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I was over at my mother in laws tonight and i found one of my bolivians wrapped round the filter intake. The bolivian didnt look to be dead nor any damage to their body. i prised the bolivian off the intake and held it in my hand for a while in the water to see if i could see any thing. I didnt find anything wrong, the bolivian started to breathe again. i currently have the bolivian in a net in the tank. It is currently trying to swim around but the fish is arched like its still wrapped round the intake.

Params

Ammonia = 0
Nitrites = 0
Nitriates = 5

I did a 25% Wc today. All the fish were fine before this. only thing i can think of is shock of somesort. I have noticed that the temp 2 degrees different from one end of the tank to the other and im thinking that is because the heater is on one end of the tank. However i have seen plenty of FP' tanks like this so im hoping this is not the problem and its been like this for quite a number of weeks with no problem at all.

Any Ideas?

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Well I spoke with the inlaws this morning, They found the Bolivian floating im sorry to say. Still I would like thoughts on what might have caused this issue. Thanks

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

I think a tank temp with 2 degrees difference from one end to the other is more an issue with flow rather than heating, and if the flow is that low then oxygenation wont be great either.

Heaters should really be placed near outflow or inflow to ensure the warmth is pumped around the tank, and if there is a flow level that low there will be eddies of both temperature and gas. Perhaps the old mother in law needs to reposition the heater or find a filter with better flow, or add more oxygenators. Even if a heater is underrated for the job, the tank temp should still be even , even if its too low. Sounds like lack of water movement is the issue. Maybe just another small powerhead or something? I dont think another heater will help, this is about getting the temps spread around. There is something fundamentally wrong with the thermodynamic of the tank.

Sounds to me like he was on low oxygen and simply didnt have the muscular energy to get off a filter or the oxgen needed for tissue repair and recovery. Sounds like he died of the complications if bruising and cramp, and general gaseous debilitation. Basically exhaustion combined with injury. I wouldnt be surprised if low flow is the problem, that the substrate is probably releasing hydrogen sulphide occassionally too. A lot of very tranquil looking tanks can be death traps for some species.

Sorry for the loss, I doubt there was a great deal that could be done for him. Rams often come from areas of high oxygen saturation because of the massive surface to volume ratio and the massive amount of local plantlife in the areas they occur, even though the temps can be surprisingly high, thus reducing the oxygen saturation a little. The damage was long since done , before you arrived on the scene, and you cant always fix that sort of thing overnight. He would probably have taken weeks to be brought back into a good metabolic level of performance for his specues.

LHG, Thanks for your input I really appreciate it. I understand what you are saying and I will move the heater to the other side of the tank so it is under the flow of the HOB.

The HOB i have on the tank is a AquaClear 300, the flow is 2/3rds going. The tank has been setup this way for at 2 months. I also have an internal Fluval Filter on the other side of the tank where the filter is with a powerhead moving the water around. I need that for my bolbitis Fern.

However I am willing to re-evaluate my flow situation on your advice. Can you help me further with this?

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Of course, might save a lot of words though if you can post a pic of where the filters etc are mounted in the tank in relation to the decor etc, so perhaps a top 3/4 view?

Sometimes two filters in the opposing directions causes flows to hit and points of stagnation in certain areas, often its better to mount them so that their flow is opposite but misses,say one filter at the back left pointing right acroos the back panel, and another at the front right pointing to the front panel with thre flow going left , thus creating a gentle tankwide vortex that circulates nutrients and gases evenly. This of course depends on the location of tank decor and and plants ,so its probably better to take a look at the tank first.

Mr LHG, thanks for replying back to my post. I Acutally have pictures posted in the Planted Aquaria section of the forum.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/34617.1.htm?24#

But after talking to the chat this morning and listening with the group i have decided to go back to the old way. Right now i have both HOB and the Internal Filter facing forward. I am going to move the heater back to the back glass, turn the internal 90 degrees and raise it back to the top of the tank for water agitation and also lower the water level a little to allow for more aggitation over there by the HOB. please let me know what you think of that?

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Yeah, sounds like that should probably do the trick. There has to be a compromise when keeping fish with plants, oftentimes whats good for plants isnt good for fish and vice versa. Seing as the fish have sentience and their loss more serious, I tend to err on the side of the fish. A lot of serious plant fans keep their fish on the limit of survivable conditions by necessity of gaseous balance and stillness for the plants, and that doesnt suit fish unless there is real understocking. With labyrinth fish etc,it barely matters, but with more sensitive fish like rams , sometimes the balance has to be redressed in definate favour of the fish. Plant fans often forget the fish in their tanks, but to me, the plants are for the fish, so to be safe exclude plants that cant take flow, and its helpful if they dont necessarily need co2, as that adds all sorts of complications, especially when medicines may need to be used. The practise of excluding oxygenation and the inclusion of co2 systems can be very counterproductive to fish health. Depends on the species, the size of the tank. People with co2 systems are on average more likely to experience tank crashes and bacterial blooms and low oxygenation than even those keepers who run a slight overstock.

Thanks mr LHG

I am going to go down there tomorrow and fix that problem. I Appreciate all your advice and that of the chat forum today. Thanks again

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Well guys it happened again.

Last night i changed the water and i went down today and found another dead ram in my tank. It was alot more gone that the previous Ram. So im starting to think its the water changes. Any more ideas on this?

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

fm, I sure wish I had something to offer other than my most sincere condolences, that is a huge drag, mystery losses of your Rams... I would be so bumming... I hope you can figure it out... sorry I don't have more to add...

Good luck!

Is the water change temp the same as the tank or cooler? Sometimes rams dont take temperature changes too well. Possible ph rise with the changes?

Can you post a piccy of the rams so I can get a sense of how theyre looking? Sometimes theyre martyrs to intestinal protozoa too, and its hard to explain, but once youve seen it in them before, even without a definate symptom, you can kinda tell. I always find that rams are really readable. Sounds odd I know, indulge me.

LHG

There is a slight change in water temperature when i change the water but usually only a few degrees. As we all know we cant get the temp exact. Plus its only a 20% change so its not all that much of a difference. As far as pics are concerned i have them on my Posting in the Planted Forum under 35 gallon log.

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Did notice few evaporated drops on the side on the tank leaving quite a ounced whiteness, possibly too high in the dissolved solids, a little too high hardness in the water?

Try a shot of blackwater extract and see if they pick up.

LHG, What is blackwater extract?

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Ok well this is getting worse. I lost a Pineapple Swordtail platy today. He had a heavily Bloated stomach, ni signes of obvious disease. No Damage. This is not good. Something else is wrong.

Here are the params taken today from the tank & Tap

Tank Water

Ammonia .1ppm
Nitrates 10ppm
Phospates 0.5 - 1 ppm (was unsure of exact color)
Non-Chelated & Chelated Iron - 0
KH 200
GH 200
Ph 8.2
Ca 240

Tap Water
Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia 0
Chelated & Non chelated Iron 0
KH 150
GH 100
ph 7.8
Ca 200

I dont think the hardness is accurate from the tank. might take a second reading. Is is possible i have a parasite or something that is not visible?

Im really worried bout this. i need some help Badly.

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

Your water is fairly hard and the pH is pretty high. Why is there a rise in the ph, gh, and kh in the tank though? Is there something leaching calcium in the water? You could keep rift lake cichlids in your tank lol. Also blackwater is acidic water caused by tannins, it will lower your ph down to more acceptable levels.

For a short term solution try tetras blackwater extract, its about 5 ml per ten litres or something, or possibly ion exchange pillows, I think kent and seachem do them, and this softens water for a short time. For a long term solution rather than relying on real peat, which has a frankly unknown tannin content , and unpredictable ph governing ability,and really has to be experimented with a little, try something like eheims ehfi torf media, and put it in the filter, as you would expect, eheim have got it all worked out to precise dosages with typical german efficiency Its actually quite cheap for a litre of it, must be about the cheapest media they sell. lol.

http://www.eheim.com/chemical.htm

Well i did another water test tonight and the GH & KH and PH are all getting worse

New results

PH 8.4
Gh 200
KH 300

CA -

Ammo - 0
NitrAtes - 5-10
NitrItes - 0

I was going to do a water change but I fear i cannot due to the water PH conditions. I have gone ahead and added a De-ionisng pillow per LHG to see if it brings down the PH

Im not sure what to do at this point apart from scrapping the Substrate and starting over. I know the Slate and Petrified rocks are not the issue as i have had them in the tank before with no change in the hardness.

