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Hey all. Its been some time, but l am back

Can someone tell me what algae l have on my plants and heater and how to get rid of it.

http://images.snapfish.com/346855%3A62%7Ffp33%3A%3Enu%3D327%3B%3E%3A7%3A%3E8%3B8%3EWSNRCG%3D3233664236329nu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/346855%3A62%7Ffp343%3Enu%3D327%3B%3E%3A7%3A%3E8%3B8%3EWSNRCG%3D3233663%3B%3C%3B7%3A5nu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/346855%3A62%7Ffp343%3Enu%3D327%3B%3E%3A7%3A%3E8%3B8%3EWSNRCG%3D3233663%3B%3C%3B7%3B3nu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/346855%3A62%7Ffp339%3Enu%3D327%3B%3E%3A7%3A%3E8%3B8%3EWSNRCG%3D3233664236343nu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/346855%3A62%7Ffp33%3B%3Enu%3D327%3B%3E%3A7%3A%3E8%3B8%3EWSNRCG%3D32336642374%3B%3Bnu0mrj

http://images.snapfish.com/346855%3A62%7Ffp346%3Enu%3D327%3B%3E%3A7%3A%3E8%3B8%3EWSNRCG%3D3233664236354nu0mrj

What my tank looks like
http://images.snapfish.com/34685628%3A%7Ffp339%3Enu%3D327%3B%3E%3A7%3A%3E8%3B8%3EWSNRCG%3D3233664259%3A95nu0mrj

My setup as of today

Water volume: 160lt
PH: 7.0
KH: 7deg
GH: 10deg
CO2: around 18-21ppm
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate: 5-10ppm
Iron: .1-.5ppm
Phosphate: Very high, not sure on values as l cant remember.

Lights on from 8am to 6pm
3x 48” fluro’s. Flora or Aqua Gro, Power Glo and life Glo2
DIY CO2 runs from 9am to 5:30pm
4x airstones run from 6:30pm to 7:30am

fish (all under 3cm so far)
3x SAE
6x Black Widows
6x Diamond Tetras
2x Peppermint Pleco’s
2x Bolivian Rams
6x Cardinal Tetras

Frets (All Flourish Products)
Mon: Flourish 3.5mils, Phosphorus 5mils, Nitrogen 2.5mils, Iron 5.5mils
Tue: Iron 5.5mils
Wed: Potassium 6.5mils, Iron 5.5mils
Thur: Phosphorus 5mils, Nitrogen 2.5mils, Iron 5.5mils
Fri: Potassium 6.5mils, Iron 5.5mils
Sat: Flourish 3.5mils, Iron 5.5mils
Sunday 40lt water change

Last week was the first week l had stopped putting in Phosphorus. The reason for this was l have very high levels of phosphate in the tank and l worked out that phosphate is a bi-product of Phosphorus and Oxygen4. Tell me if l am wrong.

My plants seem very healthy as they are all pearling and growing very steady and l have runners every week.

The algae is BBA and the cause is this

CO2: around 18-21ppm

Keeping Co2 at a stable rate of about 30ppm will solve most all of your BBA problems.

I appreciate that this is next to impossible with DIY co2. I am of the mind that I'd rather use a non Co2 method then mess with DIY. The sheer instability of it causes a lot more issues then the benefits justify.

Using Flourish Excel along with the DIY Co2 will go a long way to help. It'll severely damage the existing stuff and keep new growth at bay.

Does X 2 or 3 times the label instructions until you have things under control.

I have to say as well as the algae the plants don't look as healthy or lush as they should be. The nItrates could be upped a little closer to 20ppm. This is particularly important when P is high. Phosphate really spurs on nitrate uptake in plants , you may be bottoming out. Certainly to my eye the plants looks nitrate deprived.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Thanks for your reply.

So is it cool to say l have done the right thing about the phosphate problem l am having?.. stop using Phosphorus.

