FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Bensaf, I don't know if this sound off the wall, but if the yeast brew was seeping into my tank, wouldn't that be killing off some good germs and creating my unexplained high no3. I one point I stopped dosing and I still had high numbers. Could this have also given the grey slime life. Speak, guardian of underwater paradise.

Easy answer: no.

Like I said in your other thread, unless you dumped a whole 2 L bottle in your tank I wouldn't blame the CO2 bottles. A tiny bit of yeast mix in a tank the size of yours would be really insignificant. The only things that should be in that bottle are yeast, sugar, water, and some ethanol (yum), maybe some protein powder or something if you're feeling really fancy. I have had my DIY mix overflow into the tank, and as I posted before, NOTHING happened. If it were possible for yeast to contaminate our tanks and multiply really rapidly and cause all kinds of havoc, we'd all be in serious trouble because species of yeast are naturally present almost everywhere. There is not enough sugar present to feed yeast in any significant quantity in your tank water.

If your DIY bottles were overflowing, you'd know immediately. Trust me, I've done it. It tends to happen right after you refill the bottles, you'll go in and find nasty foamy junk in the tubes instead of invisible gas. Instead of CO2 bubbling into the tank you'll see a lovely stream of foamy yeast mix flowing into the tank. It's REALLY obvious that's what happened and it doesn't make that kind of mass cloud, it's just kind of faintly cloudy. It doesn't flow into the tank very fast IME. It makes a mess but it cleans up really quickly with carbon filtration and a bit of siphoning. When I've done it (yep, stupid me I'm a complete spaz, if it's possible to make a mess with something, I will always manage to do it - last week I ODed my tank to 15 ppm PO4 accidentally and I'm always tripping on things)....anyway, when my DIY mix overflowed it took maybe 10 mins. to clean up and the fish showed no sign of any stress at all, NH3/NH4 tested 0ppm. The times that I've done it have been in a 10 gallon tank with 2 L (or 3L) bottles, if it could cause a problem I think it would have happened in a tank that small. I really really really really don't think your yeast mix could be the problem.

The kind of mass white cloud present in the pic and the fact that you have elevated NH3/NH4 in the tank point directly to a bacterial bloom. Take a deep breath, stop panicking (yes it is hard to do), follow Mr. Barr's great advice and wait. That's all you can do. The more you fuss with it, the longer it takes to clear. For some reason (usually a problem with maintenance, overfeeding, dirty filter media, unseen dead bodies, whatever) the good bacteria in your tank have not been able to cope with the ammonia/waste being put in there. So suddenly you have conditions that are going to favour any organism that can pull the nitrogenous waste as quickly as possible, you get a white milky looking bacterial bloom and all you can really do is try to relieve the system of as much ammonia and waste as possible through water changes and wait for the bacteria to burn out.

Tetra,

To answer your question quite honestly - I don't know. I mange to grow plants. I did it based on the advise of others and research and learning. I know very little about water chemistry. Mainly because I've had very few problems.
Also I've never used DIY C02 - I don't even know the recipe.

I do know I had a similar problem quite a while back. Due to an overdose of meds (I was tackling a cammallanus outbreak). The wife called me to say to say the water had turned white and the fish were dying. I reckoned their was a nacterial bloom which was consuming all the oxygen. I just tore the darn thing down there and then and started up again. Started at 4pm finished at 1am. Wife was not happy so I can sympathise.The surving fish pulled thru going into 100% new water. The plants (which were totally unaffected) helped soften the cycle.

I find it hard to believe it was the Co2 mixture but who knows I'm wondering if there might be slightly diffeerent connection. The grwy slime it has been suggest and I concur with is a form of bacteria rather then an algae. I'm wondering if maybe a small quanity of the yeast solution got in and somehow rected with the nasty bacteria that was already there ? I doubt it was the other way round and and the Co2 solution caused the slime. Maybe one of the recipe ingredients was gone off ?

I guess you may never know. The only option now is to start over as you've already changed 100% of the water. This time with a clear cut method from the outset. Got to get the wife back onside

Last edited by bensaf at 02-Sep-2005 02:56

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Well my tank is still setting with a little water at the substrate level. It's been like that a couple of days. My only question at this point is do I do a through rinsing of everything including the substrate or do I just fill it back up. As I said it's been sitting for a few days.

