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Untitled,

I only have aquasafe dechlorinated. I did put sack of activated carbon in my cansister filter. I swear, I'm done with diy co2. Both problems I had this year can be traced back to yeast co2 concoction. I'm trying to determine if the leaching of the yeast into my tank has been the source of my brown sludge and evil slimy thing.

My Scapes

Use some cheapy Zeolite to remove the NH4, and big water change, like 80%.

Crank the CO2.

Now, go after the slime algae, vacuum it up, fluff it off and suck it out.

Use a diatom if you or a friend has one. UV etc. Fluff the slime daily till it goes away.

In the meantime, keep a good routine going on the plants and CO2/dosing etc, but you can do more than a singhle weekly water change, you can do as many as you want, 50% 80% etc, this will harass the algae good and also reset the tank and let you dose whatever you want.

It's alot of work for a week or two but then once your over the hump, then you can take it easy.

This works for most algae and other issues plant tanks might have.

Or......" this is your penance my child for thy sins against plant kind....."

You can also try a 3 day blackout.



Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

Plantbrain and Bensaf
Well thanks for the info, but this was going from bad to worse. All the fish were removed and I tried adding alot of carbon to my eheim but it didn't even put a dent in the cloud. In addition I had done three 50% water changes. My entire room smelled like a pub with warm beer on the floor. This was still reacting very strongly within the tank.

All plants have been removed as well, since I couldn't see them and I fiqured that probably wasn't good.

As I watched my tank go up in smoke (see pic of big white cloud) I thought it a fitting end to my diy co2 era, since later that day a package arrived from Greg Watson and the next package will be my pressurized system.

My Scapes

Bensaf where you've been hiding. Did FP give you a vacation day. Well I think you've earned it.

Anyway, now that the only thing that is in my tank is the eco-complete.

Bensaf, I don't know if this sound off the wall, but if the yeast brew was seeping into my tank, wouldn't that be killing off some good germs and creating my unexplained high no3. I one point I stopped dosing and I still had high numbers. Could this have also given the grey slime life. Speak, guardian of underwater paradise.:88)

By the way, I totally lost it, when I saw this living white cloud in my tank. I was actually scared....not of the white cloud, but of my wife after spending all that time with my tank.

My Scapes

Bensaf, I don't know if this sound off the wall, but if the yeast brew was seeping into my tank, wouldn't that be killing off some good germs and creating my unexplained high no3. I one point I stopped dosing and I still had high numbers. Could this have also given the grey slime life. Speak, guardian of underwater paradise.

Easy answer: no.

Like I said in your other thread, unless you dumped a whole 2 L bottle in your tank I wouldn't blame the CO2 bottles. A tiny bit of yeast mix in a tank the size of yours would be really insignificant. The only things that should be in that bottle are yeast, sugar, water, and some ethanol (yum), maybe some protein powder or something if you're feeling really fancy. I have had my DIY mix overflow into the tank, and as I posted before, NOTHING happened. If it were possible for yeast to contaminate our tanks and multiply really rapidly and cause all kinds of havoc, we'd all be in serious trouble because species of yeast are naturally present almost everywhere. There is not enough sugar present to feed yeast in any significant quantity in your tank water.

If your DIY bottles were overflowing, you'd know immediately. Trust me, I've done it. It tends to happen right after you refill the bottles, you'll go in and find nasty foamy junk in the tubes instead of invisible gas. Instead of CO2 bubbling into the tank you'll see a lovely stream of foamy yeast mix flowing into the tank. It's REALLY obvious that's what happened and it doesn't make that kind of mass cloud, it's just kind of faintly cloudy. It doesn't flow into the tank very fast IME. It makes a mess but it cleans up really quickly with carbon filtration and a bit of siphoning. When I've done it (yep, stupid me I'm a complete spaz, if it's possible to make a mess with something, I will always manage to do it - last week I ODed my tank to 15 ppm PO4 accidentally and I'm always tripping on things)....anyway, when my DIY mix overflowed it took maybe 10 mins. to clean up and the fish showed no sign of any stress at all, NH3/NH4 tested 0ppm. The times that I've done it have been in a 10 gallon tank with 2 L (or 3L) bottles, if it could cause a problem I think it would have happened in a tank that small. I really really really really don't think your yeast mix could be the problem.