What should be my next step?
Leave everything the way it is and:
Add another bottle of C02 or buy some excel?. (l prefer to run another C02 bottle).
Will this get rid of the BBA l have now or will it just stay there and not grow anymore?
What can l do to up the nitrate levels?

Thanks in advance
Wayne

Try reading this. It should give you a good idea of how to fix things with your tank.

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1

Under water plants are much like our air plants from our gardens. You have to feed them to make them grow. Read the artical and it will really help you out.



55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well if you're sure your phosphates are high then it's no problem to stop dosing. But your now relying on the accurracy of your test kit !!! How much do you trust it ???

You can always add a reduced dose. If your P is really high a little bit more is not going to hurt and in the event that your test kit is wrong you still have some P for the plants. Your bases are covered.

How to up Nitrate? Simple add more ! You can use the Flourish Nitrogen or add KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) to do this.

An extra bottle may help on the Co2.

No the old stuff won't really ie off but new growth of algae should stop.

You can remove the existing algae by overdosing Excel, which should kill it or dipping the plants in a bleach soloution (19parts water 1 part bleach) for about 2 minutes. This will kill the algae (it turns white and will eventually drop off) but more sensitive plants may be harmed by this.

Read the article linked above it's very good and will give you a sound idea of how much to dose.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thank you both for your input.

I have left everything as is for the tank, but l will not be feeding the fish for another few days. SAE will then eat more of this algae and l can also lower my phosphate levels down.

No l dont trust my phosphate test kit, but the levels it shows on the kit and having this algae coming up must mean l have high levels. I will be doing a water change tonight (no gravel vac) and one on friday, then another on Sunday. Hope this will bring down the phosphate in my tank.

I'll also up the levels of Nitrogen to 3mils then watch and wait for my nitrate to go up a bit. Also will drop my Phosphorus down to 2mils and see what happens

Hopefully buy doing these few things l can bring the tank back together and have some nice plants.

Thanks again guys.

No l dont trust my phosphate test kit, but the levels it shows on the kit and having this algae coming up must mean l have high levels.

Well high phosphates doesn't equal algae. That's a rumor

But you have to be careful with phosphate nonetheless. Not because of algae. P will really drive a plants uptake of macro nutrients, co2 etc. So where the P is high there may not be enough of the other things to satisfy demand, thereby slowing the plants down and allowing the algae in. So it's not really high phosphate that's the problem rather too low on the other nutrients.

So P should be handled with care, no problem to run high, just make sure there's plenty of everything else too.

I can tell by looking at the pics. The bottoms of the plants don't look so hot. That's a sure sign that Nitrate is low. N is mobile - when the plant is short of N it moves it's N supply from old growth to support the new growth resulting in the old leaves looking bad and dropping off. With good nitrate there should be no bottom leaf loss, even with a little shading.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

That is true, l think its more a rumor.

Just to let you know. I tested my tap water last night and the test kit showed no phosphate in the water. When l tested my tank water l was over the highest scale. this is why l think l have way too much phosphate in the tank. I know l have to take this test with a grain of salt, but there is a very big difference in the two test.

Did a whater change last night and l'll do another test tonight to see if the phosphate is going down. l also added 3mils of nitrogen this morning to up my levels of nitrate.

My aim is to have low levels of P so l dont have to add so much other ferts as my C02 and lighting are the limtiing factor in my tank.

I think l have a much better understanding about all this now and should have things sorted by next week.

Thanks again for you help bensaf and thanks for the good read up Wingsdlc

Wayne

Well if the tap has no Phosphate how's it getting into the tank ?

Either you are adding it , too heavy dosing of the Flourish Phophorous ? Overfeeding perhaps ? Using any water buffers. pH down etc? These usually have a lot of P.

It's coming from somewhere. Find out where and you can control the levels.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I'm tipping its me over doing it on the Flourish Phophorous. I used to use a PH 7.0 stable powder, but havent used this for over 6 weeks now.
All l'm putting into the tank is Baking soda for KH, Conditioning salt for hardness and Flourish produts. Could be me over feeding l'll start giving less food from now on.