My Scapes

Tetra tech,

If you got some yeast in there, it will cause a white cloudiness in the water.

You need to do a 95% water change, that should take care of it.

Don't worry, that is fine on the plants etc.
Regards,
Tom Barr

Thanks for the link. They reviewed my kit and said it was farily accurate.

Kit review from "Practical Fishkeeping"

Hagen Nutrafin Phosphate test kit
Hagen’s Nutrafin Phosphate test kit can be used in fresh and saltwater and is said to be capable of measuring phosphate levels of 0, 0.25, 0.5, 1.0, 2.5 and 5.0 mg/l.

The kit includes sufficient reagent for a massive 75 tests, so it looks very good value for money.

The instructions are good, but in common with other kits here, there could be more information on phosphate control.
This kit took us a little longer (about four minutes per sample), and we found it a tad more fiddly.

The test tube leaks (not good when the samples come with safety warnings) and the reagent bottle is very awkward. It dispenses the drops automatically, and
we found it hard to get the required three drops in the tube.

Since getting the size and quantity of drops is vital to the performance of the test, we had to chuck several failed tests in which we’d accidentally added four or five drops.

However, we did find it quite easy to read, and the level of variation we recorded was about average. The performance matched exactly what we expected from Hagen’s claims. It might not be ultra-high resolution, but it certainly does what it is supposed to do, and it’s got fairly good readability. Overall, it was the best performer we recorded.

I used my kit to measure both my tank water and tap water and got about 5 from the tank and zero from the tap, so I have a feelings its fairly accurate. I also have alot of brown algae, gunk on my substrate which probably has alot of phosphate in it. Not sure why I keep getting this stuff, because I don't overfeed. My two angels are large waste producers and maybe they are contributing to the problem, since much of my substrate is covered with plants, etc, so it's not being gravel washed out.


My Scapes

Uh Tetra,

Your problem is for sure a complicated one and I guess we have to wait for an answer from Bensaf or the like. I will never the less try to put my 2 cents in.

I don’t think that your fish would produce the phosphate; I guess it’s the frozen food. Are you sure there are no leftovers?
I also don’t understand your NO3 addition statement. You say you add it and in between additions it is still 20ppm. So how high is it right after you add more? Maybe you should stretch out the NO3 additions.

And I also have a question: What test kit do you use for phosphate? I want one and don’t know what to get.

And towards the “No Life” – sure you have one, like all others here (including myself), we just spend it differently

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Littlefish,

I'm basically feeling out my tank and seeing what affects what, but I believe something is interfering with the uptake. What I meant by no3 readings are that right before I add more I've been testing the no3 and it doesn't appear that it's getting used up, so I really haven't been adding in that case.

I just picked up a Hagen phosphate test at my lfs. It looks like a good one. As I mentioned I tested my tap and got basically a "0" ready and the tank was in the "5" range.

I only feed a portion of one small frozen cube in the tank a few times a week. Some members have addressed issues with Eco-complete. I can't imagine this is part of the problem. I've also just started to increase my water change from 20% to 30% weekly.

I definitely have brown algae on my substrate, which I'm reading is caused by insufficient light and/or high phosphate levels. I could already hear Bensaf saying "high phosphate doesn't cause the algae, but the imbalance of nutrients, light, etc which interfes with the uptake. I think part of the complexity is that my tank isn't like a "dutch" setup with plants shoulder to shoulder to suck everything up. So I haven't found the right combination of things to keep it sound.

Am i making to much of this, maybe it's just the tap water on Long Island.



Last edited by tetratech at 28-Aug-2005 07:54

Last edited by tetratech at 28-Aug-2005 07:59

My Scapes

Tetra,

I know nothing about Eco-Complete as I use Laterite in the gravel.

I could already hear Bensaf saying "high phosphate doesn't cause the algae, but the imbalance of nutrients, light, etc which interfes with the uptake”

Yeah, that’s him; hope he reads this thread soon.

But you know what, I don’t think that this is what he would say. I think high phosphates (in relationship to % to nitrates) will cause algae, high potassium doesn’t.

BTW, I am in NJ

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi guys,

Well it's Sunday here and got a hangover Never let the tank interfere with your "real" life. Don't worry Tetra my wife thought I lost it long ago. I got married to her in a skirt , there wasn't much respect left to lose ]

You two make me sound like an old nagging mother hen

You put a lot of faith in your test kits. What are the plants saying ? Is growth ok , strong ? Any pearling.

Phosphate pushes nitrate uptake but Nitrates ain't moving. Tap reads zero but tank reads 5ppm. What's gonna produce 5ppm of phosphate ? Nothing I can think of !

I smell test kit bull Sounds like dodgy results to me.

You're right - I am going to say high phosphates doesn't cause algae. Something's stalled plant growth. Now what could it be.

We know it can't be NO3, Co2, K, or Micros 'cos you're putting all that in. What's left ? Hmmmm P ! But you haven't added any 'cos the test kit says you have lots ! Even if we don't know how it mysteriously appeared !!

Lets say you have 5ppm. Do you think if we add 0.5ppm that would make things a whole lot worse ? I doubt it. But if your test kit is wrong and you have no P if we add 0.5ppm it could make things a whole better.

Add 0.5ppm of the phosphate and see what happens. If Nitrates drop and plant growth increases then you can toss that test kit in the bin.

If you're nervous about this and still want to trust the kit do a 50% water change and dilute with 0ppm tap water and then add the 0.5ppm.

Lets see who's right the hungover Irish twat or the test kit

Just noticed you said you stopped adding Kno3. You gotta take a leap of faith here guys.The Estimative Index is based on dosing to excess. Mr Barr has pretty much proven that the upper limits before problems arise are sky high. Hence the 50% water change to re-set the tank. Part of the reason he came up with this method is because test kits are so darn useless and mis-leading. I've been down that road too - letting the test kits dictate the dosing, just got a load of problems. Once I put faith in the method and just added the nutrients regardless of what the test kits said everything was much better.
The only kits I touch now are pH and KH to calculate Co2 levels. Occassionly GH.

Go with the program. Trust it. See what the results are. Your eys and the plants are much more reliable then test kits. BTW you'd be better off cranking up the Co2 to a constant 30ppm rather then increasing the light.


Last edited by bensaf at 28-Aug-2005 09:04

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Good morning!

Sorry to hear about your hangover. Hope it was worth it, usually it's not.

Anyway here's a pic of my tank this morning. Maybe you can make some observations. I'm still learning all the manual controls on the camera, so excuse me if the pic isn't the greatest.





Last edited by tetratech at 28-Aug-2005 09:14

My Scapes

Never mind learning the camera controls - learn how to attach it

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Sorry, accidently hit send.

Here it is:



tetratech attached this image:


My Scapes

That's a fine looking tank tetra. Great job on the layout

Wisteria and Polysperma are big Nitrate suckers. It should be moving unless something is stopping the uptake. There's a decent amount of them too. I'd add the phosphate - watch for pearling. if they suddenly start pearling more after adding the phosphate well you know that's been an issue.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks Bensaf, from a distance everything looks pretty good. Here's a closer shot of my wistera with the brown loose gunk.



By the way I just took my ph and kh, since I'm using two 1.9 litre bottles now 24/7, my ph this morning is reading about 6.0 and kh 3, so I have about 50 co2 ppm -. Fish seem fine. That's the inconsistently with the diy co2, but again even pressurized will drop 24/7 overnite.

**Forget my ph reading I must have corrupted it, just took it twice again and I'm looking at about 6.4 and kh 3 which is pretty good.**

tetratech attached this image:
[

Last edited by tetratech at 28-Aug-2005 10:24[/font]

Last edited by tetratech at 28-Aug-2005 10:25

My Scapes

This is from the Planted Tank Website. One think for sure, this is what I have in my tank. I also attached a substrate pic showing the brown stuff on my eco-complete.

http://www.plantedtank.net/algae.html

Brown Algae

Mainly found on plants and substrate. It is like a brown sludge that coats the plants. It is very easy to rub it off. Usually caused by excess phosphates in the water.

Getting rid of it
One of the easiest ways to get rid of it is buy alot of fast growing plants so that they can outcompete the algae for the nutrients. However you could just buy either a group of SAE (siamese algae eaters) or otocinclus (commonly referred to as oto's). They will make a feast out of it. It is best to buy them in groups of 3 or larger.


tetratech attached this image:


Without a doubt. In the morning, my tank definitely looks better, is this because algae is not being produced and the cleanup crew (otos and bristlenoses go to work.)

Last edited by tetratech at 28-Aug-2005 09:56[/font]

My Scapes

Can't really add much to what Bensaf said, but can obviously agree (and who am I to disagree with Bensaf anyway?). But I do have two things to say:
1. Phosphate kits are especially ineffective. Read this if you want to know more.

2. Sometimes it's hard to tell what is exactly the problem. I've had a potassium deficiency which kept my plants from growing properly. The plants weren't happy, but it was only when I added Hygrophila corymbosa "compact" to my tank that I've realised I need more potassium, as this plant clearly shows potassium deficiency while the others didn't. Perhaps this is also part of your problem. I need to add 1.5 teaspoons per week of K2SO4 or my plants stop growing and the Hygrophila develops holes.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bensaf. I've also been there, trying to limit nutrients, and the only thing that grew well in my tank was algae. Once I stopped resisting and added whatever my plants need -- KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and micros -- my plants thanked me by growing just like I wanted them to. Once you have the courage to follow us into the path of light, the only algae you will get will be the algae in the algae wafers.

I sympathise deeply with posters who go through the effort to test everything in their tank and try to get it just right. I have never tested for phosphate and I only ever test for nitrate now when I want to entertain myself with shaking test tubes for a while. This is fine if you want to keep yourself entertained for 90 seconds, but if it's growing plants you're after -- there are better ways. Let rev. Bensaf (cert. by the Church of the Estimative Index) show you the way to a planted tank heaven.

Amen.

O.K.

I have no life. I'm testing my phosphate on a Saturday Nite. My wife is losing all respect for me.

Anyway, been having trouble with brown dusty algae and greyish slime as most of you know.

Been adding nitrate, potasium, and was set to start adding phosphate, but decided to test phosphate first.

Well.....my phosphate is a whopping 4 ppm. I guess this explains some of the algae problems I'm having.

I also tested my tap and it read basically "0".
I feed very lightly, and do 20% weekly water changes. My tank is not fish overloaded. I do have two large angels in the tank. Could they be contributing that much phosphate. I do feed a cube of frozen blood worms twice a week as well

It sounds like something is limiting the plants ability to utilize the nutrients. c02 has been consistent at about 20 ppm over the last few weeks. Also I've been adding no3 a few times a week about 1/4 tsp and whenever I check no3 between additions it's always at about 20 ppm.

I've decided to increase light to 4wpg and keep a close eye on the co2 rate to see if this helps with the uptake of the nutrients. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Gotta go, I have to take the wife out - After all it is Saturday nite.

My Scapes

The accuracy of your phosphate test kit was besides the point. The point was that I agree with Bensaf that you should add phosphate.

Using R/O water for my water changes (a headache when it comes to planted tank, but my tap water causes other problems), I add more KH2PO4 than is otherwise recommended. I actually add 1/2 teaspoon of it on the day of the water change, which according to Chuck's calculator brings the phosphate levels of my tank to 4.5ppm. It definitely doesn't cause any algae blooms, I swear. The only thing it does is giving me nice lush growth on plants, but if I added half as much, I would get the algae growing nicely, but not much plant growth. I know, because I tried.

I still think you should add KH2PO4, but if you are still not convinced you can always start by trying to limit phosphate in your tank (water changes, if your tap water really contain no phosphate) and if that doesn't work, try adding KH2PO4 and see if that works.

I know what works for me, but it's okay, I also had to go the hard way before I was convinced, so I know what it's like...

Appreciate the insight. What is your source for the KH2PO4 where you live?