The kind of mass white cloud present in the pic and the fact that you have elevated NH3/NH4 in the tank point directly to a bacterial bloom. Take a deep breath, stop panicking (yes it is hard to do), follow Mr. Barr's great advice and wait. That's all you can do. The more you fuss with it, the longer it takes to clear. For some reason (usually a problem with maintenance, overfeeding, dirty filter media, unseen dead bodies, whatever) the good bacteria in your tank have not been able to cope with the ammonia/waste being put in there. So suddenly you have conditions that are going to favour any organism that can pull the nitrogenous waste as quickly as possible, you get a white milky looking bacterial bloom and all you can really do is try to relieve the system of as much ammonia and waste as possible through water changes and wait for the bacteria to burn out.

Tetra,

To answer your question quite honestly - I don't know. I mange to grow plants. I did it based on the advise of others and research and learning. I know very little about water chemistry. Mainly because I've had very few problems.
Also I've never used DIY C02 - I don't even know the recipe.

I do know I had a similar problem quite a while back. Due to an overdose of meds (I was tackling a cammallanus outbreak). The wife called me to say to say the water had turned white and the fish were dying. I reckoned their was a nacterial bloom which was consuming all the oxygen. I just tore the darn thing down there and then and started up again. Started at 4pm finished at 1am. Wife was not happy so I can sympathise.The surving fish pulled thru going into 100% new water. The plants (which were totally unaffected) helped soften the cycle.

I find it hard to believe it was the Co2 mixture but who knows I'm wondering if there might be slightly diffeerent connection. The grwy slime it has been suggest and I concur with is a form of bacteria rather then an algae. I'm wondering if maybe a small quanity of the yeast solution got in and somehow rected with the nasty bacteria that was already there ? I doubt it was the other way round and and the Co2 solution caused the slime. Maybe one of the recipe ingredients was gone off ?

I guess you may never know. The only option now is to start over as you've already changed 100% of the water. This time with a clear cut method from the outset. Got to get the wife back onside

Last edited by bensaf at 02-Sep-2005 02:56

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well my tank is still setting with a little water at the substrate level. It's been like that a couple of days. My only question at this point is do I do a through rinsing of everything including the substrate or do I just fill it back up. As I said it's been sitting for a few days.

My Scapes

Tetra tech,

If you got some yeast in there, it will cause a white cloudiness in the water.

You need to do a 95% water change, that should take care of it.

Don't worry, that is fine on the plants etc.
Regards,
Tom Barr

Man,

Sorry to here that, you just haven't been able to catch a break.

Wouldn't worry too much about the bacteria. There should be a still a good bit in the sub, and the plants will take care of whatever the fish produce.You could use a bio starter also.

Whens' the pressurised due ? At least it'll be nice to start up fresh with the full set up.

Glad I never tried DIY

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I don't know anything about Aquasafe decholorinator, sorry, but Prime and Aquel do make the ammonia and nitrite safe for the fish in emergencies. Prime is compatible with purigen while I'm not sure about AmQuel. Prime is also more cost effective than purigen. Purigen is truly an amazing product in my opinion and is worth it's price in gold, but caution shouuld be taken when using anything else but prime as it might render purigen urechargeable.

And excuse me if I don't make too much sense, I'm drunk.

Last edited by untitled at 31-Aug-2005 18:16

Aquasafe doesn't bind ammonia very effectively. I have 0.3-0.5 ppm NH3/NH4 in my tap water and had fatalities while using Aquasafe. Get some Prime. A small bottle will last you a lot longer than Aquasafe and it's a much better conditioner. Purigen works, there is also a product called "Ammo Zorb" that will remove ammonia. Carbon won't do it but it should improve clarity. Also water changes are your best friend, keep doing 50% at a time until you get the ammonia down.

If you have access to purigen and prime, get them. Purigen will clear your water in a matter of hours and prime will detoxify the ammonia to make it safe for your fish.

Just tested my Ammonia and it's 1 ppm. I've never, ever seen that before in my tank. It's always 0. The tank definitely smells like my diy co2 bottle when open.

I've already done 50% water change. What else can I do, fish are in buckets.

My Scapes

Test ammonia. It could be a bacterial bloom for some reason. An ammonia reading would also explain the gasping. Just to be safe I would also dose the tank with some Prime or Amquel or whatever if you have it.

