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I have heard from my friend who owns tetras that they could tolerate a temperature range of around 60. He also told me it survived for weeks without any problems I think. Since I know its a tropical fish, is that really possible that they could tolerate that temperature range.

McCollum

I'll tell you about MY fish! This winter we had a record ice storm & most of the town was without electric including us. We had to abandon the house for about a week. We threw blankets over the aquarium before leaving. It's a 55 gal.. It got so cold in here when we were gone that eventually ice began to form on the top.

When the electric was restored & we moved back in, I could hardly believe some fish survived!

(I had 6 emerald cories & 6 bronze cories.) 4 bronze survived.
I had 7 zebra danios & they all survived.
I had 3 redeyed tetras & they all survived.
I had one common pleco & it survived.

All the other fish I had were dead. And that is what I know about temperature change........ except the cories spawned within a week of having heat again. They say a temperature drop will encourage that. Ummmmm they HAD one.
....................
PS- The tetras I had that did NOT survive were neons & glo-lights.

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fish patty, sorry to hear about your loss. But, I just wanted to ask that since you abandoned the house it is safe to assume that the filters were off along with the heaters? If so, I suspect it wasn't just the temperature drop that did your fish in.

To the OP. Is it really possible? Sure, the fish could survive down at those temperatures, but are they going to thrive? I doubt it. And that is really the accomplishment of a really good fishkeeper. Not just having their fish survive, i.e. not die, but having the fish thrive and live long full happy healthy lives. And since these are tropical fish, in order to have long full happy lives, they need tropical temperatures. Tropical fish kept at sub-tropical temperatures will be significantly weakened immune systems, for example, so if a disease were ever to present itself, the fish would be much less likely to be able to fight it off.

The temperature ranges quoted for most fishes are typical maintenance ranges (usually including breeding temperatures, which for Characins tend to be at the upper end of the scale), but of course these figures are not fixed in stone. Some individuals will adapt better to temperature extremes than others, which of course allows some individuals to survive when some major natural upheaval (e.g., big earthquake dumping them and their body of water somewhere unusual) takes place. That's how we ended up with the huge diversity of Cichlids in the Rift Lakes - their riverine ancestors suddenly found themselves in a totally new situation as a result of the fun and frolics involved with plate tectonics. Those fishes that were unable to adapt to having been dumped into the newly formed Rift Lakes died out, while those that were able to adapt survived, bred and began undergoing spectacular species radiation as new niches presented themselves to be occupied. Over time, they've had to adapt to increasing hardness and increasingly alkaline pH, but they've done so, and provided aquarists with a SUPERB selection of Cichlid fishes to keep in aquaria as a wholly unintended by-product of this.

Let's hypothesise for a moment, and pretend that bits of South America are moving northwards. (The major motion is actually away from Africa at the rate of about 1 millimetre per year, but let's play some games here). Let's assume that what is now Venezuela is steadily heading north, and that in a few million years' time, it'll crash into Florida, taking a large chunk of Cuba along for the ride. This will bring a host of Characoid fishes north, which will thus become part of the fauna of the USA (always assuming that bits of the USA aren't doing a similar act of course, resulting in a map very different from today's). Those characoids will have to adapt to different climatic conditions as their chunk of Venezuela moves, but they'll have a few million years to get used to this - it's not as if Venezuela is going to be paying Florida a visit any quicker even if it IS on a northward moving tectonic plate!

A much quicker way in which some of our South American Characoids could find themselves in a vastly different environment is if, for example, some of them end up trapped in an isolated lake and propelled to a higher elevation above sea level by a series of mega-earthquakes - while this is not likely to happen as far as I can tell any time soon, such a possibility isn't ruled out by the laws of plate tectonics if the requisite plates are in place to create a new mountain range (see India and the Himalayas for an example of how this has actually been done in real life). Now again, we're looking at up to several thousand years as a MINIMUM timeframe for this, so our Characoids still have a reasonable amount of time to adapt, but any individuals that have a preference for sauna-like conditions are going to die out in our hypothetical "Lake Titicaca Mark 2". Those individuals with a better tolerance of low temperatures are going to be the ones that survive and produce future generations, and eventually, they'll end up as a new species of montane-inhabiting Characoid in about a million years or so.