Shane

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
http://thetanklog.blogspot.com/ - [ Thanks to ScottF ]
http://www.natureaquariumclubofutah.com/main.html

You do have to be careful with some petrified rocks as a common method of fossilisation is calcification, and a piece that might not release calcites to begin with might eventually end up doing so as water and chemical erosion continues. Trees fossilise in layers as their composition in life dictates,they actually decompose inside out, the middle decays first and is often replaced by river sands and muds creating calcite mineralisation, the pith takes longer and harder more inert substances form, and the toughest of the outer layes and some of the bark takes the longest and is often formed under the most pressure, leaving the composition of minerals virtually inert.A tree may decompose and be mineralised with many different minerals, and as one layer is revealed by erosion , another comes into play. Almost no petrified wood is composed of a single material, and a cross section of a tree is nearly always mineralised in layers over hundreds of years in oxygen deprived conditions. Often quartz gives way eventually and the rest of the calcite composites end up being released. I have some myself that started out fine and about a year later had to be moved to a shellie tank in the end.

There is a difference between overview science and an understanding of how ph , hardnesses etc work in the real world. Most people assume that its a simple a to b equation, but often, it doesnt work that way.The thing is with peats and so on, is that quite naturally they release acids, and that in turn can actually react corrosively with a limestone source, and that , rather ironically, means that your calcite solids dissolve faster, and hardness reasserts itself.Hence my suggestion with the pillows, just avoid the reaction rather than go straight for peat which as many fishkeepers have found , gives them bewildering readings "how can my tank become more alkaline after I just put all that acid in?" Simple, The rock in a tank is a massive alkali solid, its got as much alkalii in it as about 400 tons of tapwater, and you just acid etched it and made it fall apart! When you think about how much water and how much money you could spend tring to neutralise the alkali from a single kilo of rock you realise it can quickly become a fools business, and therefore its better to take a pragmatic view and ditch the offending rock.

I suppose the point of all this wittering on is to illustrate that its very important to locate the precise source of the alkali and hardness, before going for a source of tannic acidity as a corrective.

I dont think you need fear a water change as long as your using a decent buffer control though.Its about avoiding extreme chemical reagents, and I found tetrabalance worked pretty well if put into the tapwater a few minutes before it goes in, but equally theres lots of others that can do a similar job.

Im really starting to think it has to be the rocks or the substrate. Ph on tapwater is often meaningless because the reaction happens in the tank, but can you do a hardness test on the tapwater?

Until then I would do 10% water changes every other day so at least the changes are minimal and any potential ph shock is graduated until you find the answer.Combine tthe water changes witha good buffer and you can fend the problem off indefinately, but at cost. It will however buy you time to figure out how to restructure the tank.

I'd lay good money on it being that petrified wood getting acid etched, and overloading the tank with calcium solids. Odd as it may seem, even a tank that is testing high ph and alkalinity may have a high level of organic acids that are undetectable, and are causing the reaction with a rock that gives you a high ph reading! We talk about acidity as an absolute term, but it makes no mention of different compounds still acting as reagents. Often there are acids working within an alkaline environment. Simple chemical reactions that we often forget about when talking about generic ph.

Vinegar tests dont always show you graphically enough if a given rock is worth using, for that sort of thing you really need dilute sulphuric acid. When people vinegar test they dont always get the graphic reaction theyre looking for in the time they allow for the test,particularly if the rock has some very aged and compressed ph neutral detritus etched into it at the beginning, but a non reaction to vinegar doesnt always mean their rocks wont be seriously leaching solids in a few months or years time.

A fishtank, because of bacterial gaseous exchange and decomposing protiens should always be producing acid, and when it isnt the dominant force of ph, ever edging further towards the conditions so typical of amazon clearwater and blackwater setups, either the tapwater is mega hard, or something is dissolving in the tankwater, its pretty much as simple as that. If the tapwater tests ok for hardness then the petrified wood or the substrate (probably both) have gotta go. Rather than play the balance up the alkali vs acid situation, which ultimately is a game you can lose becuase you can actually increase your alkali by throwing acid at an alkali object, choose a non-reagent coating or buffer. Tetrabalance does the neutrality thing rather well, and if the tapwater is the source of the problem even a cheap water filter for removing hardness can help, or go RO, or use peat filtration like the ehfi torf stuff as a longer term solution. The dissolved solids in tapwater are much easier to combat that a chunk of the stuff just sitting in the aquarium.Acids oxidise easily, and so have a limeted life, but are produced constantly be decomposition and fish respiration,and its not unusual under normal circumstances with minimal water changes to find out therefore that the tank is more acidic than the tapwater, and it takes a fairly high amont of calcite solids or big water changes to change that balance (one of the reasons I always say, if you need to change more than 30% at a time, your bleedin overstocked .lol - its because of the inverse ph stress as much as the high nitrate). If your ph is rising that high and the tapwaters average then you know you have a leaching issue, and its easier to remove the cause rather than fight the battle.

Hope that helps you understand how to tackle it. Find the source, and take it easy on the fish .