Just to fill you all in on what l have benn doing.

I found out where my high posphate is coming from. In my ext. filter l have a pouch of Bio-Chem in there to remove the yellowing water which was due to my driftwood. I have had this in my filter now for 5 months and was due next month to remove. I read somewhere that anytype of media that has active carbon in it will release phosphate.. Even if the package says is contain no phosphate!
Have a read.. http://www.aquariumsecrets.com/carbon_phosphates.htm

Anyways, l have now removed most of the BBA by removing all my microswords and cutting out the BBD area from my other plants. I have now upped my nitrate leaves to 10-20ppms and added more Iron to the tank.

I'll post back in a weeks time with my readings.

Cheers
Wayne

Well high phosphates doesn't equal algae. That's a rumor

Really? I was told by several people, as well as the
info on my fertilizer bottle "contains no phosphates that may lead to unwanted algae growth".

I have been so careful to make sure no ferts I use
have any phosphates or phosphorous for this reason.
How odd that its just a rumor!


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Well if my BBA goes away or stops growing on my plants due to me having less phophate or none, then l can say is more then just a rumor

After this little problem l have l will now make sure l get products that have no phosphate in it.

How odd that its just a rumor!

You believe every piece of marketing hype ?

Anyway most folks have a supply of Nitrate and phosphate already, fish waste. The levels do need to be controlled, but not because of algae. Nitrate is toxic to fish and inverts if too high. So most good fert makers keep the N and P out of their liquid micro ferts. They sell it seperatley for easy control.

The whole phosphate = algae thing starting primarily with the Sears/Conlin paper. It's since been shown quite clearly that particular hypotheses is flawed. If any nutrient is missing it becomes the limiting the factor , the bottle neck, which stalls plant growth rendering ither nutrients useless. It gives the impression that the unused nutrients are the problem. A big mis-conception which got taken up as fact for a long time.

The only nutrient that causes algae is NH4 and Urea neither of which we purposefully add to out tank.

Nitrate and phosphate will not cause algae and in fact are vital for good plant growth.

Excess of the nutrients we add will never cause algae. A shortage of one or more nutrient will. Every darn time.

You say you avoid products with phosphate. Got any algae ??? I seem to remember you have quite a bit.

I add 2ppm of phosphate every 2 days !!! I don't have any algae.

Well if my BBA goes away or stops growing on my plants due to me having less phophate or none, then l can say is more then just a rumor

Can you ?

How do you know it's not the increased Nitrate or any other change that got rid of the algae ?

This is how the "rumor" started. Flawed assumptions.

You need to isolate things first and test before you can say a particular nutirent produces a particular effect.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can prove it for any nutrient you suspect. Simply add plenty of everything except the "suspect" nutrient and see what happens in about 2 weeks. Then add back the "suspect" nutrient and see what happens.

I can induce the growth of BBA quite easily in a clean tank. But it doesn't have anything to do with phosphate.
Adding phosphate doesn't induce BBA. Messing with Co2 and giving a very unstable supply grows it easily. So does a dirty tank with a lot of decomposing organics.Water changes in a non co2 tank grows it good too.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

bensaf,

A very good explaination you have got here and in some way l'm with you on this.

Good explanation Bensaf tyvm!
I can too see how it could definetly lead
to a flawed hypothesis as you say.

You say you avoid products with phosphate. Got any algae ??? I seem to remember you have quite a bit.

Actually in my 75g tank I have no algae at all.
In my 10g tank I have algae, but I know thats
primarily due to the fact that it has 4.6 watts per
gallon of light in addition to being between 2 windows.
Im sure its the light causing the algae, but as I have
increased the plant numbers, the algae too is receding.

My 25g tank also has no algae.

The liquid fert I use has no phosphates or phosphorous
but does contain nitrogen.


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The idea of excess phosphate, nitrate,iron causing algae just doesn't make sense. They are tiny organism that can survive on parts per billion, not the ppm we need for plants to do well. So why would an "excess" of 1ppm or 2ppm be enough for algae to grow ? Not logical.

The same can be said of the oft repeated "myth" that plants out compete algae for nutrients. Just doesn't work that way. Again the amounts that algae need are so minisicule that plants can never "out compete" algae.

So where does that leave us ? Why can tanks loaded with light , Co2 and nutrients to excess(the requirements for both plant growth and algae growth) not have any algae ?

Think of it this way -
Plants and algae are different life forms occupying different places in an eco-system. Algal spores are everywhere - in the very air we breathe as well as constantly in the water in our tanks. Why aren't they running rampant and ruling the world? Well it's more then likely they need a trigger to indicate to the spore it's time to mature into an adult.

We can apply that to our tanks. In simple terms think of it like trying to breed fish. A lot of fish need a trigger to elicit a breeding response. That may be a change in pH, temp, the sudden availability of live foods etc.
Algae spores would be no different.

So what would that trigger be? Well the sudden availability of NH4 and Urea would be one. And how would that happen? Well NH4 and Urea are constantly produced in our tanks thru fish waste, decomposing organics etc. We rely on bacteria colonies and plants to process that quickly by either consumption or nitrification. Stressed plants will stall and slow, their consumption of NH4 would drop. What causes stressed plants ? A lack of nutrients !!!!

Loading of organics is important too. Over stocked with fish and chances are there will be more NH4 and Urea produced then the plants or bacteria can handle, same if the tank is allowed to get too dirty.

Swings in Co2 availablity are a real good trigger for algae growth. That's why on Non co2 taks water changes will grow good algae, sudden injections of Co2 rich tap water favor algae more then plants. Any instability can trigger algae.

So try to think of it that algae is always there lurking awaiting the green light to mature into adulthood.

With this knowledge and the understanding of what acts as a trigger it becomes very easy to knaow how to keep a tank algae free. Give the plants all they need (including phosphate ) to grow good, keep things clean and stable , take it easy on the fish load and you'll have very very few alage problems.

If you make a mistake,slip on the routine, we all do, don't panic , just get the routine back on track. The trick is to keep the alage spores from maturing, the adult alage will dies off in a month or two (it's normal life span), once you aren''t triggering new algae you'll be clean again in that period.

Very easy really in practice. Problems is most people don't get or resist the concept ! The prevailing "myths" don't help much.

BTW all of the above is based on the work of others, I'm just passing it along has it helped me hugely. Once I grasped the concept and understood everything is very very easy.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Plants and algae are different life forms occupying different places in an eco-system. Algal spores are everywhere - in the very air we breathe as well as constantly in the water in our tanks. Why aren't they running rampant and ruling the world? Well it's more then likely they need a trigger to indicate to the spore it's time to mature into an adult.

Interesting and sounds logical. There are many microscopic forms of life that exist this way.

I originally believed as well that po4, no3, excess will cause major algae problems, but I truly don't believe this any more. I believe a very clean tank will also be pretty much clean of visible algae. Algae is everywhere even in a crystal clear ocean or stream, but it doesn't become a nusiance unless things are so off center.

In a planted tank the full "healthy" plant load sucks up alot of nh3 before it's available to algae. I hate to bring up the darkside again, but in salt water there are no plants to do this so what does the smart aquarist do. They increase biofilteration to reduce waste, thus the sump and a ton of live rock.

Tanks don't have to be alot of work if you respect the laws of nature. It's not nature (pristine) to have a ton of fish in a limited space, but if that's what you enjoy then you must be able to put in the time on your tank (more water changes/gravel wash) or if you don't want to put in the extra work, add more water volume by using a wet/dry or another filter that will increase biofileration exponentionally.

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