Where is all this leading us? There is built in variation of tolerance to various environmental parameters within a population of a fish species - some will be able to stand increasing acidity better than others, some will conversely be better able to tolerate increasing alkalinity, and so forth. While the maintenance figures quoted in the textbooks are perfectly valid, they are mean temperature ranges for the species in question, and there will always be individuals that are 'outliers' within that population whose tolerance extends beyond the mean range, in one direction or another (some preferring cooler, some warmer water) and some may even be sufficiently robust, in a species whose mean range is 70 to 80 degrees F, to move as far out as 60 degrees F or 90 degrees F. But those outliers will be the exception rather than the rule - they'll be the built-in variation within the species that gives that species some capacity to continue surviving should a natural disaster impose a sudden environmental change upon them. Now of course, with South American fishes, they've been enjoying more or less tropical or subtropical conditions for 50 million years as a result of South America always being at the appropriate latitudes when it split from Africa, and so most of those fishes, having experienced relatively little variation from tropical conditions, will be hard pressed to adapt to a sudden change to temperate conditions, for example. But, the variation within a species allows for migration to new conditions over time as tectonic plates shuffle the continents around, and confers at least some capability to survive abnormal conditions when the weather decides to deliver those conditions every now and again.

So, even though South American fishes, for example, have enjoyed the balmy tropical conditions of equatorial latitudes for 50 million years, and are therefore unlikely to adapt quickly to a move to temperate latitudes, they do possess some ability to survive occasional hiccups in the weather that either dumps unexpectedly cold air over their watercourses, or unexpectedly warm air. Hence, it is possible for our fishes to survive temperature drops outside the mean maintenance ranges for limited periods. However, there's a BIG difference between surviving a one-off drop because, say, there's been a power cut and the tank has dropped to 60 degrees F for a couple of hours before the engineers fix the power cables, and surviving a sustained temperature drop outside the mean temperature range that has been brought on suddenly.

There are some fishes that possess wide temperature ranges - the Paradise Fish was the first tropical fish domesticated, way back in 1868 by Le Charbonnier, precisely because it was a tough, adaptable fish. It has a temperature range of 50 to 90 degrees F, can survive polluted water that would kill other fishes in hours, and has the ability to breathe atmospheric air, so it was capable of surviving in aquaria here in Europe in 1868 in an era before modern environmental control technology had been invented. Another fish, introduced much later to the hobby, has an even wider temperature range in the wild - the White Cloud Mountain Minnow has perhaps the widest temperature range of all, an amazing span from a low of 40 degrees F to a high of 90 degrees F, and some individuals will survive temperatures exceeding 100 degrees F at the top end of the scale. The fact that they happen to be happiest at 60 to 80 is reflected by their continued thriving and spawning when the temperatures are less extreme.

The corollary of this (yet another vast dissertation from yours truly) is that the aquarist is advised NOT to take a fish outside its mean maintenance temperature range as an intentional act. Accidents beyond the aquarist's control, such as power cuts or freak weather conditions, are likely to be more survivable if the aquarist has cared for his fishes diligently prior to the disastrous happening, and not subjected them to undue stresses over and above those that they would normally experience as part of their daily lives. Of course, careful choices of such parameters as the species being integrated into the aquarium, so that our pet fishes are freed from the stresses involved in escaping predators or bad tempered territorial bullies that they are ill equipped to cope with, all helps in this matter, so that when the occasional disaster strikes, that natural variation built into the species may come into play in our favour and allow at least some of our fishes to survive the disaster. Of course, with delicate, specialised fishes (Discus, Chocolate Gouramis and the like) a power cut is likely to involve fairly horrendous attrition if special measures are not in place to deal with it (anyone with a large and valuable fish collection is advised to buy a two-stroke generator and keep a stock of fuel handy to keep such a collection alive in the event of a major power failure) but for the majority of our fishes, even a calimity of this kind can be survivable if [1] we plan ahead for it, and [2] we care for our fishes diligently in the interim. Indeed, with respect to this very question of migrating a fish to a temperature range outside the norm for that species, the venerable Innes book once again comes up trumps and, after explaining on page 12 that fishes are used to experiencing natural variations in temperature, says the following:

It is to be hoped that these unorthodox [at the time innes wrote his book] opinions will give no one the idea that it is a workable idea to naturalise fishes to a new climatic range. That is an old experiment which has always failed.

Sometimes the old words are the wisest.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I would agree about that. The temperature range that they usually thrive in aren't set and stone. I must believe that its more of the theory of darwinism. Its those that could survive and adapt at that temperature range are the fittest. While those who are unfit die off early and don't pass on their next generation. I guess it was quite a coincidence that my friend had them for some months and they were able to survive.

McCollum

Id agree with cal, temperature ranges can only be conquered multigenerationally, and that requires and advanced form of evolution namely captive selective breeding. Chucking just any fish in a temperature unsuited to its biological need is death for 99.9 percent of specimens. Its not just the immediate fish biology that is of corcern but also more complex issues such as the need for certann levels of saturated gas, and then theres finer aspects still, like digestive efficiency, often if the gut fauna of a fish cannot survive, neither will the fish, and sometimes the range of sybiotic organisms tolerances have to be considered too. Technically a lot of fish could be considered a colony organism, as indeed we ourselves are.

