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Ok, I had a good transaction today..
Some platies of mine traded for 2or3 month of PMDD.
Powder form...

Here's what I have..
Epsom Salt
Potassium Sulfate
Potassium Nitrate
Chelated Trace Element.

How do I dose a 40 gal tank ? It's only medium planted at the moment, also adding nitrates would not be good right now it's high.

Current Stats..
ph: 7.5
gh: 9 degrees, or 160 ppm
kh: 4 degrees, or 71 ppm
co2: 4 or 5 ppm (guess based on a chart on a website)
nitrates: 25 at the moment (time for water change)

Will attempt to bump up CO2 to 15-20ppm...
Light 1.5 wpg in 14 inch high tank..

I only have normal test kit, not for iron etc..
Any way I can immediately get a bit of potassium and traces in there ?
Thanks

The Amazon Nut...

Err...your use for these items will be limited at the moment

The PMDD concept is pretty outmoded and not the best way to grow plants. Your missing one vital ingredient - phosphate. Without the PO4 the rest of the ingredients will have a greatly reduced effect.

Looking at the ingredients you have I can't see much use for them at the moment.

Epsom salts ? You already have a GH of 9 , already a bit on the high side. You have more then enough Calcium and Magnesium.Not needed.

Potassium Nitrate. Well if your test kit is correct and you have 25ppm you don't need this either, at the moment.

The other 2 may have some uses.

The potassium you could chuck in about 1/4 of a teaspoon. Not sure if it will make much difference but it won't harm.It's not something you can get from fish food/poo.

The traces while still not running C02 would just need a very small weekly dose. I assume it's plantex CSM+B ? I've never used so I'm not very clear on the dosage.

At present you have a low light, non C02, lightly planted (I know you said moderate, but most people over estimate their plant bio mass and with 25ppm of NO3 it would indicate a low bio mass) as such the plants aren't going to be working hard so there should be little need to add much of anything.

The methods for non Co2/low light and Co2 injected /higher light are completely different. The basis is the same, ensure all nutrients available all the time, but the quantities needed and how to supply are completely different.

For non -co2 -
No water changes. Lots of plants. Depending on the amount of fish and the quantity of plants, the nitrate and phosphate from fish food and poo should do it. If a lot of plants maybe 1/8-1/4 of a teaspoon of KNO3 and a pinch (about half the size of a grain of rice) of KH2PO4 once a week. Add about 5ml of a liquid fert (or whatever the CSM equivilent is) once a week. KNO3 and KH2PO4 should provide sufficient potassium.The key to non Co2 methods is the no water change and good plant bio mass.

If you get the Co2 and light up then it's a different ball game. Plants will able to grow much faster and thereby will consume nutrients at a higher and faster rate. Then you'll be into daily dosing and really making use of the ingredients you have.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi Bensaf, thanks for making such an informative response !

Although my nutrient demand is not high, I'd still like to correct any deficiency if I can to promote healthy growth of the plants..

"Without the PO4 the rest of the ingredients will have a greatly reduced effect." - Should I be getting a phosphate test kit ?

"The other 2 may have some uses." - what I hoped you'd say. I suspected a lack of potassium and iron in my last tank, I will get the nitrates down a bit thru waterchanges, then add. With the rams in there now, I think a series of small frequent waterchanges...

I'm not sure what type of traces elements, I just know it came from a hydroponic shop... I can inquire further into that.

I do run a hagen co2 but with approx 5pm you wouldn't know it. It made a huge difference in my 29 gal with approx 5ppm, now trying to push the 40 gal.. Tom Barr sent me a couple suggestions which I'll be working on. The higher nitrates also because I've worked so much on the tank swap and such, that I've slacked on water changes.. There is not much more room for plants (maybe along the back) More slow growing plants in here now..