The yeast should not be reproducing in your tank but check to make sure your bottles didn't overflow.

Tryst
Thanks for all that great info. Definitely going to save what you wrote.

Other than the slime,algae issue I've been sailing along as far as my fish are concerned, except last week I lost a school of cardinals that I had for 18 months, I believe due to a ph swing and this morning when I looked at my tank I couldn't see through it. My entire tank looks like the liquid in my diy co2 bottle. Something obviously malfunctional and I found most of the fish gasping at the surface. They are now in buckets. I did a 50% water change and the tank is still very cloudly. Is it possible that the yeast are producing now inside my tank water?



My Scapes

Not a lot to add except to give it some time. IME it takes a few weeks for the plants to adjust to the new routine. I also add a bit more of everything than Bensaf suggested but I have a *lot* of light and fast growing plants. If the grey slime is still there in 2 weeks I would even go as far as upping the dosages a bit more. I have purposely overdosed PO4 on my tank a few times to 4 ppm for kicks (yes, I too lead a sad life) and there was no harmful effect from it after about a week. At 6 wpg and 4 ppm PO4 if phosphate caused algae I'm sure I would have seen some. If anything I just noticed some more pearling and my anubias both put up new leaves at the same time. :%)

If your plants are pearling you are headed in the right direction, just give it some time.

Tryst ordered some stuff from Greg Watson a little while ago. I haven't seen an entry from her that refers to it.

I did order from Greg Watson, got my stuff in 4 days and was really happy with the price and service. His online store rules. I looked into getting the same chems from a hydroponics supply but I would have paid more for them and would have had to go on a drive for 45 mins. and multiple places to get them. For $30 CAD everything I needed was delivered right to my door, can't beat that. :88)

You mentioned Tryst's tank, since she has started dosing all the needed nutrients, her plants are showing fast healthy growth, at least that's what I'm gathering from her pics. (but she will know best how they are responding)

Yes my plants are growing well. No algae except a tiny bit of green spot on the glass (easy enough to remove with a credit card but I've upped PO4 again to get rid of it), my glosso is growing really densely, tank looks like a bottle of soda water at the end of the day from all of the O2 bubbles rising up out of the plants. I'm growing some supposedly "difficult" stuff (L. aromatica, HC, M. umbrosum, E. triandra, A. reineckii) with about 20-30 mins. total maintenance a week. Elatine triandra in particular grows about 2 inches a day and I'm seeing new leaves on my anubias every 2 weeks or so. I don't need any more proof. EI just works. I've also tried limiting nutrients in the past and well, it never worked for me. The plants grew but were stunted and I always had some kind of algae problem. I like the freedom of just dumping whatever into the tank every day and a simple water change every week. It's very simple and I've never seen healthier plants in person.

"Let rev. Bensaf (cert. by the Church of the Estimative Index) show you the way to a planted tank heaven.

Amen."

"Tom Barr the Pope"

Or by his latin name: Plantius Growious IX.

"I won't preach it onto others until the last shread of grey evil slime is gone....forever......"

Let me see... that means in two weeks time at the most. Don't forget to show us pictures of your tank then.

From the marital point of view, your wife is going to love us. No more expensive test kits, no more testing on a saturday night. All that time and money on your hands now which you can invest it in her. Getting a pressurised CO2 system is the way to go. Every woman wants one! It's a well-known fact!

Hmm.....EI is a church now? That does make some sense because I think a lot of people have trouble with it initially because they lack faith in their plants. It also contradicts a lot of old taboos (like adding PO4) and you really just have to have faith in it. Dump those chems in and watch your plants go nuts.

I think I'm still in training but maybe I'll make priestess one day. Nun just doesn't suit me.

I, for one, would be extremely impressed if a guy got me a pressurized CO2 system. Forget diamonds.

Seriously though, have some faith. Forget the test kits and let your plants be your guide. From your tank photos I can spot some problems (other than the algae), the H. polysperma in particular is growing a bit leggier than it should be with a lot of space in between the leaf nodes and the leaves of all of the plants look thin and a bit stunted to me. Follow the old reverend and you should see even more fantastic results.

