing since sliced bread, and maybe for them it is."

It's a useful tool, but I can live without it just fine.
But the tanks do better with it over time.

" My experience in my tanks and in clients tanks even more so, is that a minor neglect of the tank conditions and BAM! all sorts of algae, which becomes time and patience consuming to get rid off."

There are a few simple reasons for algae.
They are bioindicators.They respond fast, the plants tend to be slower, so we can use the algae to help add things to grow the plants better before they start showing signs of problems. I have client tanks as well, I have for 10 years now. They all have flourite or onyx sand.

Algae issues are seperate from this thread, but I can look at a tank and see what algae is present and know precisely what is causing an algae.

There are some very simple ways to deal with algae as well. CO2(the hard part if you use it) and nutrients (the easy part).

Dosing is rather easy and water changes will re set the tank each week. You do not need a test kit even. Just for CO2(pH/KH/ and also GH/tap water initially). If a client wants a high light CO2 enriched tank, they need to understand it will take weekly routines and dosing 2 to 3x a week. That can slowed down by slowing down the light, that's the main thing that will drive the growth of both algae and plants. Some lower mainteance client tanks get only a weekly dose and use much less light and certain plants that are easier to care for.

You can use non CO2 methods with these products also.
Generally, the less light, the less CO2, less nutrients that are present in the water column, the more a substrate will play a significant role as a nutrient source.
Alternatively, you can dose just to the water column alone and not add any nutrients to the substrate and be very successful as well.

Doing both will provide the largest success.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Got a link to that analysis? I'd like to see it and I'm not sure what APD is

I thought Eco-Complete would be good because of the way it allows the smaller pieces to break down where roots would favor it. No?

Hi Tom,

Thanks for all the detailed explanation about fluorite, but I never said it had to do anything with algae, I do know that algae derives from the water column and not from the substrate, and with enriched I was referring not only to fluorite, but to many special substrates they sell for planted aquariums, like in fact eco complete and plant grower bed, who in fact DO release more than trace elements but nutrients into the water column. and if you are not careful (periodical water changes), it can cause an algae problem.

I would also like to point out that I never said that substrate relates to lighting, I just meant that the combination of both with a poor water column quality will cause an algae problem.

Yes, some translocation out of the substrate will occur, but that can also bwe said for the plant's themselves, they leech out a substantial amount of nutrients.
If you consider the substrate, that should also be considered.

I've found no correlation with high trace element levels and algae, I regularly add 5mls of TMG, Flourish, you pick the brand, per 20 gal and I can do it every day and have excellent plant health with zero algae bloom/induced growth.

The main issue is NH4, if you have a fair amount, and it gets into the water column it will causes lots of problems.

Main problem many had in the past was doing a controlled test to isolate things to see what caused algae and what caused good plant growth.

If you play around with only one variable, say PO4, then you'll find adding it does not cause algae.

But in order to do that, the other nutrients need to be in good shape as well as CO2.

Substrate water column interactions are an area of interest of mine.
You can read about the Nitrogen cycle in AquaPlanta & Reef Art published by Luca there in Milan.

The last 2 issues have a two part series and has a nice diagram on N flux in/out of the sediment

Cory:

Here's Jamie's work:

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9908/msg00033.html

also:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9908/msg00369.html

MPV turface is light weight and a solid color like EC.
But it's 8-12$ for 50lbs.

You will do well with EC, you'll just need to be a little easy on the uprooting planting.

Each substrate has a trade off, whether those mean something to you or not is often personal and subjective.

Improving the water column will help either way and every plant species there is so that's a good area of focus as well.

The APD has been around for a very long time on the web, that and USENET are the two oldest things floating around about aquatic weeds. Heck, I could not type back then even.
I lurked for a long time. Doesn't seem like nearly 11 years.

Most of the folks that posted are now lurking or no longer active. The SFBAAPS club is still active and some old timers still come to that, the AGA is a good place to meet a bunch of plant nerds also, we are going to have it this year in Monterey, CA this Nov. If you want to see the aquatic plants in nature, I do a plant fest each year in Florida. You are the one swimming around in the plants there:-)

Enjoy.

Regards,
Tom Barr












Last edited by plantbrain at 30-Jan-2005 06:06

Hi,

I'm not really as experienced as the posters on this thread, but since I have some experts talking here I'd like to ask a question or two if I can.

1. I have a 46 gallon South American tank with eco-complete. My lighting is a USA Current 96w x 2. I have alot of java moss on the bottom I also have wisteria and java fern (all mid to low light). My fish include: 2 Angels, 3 rams, school of rummys, cards, otos, 4 dwarf plecos.

My main problem is algae that gets stuck to the plants.
I do 20% water change weekly, vacumm gravel. Lights are timed for 10 hrs/day. Now here's the thing, the light was originally for saltwater (10,000k and Acintic, but I did buy a new bulb and replaced the acintic with a 6700k.) In order to lessen the algae problem, am I better off using just the 6700k bulb, just the 10000k bulb thus reducing my lighting to 96w total. I actually like the acintic bulb at night, but I was told it doesn't do anything for the plants. Which combination or single bulb would be best.

Thanks in advance for any experienced response.





My Scapes

You need to say how big your tank is, 2x 96 watts can be a lot on 40 gal or not that much of a 125.
Do you use CO2?

Regards,
Tom Barr

Plantbrain,

Thanks for your response. I did say my tank was a 46g bowfront S.A. setup.

Thanks again for any info.


My Scapes

The current 4' planted has a substrate with a lower layer of vermiculite (boiled up until it no longer floated) mixed with a potting loam - not compost, more of a topsoil consistancy. This was placed on the tank bottom to a depth of around 1-1/2", with a 1" layer of silica sand on the top.
I did consider mixing some fertilizer in with the loam mix, but was wary of this as the ferts would probable leech quickly into the water column, causing problems. I don't think I can provide much of an in-depth discussion on my substrate as Tom Barr, Falstaff et al, but the tank has been running now since mid-December - here is a shot of it to show the growth. Most of the right hand side was around half its current height to begin with.

I do have one question though - how do the planted tank keepers keep an accurate count of their fish!

x



Last edited by malaikah at 05-Feb-2005 12:11

Second picture attempt:



Malaikah attached this image: