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Acidrain, when I bought my ram...it was sold as a South American Ram. So different people call them different names. On FP I've only heard of them as German Rams...so thats what I call them.

Sneaky: Are you sure it would be ok for her to have 4 angels and 4 rams in a 46 gallon tank. Sounds like trouble to me. Either the angels or rams could have problems...most likely with each other. Also a 46 gallon doesnt seem big enough for all of those territorial fish.

Another thing is if you put 4 angels in a 46 gallon, it will make the tank look very small. Not really a good thing. I would be hesitant in putting that many, along with 4 rams in your tank...but just my opinion.

*Kristin*

I recommend Rummynose Tetra's with Angels, but my concern is that 3 Clown Loaches will need a bigger tank in the future.


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3x Dime/Quarter Sized Koi or Black Viel Angels
4x Rams or a peaceful school of tetra
3x Clown Loaches....

I think this would be fine. Rams are bottom fish, angels are mid water fish. I have no troubles with my rams and angels and discus at all. They may be territorial but are nowhere near aggressive.


Other bottom dwellers I have considered were:
A trio of Rainbow Sharks - Absolutely not. Rainbow sharks should be kept alone, except in very very large tanks. They can and likely will kill each other.

Some Koolie Loaches -Kuhli loaches would be a good choice instead of Clowns. You could easily do 6-8 kuhlis instead of the 3 clowns.

One Lace Catfish - Synodontis Eupterus grow to 8 inches or more. They really need at least 75g of space, and they grow Fast!

A duo of Pictus Catfish- this is possible if you subtract the clowns and the rams.

six corys - again, you would need to subtract the clowns or the rams. All these fish are bottom swimmers, and need their space.

Girlie Girl - I honestly dont think 4 angels and 4 rams in a 46g tank is too much. I dont exactly believe in stocking rules, and he is planning on upgrading in about 2 years time.
However, I still do think the clowns dont really fit well in a 46g tank.

Have you considered maybe holding off on the clowns till you do get a bigger tank, then you could plan accordingly for the desire to have clowns with what you can afford/fit in your house?
Not to rule them out, but just to put them in the future.
Example, I want to have Pictus cats, but they are in the future after all my bottom feeders pass on from old age sort of thing.


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Inkling, it might actually be a good idea to combine Rams with Clown Loaches -- Rams definitely require distinctly warmer water than your usual tropical fish to stay healthy and resist disease (about 84 deg F., or 29 C), and Clown Loaches also like that high temperature (although they tolerate ordinary temperatures well). But I DON'T know how well Angelfish would put up with such warm water. (Bettas would, although male bettas might possibly be vulnerable to fin-nipping. Female bettas seem to get along fine in community tanks.)

I had never had a problum with over aggressive rainbows. I used to have an albino duo and a black one togeter in a 20 gal and they did well.

The only way I would do corys instead of clowns is if I found Panda Corys, which isnt likely in my area. I've had so many people tell me to say no to the clowns and go with something else, and those were the alternatives I listed. If a lace catfish grows to 8" or longer and I put one in my tank instead of clowns would it need a 75 g???

Inky

You could try to find some online.

[link=http://www.liveaquaria.com]http://www.liveaquaria.com" style="COLOR: #00FFFF[/link] Has 'em. They cost a bit, and of course there is shipping, but I have heard good things about liveaquaria's shipping of fish.

I might have to do that. There prices arn't bad.

6 Pandas @ 4.99 = $30.00
3 Viel Angels (2 Marble and 1 smokey lepord) @ 6.99 = $21.00

Unfortunatly that is $51.00 of fish. I found blue rams at a local store for $5 each, and yellow ones for $7.50. It all adds up.

I may have to go with the Panda school instead of the loaches... the pandas are too cute!

Inky

$5 is great for a blue ram IMO. I paid $12 for mine.
The prices for fish are not so bad online...its the shipping that gets you. Usually shipping runs about $25-30 on most sites.
I would consider buying fish online if I absolutely wanted a certain kind that I couldn't find anywhere else. I thought I was going to have to buy pandas online, but I got lucky and found them at Walmart of all places. They are still alive today though..the most recent Walmart panda additions have been in there for 2 weeks now.
Good luck with your tank...and please post pictures when you get it set up!

*Kristin*

walmart fish are actually quite hardy as compared to alot of the other stores I went too. ^_^


I found one place with a name plate for Panda Corys, $2.50 but once they getthem they are gone! thats the way Pandas are around here


I should have some pics up eventually, camra troubles....

Inky

Oh, right now I have an apartment and am in my second year of college. The 46 gal will be ready to be stocked in about 2 weeks (slight delay due to a family emergency) Anyway, I plan on saving my money so that when I get a bigger apartment or my first house I can upgrade (or if something happens with my roommate) Either way, in about 2 years time I'll have the money for the 100 gal+ and a bigger apartment. It'll work out.

If I don't go with clowns, what are of my options would be the best one? The only corys I am really fond of are Pandas, and I don't think I'll find them anywhere .

Thanks!

Inky

I think Im going to omit the ABF, simply because in the long run it will require alot of care, and I work and go to school (12 credit hrs) Plus, I don't want to overcrowd the tank. I was thinking

3x Dime/Quarter Sized Koi or Black Viel Angels
4x Rams or a peaceful school of tetra
3x Clown Loaches....

Other bottom dwellers I have considered were:

A trio of Rainbow Sharks or
Some Koolie Loaches or
One Lace Catfish or
A duo of Pictus Catfish or
six corys

I was set on clown loaches because they would add color and are slow growers, so it would be awhile before I would need an upgrade. As previously stated, I will most likely upgrade within 2 years, finances premitting (Im at a bit of a rough spot now)

If I were to omit the clown loaches, which of my other choices would you recommend?