Given the algae issues you're having I do have one additional reccomendation. I would do a large 50% (or more even) water change and replace or clean the filter media really thoroughly under as much pressure as you can get from the tap (don't worry about your bacterial colonies, they aren't as vital in a planted tank and you should have enough on the plants and substrate for the bioload anyway). You'll want to reset the tank to get it back on track where it should be and a mass water change and cleaning is a good way to do it. It may also shock the algae which is another bonus.

I highly doubt you could be getting 5 ppm PO4 from fish food and waste alone in a tank with that plant mass. Sure, frozen food does leech a bit of PO4 but that is really only troublesome if you have a fish-only tank (who would want one of those? ). If you really want to test the accuracy of the kits, mix a stock solution of known concentration (say 5 ppm, easy to do with KH2PO4 and water and a bit of math) and test it. If the result matches exactly, then and only then can you trust the kit. Eco Complete will also leech some PO4 as far as I know, I am pretty sure I read somewhere that they were having problems with it but even then 5 ppm sounds steep.

You'll probably want to use the callibration method above for the NO3 kit if you're bent on testing. Mix up a 20-40 ppm or so solution of known concentration with your KNO3 and test it. The odd time that I do use test kits is really just to get a basic idea of where things stand....so for instance if I get a reading of NO3 that's off the chart I know it's too high for the range I want. If I get a reading less than 5 ppm or so, it's too low. Don't count on any test kit other than hardness, ammonia, or pH to be accurate enough to give you a solid reading in ppm, if you do test think in ranges. For PO4 specifically, I would be extremely impressed if a $10 kit was accurate enough to give me a good reading at 5 ppm.[/font]

About 5ppm of KNO3 and 0.5ppm of PO4. About 10mls of Flourish.

So each dose about:

1/4 tsp - kno3
1/16 tsp - po4
2 tsp - flourish

Starting point until I get a feel for the tank.

A couple of exciting observations I've made on my tank:

1. Tank looks the best early morning. Slime isn't visible and algae is minimized - Clean up crew, no photosynthesis.

2. Evil Slime - As mentioned not visible first thing in the morning, but within 2 hours you could see 4 inch threads. There has been some argument at APC what this slime is (BGA, other bacteria, etc.) Are the fish eating it or does it not survive overnite in the absence of light.

3. Angel fish poop - I know this sounds silly, but you saw from my pic how these two fish dwarf my tank. They are adding alot of chemicals to the tank both when I feed frozen food and from their huge pieces of poop I find all over the place. I wonder if this is a big part of my brown sludge problem.

4. Under the slime and some other algae, the plant leaves actually appear pretty healthy, I don't see any obvious deficiencies. The sunset leaves are pinkish toward the top, lots of new growth on the wisteria, lower leaves seem to get sludged over in the brown stuff. Also when the leaves are shaken, lots of tiny bubbles float to the surface. Although I see alittle pearling here and there, all these little bubbles I assume are o2.





Last edited by tetratech at 29-Aug-2005 12:14

Last edited by tetratech at 29-Aug-2005 12:54

My Scapes

Well the baking soda would be for KH, but I think I know what your getting at. If your KH is 3 or above forget the baking soda it's just another unneccessary chore.

It'll be fine. The swift in pH won't hurt the fish at all. The Co2 will soon get it back to normal. 50% is not a "must do". Suit yourself. As I said the big WC is a safety valve to re-set the tank each week and then we add back the nutrients. Keeping everything under our control.

You can increase or decrease as you see fit, although it's best to spend a few weeks in the routine and get a feel for what the tank "consumes" against what your adding. Once you have this knowledge you can adjust dosage and water change to suit. Another benefit of EI, it's very flexible.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Now that you brought it up, the 50% water change.
I've never done those, I have recently upped my 20% change to about 30 - 35%. When you make such a big water change should I be adding baking soda since my tap is about 7 and tank with co2 running is about 6.5.


My Scapes

Follow the routine of adding everything daily. Macros and Micros alternate days. Change that Flourish Trace to Flourish Regular.Give it 2 weeks. See the difference. Small amounts of Macros each dose. About 5ppm of KNO3 and 0.5ppm of PO4. About 10mls of Flourish.

Now you KNOW everything you need is there. Excess won't cause issues. The 50% water change each week will take care of it.

If you see an improvement in 2 weeks then you can play with the dosing. Decrease until you see a slow down or drop in growth, go back up a notch and that's pretty much the optimum dosing level for your tank.

You won't be calling us names then

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.