Here's my stock, I will add a pic.. As for fish, the tank is very understocked.
7 swordplants - amazonicus, bleheri, ozelot
crypts - 2 undulata, 2 ballansae, 1 mother plant crypt x willisii, 8 baby willisii, 2 unknown crypts, probably wendti.
Fast growing - hornwort, egeria densa, asian ambulia, brazilian ivy, unknown rotala (rejean ?) the rotala being pulled.
1 java fern lace.
dwarf sag, tall dwarf sag, corkscrew val, e tenellus just added.
2 cardinal flower (a high light plant that has shot up 2 inches with new leaves since being added to the tank, compliments of Crazygar)
There is not really room for more plants unless I can squeeze some sag or val along the back wall. Once this tank fills in with what's in it, I'll be pulling alot out or the smaller plants will be all in the shade..

I had more questons etc Bensaf and want to pick your brain some more if that's ok, I started this at work earlier but a busy day... Will check in shortly.
Thanks !




Last edited by DaFishMan at 24-Aug-2005 16:44

The Amazon Nut...

Question,
I read somewhere that if sufficient nutrients are in the water then root tabs are not necessary as the plants will take them in thru the leaves.. Is there truth to this ? I'd think that heavy root feeders such as crypts and swords would still need some form of root tab.. I have Jobes plant spikes which I used to break into quarters.. I have not done this yet in the new tank and it's a fairly fresh substrate lacking organic substance. Should I put some root tabs in or concentrate on the water first ?

The Amazon Nut...

"Without the PO4 the rest of the ingredients will have a greatly reduced effect." - Should I be getting a phosphate test kit ?

If you are missing just one nutrient it limits the plants ability to grow. You can add as much of the others as you like but it won't have any real effect as the missing nutrient limits the plants ability to uptake the rest.

With phosphate the most dramatic effect will be on the plants uptake of nitrate. Phosphate allows plants to suck up nitrates much quicker.

You seem to have good amount of plants. I'm not sure if the nitrates you have is due to slow growth due to lack of light/co2, high fish load or a deficiency slowing plant growth ? Although 25ppm wouldn't be considered too high in a planted tank.

As I mentioned no water changes is the way to go on a non Co2 tank. I'd rather reduce the nitrates by getting the plants to it rather than thru water changes.

If there is a dificiency where would it be ? My money would be on either the phosphate or potassium.You could get a test kit and check you PO4 levels or you could just add some phosphate and see if there's an improvement. With 25ppm of Nitrate a PO4 level of 2ppm wouldn't be an issue. Without a test kit you should be able to add about 0.5ppm worth of PO4 with no ill efeects. If your PO4 had bottomed out the 0.5ppm would be enough to make the plants happy.See how the plants react and if the NO3 levels drop. This will tell you a lot.

Potassium is possible as it's usually short. Tap water doesn't have much and you won't get any from the fish or food. If you are seeing any small holes/brown spots on the older leaves you could be short. If not then it should be ok and I'd be back to the phosphate. The reason I said go ahead and add is that Potassium levels should be quite high about 20ppm, also it's not something that's going to give algae problems so it can be pushed much higher without problems. It's not something you can test for so I normally say just go ahead and add some. It may not make any improvement but it ain't going to hurt anything either.

There's also the chance you don't have 25ppm of NO3. Most test kits are crap quite frankly. I ran into problems with test kits months ago. I had one telling me I had 15ppm and another reading almost zero. I stopped adding KNO3 and the plants nose dived. All sorts of problems. Added back the KNO3 the plants perked up. I tossed those kits in the back of drawer and never touch them. The plants tell me all I need to know about Nitrates. I can tell my No3 level more accurately by looking at the color of my Macrandra leaves or the condition of the older leaves on hygro. Bright red leaves on Rotala and yellowing on the old hygro leaves I know my NO3 is too low. More orange on the Rotala I know the No3 is higher. I'll never touch a nitrate test kit again. Agian you could add about 5ppm of KNO3 and see how the plants react.