My Scapes

Once you have the courage to follow us into the path of light

Show us the way, oh masters of flora aquatica



Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I'm in Britain, don't think it will help you much, but I get my fix from www.aquaessentials.co.uk. I know that in the USA you can get it from www.gregwatson.com. Shouldn't be too difficult.

Have a look at Tom Barr's Estimative Index method. It's works like magic. Just give your plants what they need and they will take care of the algae for you. Have never encountered anyone using his method that failed. It's simple and successful, just what we all really want, no?

Tryst ordered some stuff from Greg Watson a little while ago. I haven't seen an entry from her that refers to it.

Maybe she's reading this thread and can state her experience.

Ingo

Edit: Untitled, haven't seen you in a while, I am glad you are back.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 28-Aug-2005 16:46

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Little Fish,

Greg Watson is quite well known in the hobby and although I haven't ordered anything from him myself (being in the UK), I can't see why she should be unhappy with whatever she bought from him.

As for me, I was here all the time reading posts, only been quiet. Guess I didn't have much to say... Thanks anyway. I'll try to beep more often to show my existence.

tetratech, that's one sweet tank you have there, nice work.

It seems like we have a similar problem which Bensaf's been helping me with. I also need phosphates and will get some. You mentioned Tryst's tank, since she has started dosing all the needed nutrients, her plants are showing fast healthy growth, at least that's what I'm gathering from her pics. (but she will know best how they are responding)

"Lets see who's right the hungover Irish twat or the test kit" - This was too funny !


The Amazon Nut...

Let rev. Bensaf (cert. by the Church of the Estimative Index) show you the way to a planted tank heaven.

Bless you my child . I guess that would make Tom Barr the Pope

Tetra,

Do not resist. Do not resist. Resistance is futile.

The review of the kit talks about useability and ease of reading. Probably did nothing to test accuracy

Untitled summed it up pretty well. EI works. I too haven't encountered anybody who failed using the method.

We can discuss all day the "excess nutrient" myth. What we do know is that providing all the nutrients allows he plants to grow at optimum levels thereby knocking out the algae. Tom reckons it's because both occupy different niches. By allowing the plants to grow there simply isn't a niche for the algae to occupy.

Providing the nutrients is the way to go. You can try to second guess by relying on test kits to determine what to add. This is very dodgy and is placing a lot of reliance on notoriuosly dodgy mickey mouse hobbyist test kits. Or you can simply ensure that everything is there by adding it yourself. To excess even.That is the path to planted righteousness.

You are still focused on the algae. "Where's it coming from , is it this causing it or maybe that". Forget about it. Concentrate on the plants. Make sure they have everything they need by adding it. Not by trusting a test kit that says it's already there. Even if it is already there a bit more won't hurt.

Take control of your tank. Put control into your own hands and not in the hands of test kits or algae.

Yes the Otto's and BN will do their best work at night.

Greg Watson is a great source for KH2PO4. $10 including shipping will get you a few years supply.

Here endeth the lesson. Go in peace my son.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

O.K., O.K.

I believe you, I will sacrifice my tank to this EI movement, but I won't preach it onto others until the last shread of grey evil slime is gone....forever......



My Scapes

"Tom Barr the Pope"

Or by his latin name: Plantius Growious IX.

"I won't preach it onto others until the last shread of grey evil slime is gone....forever......"

Let me see... that means in two weeks time at the most. Don't forget to show us pictures of your tank then.

From the marital point of view, your wife is going to love us. No more expensive test kits, no more testing on a saturday night. All that time and money on your hands now which you can invest it in her. Getting a pressurised CO2 system is the way to go. Every woman wants one! It's a well-known fact!

Last edited by untitled at 29-Aug-2005 00:47

Untitled


Tetra,
That's it, give it a try. When everything is looking great in 2 weeks you have to tell us. To prove to others it works and most importantly to give the opportunity to "na na ne na na tol ya so "



Btw, my wife has come to terms with the addiction. Mainly 'cos it keeps me out of the pub. But she's still pretty mad that I paid good money to get a master test kit and it now gathers dust in a bottom drawer. Sometimes I pour the reagent down the sink to make it look like I'm actually using it.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.