I have alot of caves in my tank, are there any cave dwelling tetras that might be good for the tank?? (I wish I had a pic)


Inky

Up here in Canada, I only ever see them sold as "Blue Rams" or "Gold Rams" for their gold color morph. They sell bolivian rams as "Crown Ruby Cichlids" usually.
I would say that this stocking:
1 ABF
4 Angels
3 Clown Loaches
4 Rams
That would be fully stocked, and definetly you will need to upgrade in about 2 years time.
As I suggested before, perhaps you could consider instead of clown loaches, going with a smaller loach more suited to your tank now and permanently. Queen Loaches look very similar, behave similarly, and will not outgrow your tank.

As for Rams, I wouldnt worry about gender too much, as long as all 4 werent males. I keep 5 Bolivian Rams, in a group of 2 males and 3 females, and this works out great.
I would highly recommend Bolivian Rams because not only are the great looking, have excellent personalities, and have great social behaviours, but they are less sensitive than their Blue cousins, and thought slightly larger, are far more tolerant of water conditions.


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First of all ... GirlieGirl, I know that it's customary among American aqurists in particular to refer to the fish as a 'German Ram', but it's a usage I discourage for the simple reason that the fish could NEVER survive in the wild in a German river or lake! I prefer 'Venezuelan Ram' because that's where it originates from!

Cali, it is a common name, that is in use over the entire world. Not just the Americans. Heck, they are listed on my SA shippers orders as German Rams. This is the name that the SA's use as well.
And changing it to something you think is a more appropriate name, just causes confusion. Ok, you name it for the country it comes from, someone else may want to just call it a SA Ram, because it comes from SA. Some one else may want to call it "the name of the river it came from" Ram, and so on. Before long, this fish has 15 different common names, and no one knows what the heck anyone is talking about, and yet they are all talking about the same fish. I know this sounds confusing, and it is. But that is the point.

Lets just use the common name people know fish by, or their scientific names. As making up more common names on fish will become more confusing.

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

I've got 10 black neons with my angels. I think you should also look at something that will look good with your aquascaping. The back of my tanks is painted black to the neons really stand out with their gold stripe glowing against the black tank.

James

First of all ... GirlieGirl, I know that it's customary among American aqurists in particular to refer to the fish as a 'German Ram', but it's a usage I discourage for the simple reason that the fish could NEVER survive in the wild in a German river or lake! I prefer 'Venezuelan Ram' because that's where it originates from!

Next, Inkling ... if you're thinking of going with Venezuelan Rams as part of your stocking, watch them carefully. Your best bet is to have one male and numerous females if you have more than one, because unless your tank is sufficiently spacious, two males will beat each other up something chronic. A mistake I made back in 1995 (sigh). I'd also watch that any Venezuelan Rams you put in there don't pick fights with your Angels. In a large enough aquarium, they'll get along, but remember, the golden rule with ALL Cichlids, even supposedly 'peaceful' ones, is give them space. A rule that becomes all the more imperative when you pick strongly territorial species, and Rams can be fairly territorial with each other.

Your BIG problem here will be picking the correct stock at the dealer's. If the stock at the dealer's are juveniles, they won't have differentiated visibly into male and female (the males have long extensions to the first hard dorsal rays when mature, which are lacking in the females) and the only way of guaranteeing to get a pair if you want that is to raise six or so juveniles and offload the surplus once a pair forms. If you want a pair of Rams so that they can breed, however, they'll cease getting along with the Angels once they start spawning!

If you only want one Ram, then that fish should coexist with angels as GirlieGirl's does, but then you have the problem that if you have more than one Angel, and they pair off for spawning, they may well start turning on the Ram as a threat to their offspring. Welcome to the wonderful world of territorial Cichlids

If I were you, I'd try and hunt around for a fish called Anomalochromis thomasi, which is the ideal beginner's Cichlid, as it's among the most peaceful of all Cichlid species, has gorgeous colours when breeding, and will get along fine with a vast range of other 'mainstream' community fishes including your Tetra choices.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

(EDIT TO POST ABOVE)

This is what I am thinking:

1x African Butterfly Fish
3x Koi or Black Vail Angelfish (Small)
3x Clown Loaches
4x? Rams? Small Tetras? Something Else?

I really like the Angels, and wouldnt mind breeding them ^_^ When the fish start to get bigger I will be upgrading the tank (Hopefully not for at least 2 yrs)

What do you think?

Inky

How many rams should I put in there? ^_^ This is what I am thinking:
(All fish will be the smallest juvinile size that I can find them)
1x African Butterfly Fish
1x Angel (I would like to add more but I was advised aganst it)
Some of the pretty rams I was misinformed about (Dont they school?)
3x Clown Loaches

I will probubly be upgrading my tank again within the next five years, if not sooner (Still a poor college student, and currently jobless, ugh)

Let me know, and I always apreciate the help!!


Inky

Rams, Angels, Corydoras & Tetras are all South American fish & with a bit of reading, searching & right choosing, they will all stay together.



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It is also called a German Ram (right Cali? ). If so then I have a female German Ram in my 55g with an Angel and they are fine. No aggression what so ever. I don't even think they know each other exists. Rams are dwarf cichlids and much more peaceful than other cichlids. Angels are also pretty peaceful. So if it was a German Ram you saw then it is ok to put it with an Angel.
German Rams are pretty sensitive so make sure your water is very clean. You may have to do more frequent water changes and gravel vacs with the Ram. Mine has done great. She even got ich about a week after I got her and came through fine. Good luck!

*Kristin*

Seriously? The sign at the pet store said High-fin _____ Tetra! Them petstore folk!

...Anyway, My bad. They probubly wouldn't go with angels, would they? If they would please let me know!

Inky