Lastly find out what's in that micro fert. You need something with a good range of micros especially Iron.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I read somewhere that if sufficient nutrients are in the water then root tabs are not necessary as the plants will take them in thru the leaves.

Studies show that aquatic plants will pull about 95% of their nutrient needs through their leaves. Even the "heavy root feeders" . They will only use the roots if the water column is lean. This why using root tabs can seem beneficial. It probably just means the water column is lean.

I don't bother with root ferts. I only dose the water column. My swords crypts always seem to react better to water column fertilization.

A lot of it goes back to the myth of nitrates and phosphates causing algae and people wanting to bury them in the substrate.

But for starting up a new tank a sprinkling of peat or a handful of mulm from an old tank works wonders.This is more to do with culturing bacteria though.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi there !

The tank is very understocked, with 4 german blue rams, 3 adult guppys, 2 adult platys, 8 baby platys, 2 BN pleco, 7 amano shrimp, just traded off 4 medium platys. And people lined up to take more platys off my hands when they grow a bit. Soon as I knew I wanted German Blue Rams with attempt to breed, I re-homed alot of fish..

Excess nitrates perhaps me lazy on the water changes ?
There is hair algae on the dwarf sag for about a week, would this be an indication of exess P04 (Phosphates) and N03 (Nitrates) ? I use my N03 test almost weekly, I'm hoping it's ok.. 10ppm in my other tank.

Waiting to hear back on the brand name etc on the chelated trace nutrients.. Soon as I get answer I'll post.

If I need P04, how would I add it ? I tried looking this up but not too much luck there.

The Amazon Nut...

Excess nitrates perhaps me lazy on the water changes ?

More then likely stalled plant growth rather than lack of WC's. With that amount of plants and a light fish load nitrate should be low. Dodgy test kit ? BTW forget to mention you can test the test kit. Mix up a known solution with tap and the KNO3. Test, see if the result matches the amount of nitrate you put in. You can find a downloadable dosage calculator here http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm Very handy.

There is hair algae on the dwarf sag for about a week, would this be an indication of exess P04 (Phosphates) and N03 (Nitrates) ?

Ya missing what I'm saying ? Excess nutrients won't cause algae. Stalled plant growth because of a lack of nutrients will. Almost every time.

I use my N03 test almost weekly, I'm hoping it's ok.. 10ppm in my other tank.

As I said I threw mine in the bin.

If I need P04, how would I add it ? I tried looking this up but not too much luck there.

Use the dosage calculator I linked above. Pick the one you can download onto your desktop. Easier to use and it's always there when you need it. You can add the powder straight into the tank or make a diluted solution. When using the calculator make sure to pick the correct option for making a solution or adding dry to tank. You click on one or the other and it will calaculate accordingly.


Last edited by bensaf at 25-Aug-2005 21:25

Last edited by bensaf at 25-Aug-2005 21:28

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks for being patient with me Bensaf while I attempt to absorb and make sense of all the new info.. You are helping me alot.. This tank is quite different from my last setup. Now I'm challenged to learn new things.

"Ya missing what I'm saying ? Excess nutrients won't cause algae. Stalled plant growth because of a lack of nutrients will. Almost every time." - I hear you ! LOL
Ok, time to download the calculator and get this on the go.

The Amazon Nut...

Dosed 1 teaspoon (6 grams) K2S04 p sulfate= 17.84ppm
powder direct into the tank.

Chelated trace element, quarter teaspoon dissolved into 2 cups of warm water, stirred until dissolved and poured into the tank. (coudn't find exact dosage being I don't have a gram scale, just kinda winged it)

Didn't add anything else..

Do I need P04, or....
Mono Potassium Phosphate. KH2PO4 ? I have neither.

Fleet enema as a source of P04 ?
That's kinda poopy... ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/DaFishMan/c01.jpg

Last edited by DaFishMan at 27-Aug-2005 23:55

The Amazon Nut...