While its acknowledged that fish can be adaptable, its a question of evolutionary time. Thats what a lot of global warming concern is about , particularly as regards the oceans. We as humans see time in minutes and seconds, and as such how we change things is instant in evolutionary terms. True stable adaptation and respeciation and redistribution typically takes several thousand years. As far as average temperature recommendations are concerned, they are there with a mind to keeping fish alive and not pushing the tolerance limits. God knows enough beginners kill their fish by getting the temperatures wrong, and that is the norm rather than these exceptional stories we hear of when fish have survived a few weeks of really extreme temperatures. You really have to count the average stats for fish deaths, and not push the extremes for good fishkeeping. Because some fish do survive such bad conditions, we cant expect the majority to. In aquaria we dont have to worry about the collapsing of food chains as we do in nature, so occassionally we are in a priviledged position to effect the beginning of respeciation for adaptability. Most attempts though, are very short sighted, and a bit irresponsible.

Most fish have evolved into their niches in a time longer than the whole of human civilisation. One person without the aid of genetic modification technology isnt going to be able to change that in a several lifetimes. All we can do is tamper for a bit. Is it worth it? I mean seriously , for the sake of a 10 buck heater and setting it to 75f, is it worth it?

Yes Bignose, with no electric, the filter was off too. Yes, I'm sure that contributed significantly to the loss.

fish patty,
Im surprised you didnt bag your fish and take them with you. I would have.


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Sneaky- We went to a motel room. I would have just ended up watching them die in the bag. We didn't know how long the electric was going to be off. We thought they would be better off just left where they were till it came back on.

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I would never take any Characin below 70 deg F, although there are a few (Neons, Red Phantoms, regular Bloodfins, Buenos Aires tetras) that apparently prefer temperatures a bit cooler than your average tropical (about 72 deg). Frankly, most aquarium Tetras -- even the tougher ones -- are sufficiently delicate that I would never tempt fate by subjecting them to lower temperatures than necessary.

I still would have taken my fish.
An air stone, heater, a 5 gallon bucket or tote bin,
and water changes in the motel room.


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To be truthful Sneaky........ I just wasn't in any frame of mind to contend with fish at the time. I was literally freezing when someone came to rescue us. I had a coat & scarf & cap & gloves on & was still shivering so much that my insides were beginning to hurt. I wasn't thinking very clearly either. I was not only leaving behind a 55 gal. tank full of fish, but 4 dogs, 6 cats, 1 rabbit, 1 parakeet & two parrots. Our minds were already boggled trying to contemplate what to do with everything. We ended up just trying to make them all as warm & comfortable as possible.

In the end, I admit that I was just primarily concerned about our own survival. We weren't prepared for any of that. I was not in any kind of shape to partially disrobe & fish through a 55 gal. tank trying to catch fish.

As it turned out, the electric in the motel room only worked about half the time anyway.
If you would have taken your fish in the same situation as I was in than I have to take my hat off to ya! Cause I just wasn't up to the task.



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Where in the states are you Patty? I'm sorry to hear about the problems you had with the cold and electricity.
We had the same problems here last year, but atleast we don't even come close to the cold you have....
Did your other animals make it?

Take care,
Phil

fish patty i guess you live in canada like me were else could a ice storm happen besides alaska

33 gallon 7 neon tetras-5 platys-3 bleeding heart tetras-2 corys-1 rainbow shark-2 L83 gibby plecos

Well platy boy.........an ice storm can happen in Oklahoma & the surrounding states.

No one here is old enough to remember such a bad ice storm as we had this winter. We were in a state of emergency for awhile & then declared a disaster area & FEMA came in.
I believe I have two old posts on it in the recovery room.

Yes philipv, all the other animals made it cause my hubby somehow made it back here everyday to feed & water them & let the dogs out. He usually had to chop his way in. We have a 1/4 mi. long driveway lined with trees. The heavy ice caused limbs to break off & fall in the driveway about everyday.

He covered the bird cages with blankets & even put waded up sheets in there for them to cuddle up to. He actually saw one bird doing it.

There's many stories around here about the damage dogs did to the owners houses while being cooped up. Our Great Dane has a bladder problem. Other than that she had fun tearing up a feather pillow. But the house wasn't too drafty & all limbs that fell missed the house........ so we were lucky.

Hubby even spent one night here with three of the dogs sleeping on him. I believe that's what they call a, "three dog night" up there in Alaska.

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