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i just got home from school, and after checking on the sick bettas and other tanks, i stopped infront of my 20 long, and noticed the dominant bolivian ram very dark in color, and lying under a leaf, i found a piece of canvas mat left over from their background, and shooed if from the cover of the leaf, it has no control of itself, and its buddy (strangly its not the other bolivian, its a blue) was staying close watching out for her, but after i got her from under it, she just started spinning!

i cant get water parammters because i dont have a tester, but is this because of water quality? i skipped their waterchange because the other tanks needed it more, and i was too lazy to do this one, but i didnet think i should worry because it is understocked with only, 6 1 3/4 inch juvinile corys, 1 male betta, one 3in clown pleco, 3 ottos, 3 rams, and 2 threadfin rainbows, and a filter good for 25 galons, i just recently added more sand, and changed the filter pad, and i only feed them a little every other day to keep waste down....

anyone know what could cause this, and if it is reversable?

That sounds like bad news, it could be Infectious Pancreatic Necrosis Virus (IPN) It has all the major symptoms you describe, and the virus itself is a very stable pathogen, often living free in water, its also very contagious. The methods of transmission are many , from sexual transmission, and infection via faeces and urine through to ingestion. It affects more than just fish and also affects both fresh, brackish, and marine fish. Its been reported on all major continents and is a major plague for commercial fish breeders.Without treatment , its kill rate averages out at about 70% across all species. It can be killed and disenfected with chlorine,formalin, and sodium hydroxide , but that doesnt help you treat the fish, although tanks themselves can be rid of it with a strip down and clean using any of the above compounds. Its rife in breeders and fisheries, and even five year periods of sterilisation have been reported in fisheries that raise trout and salmon, consequently its surprise vector of transmission could be from the handling of fish intended for our own consumption. It certainly has been reported in the hobby.

There is no sure treatment that will guarantee success , but treatments that include formaldehyde (surprisingly common in fish treatments you might even be able to find one that contains both formalin and formaldehyde) and the use of blackwater extract can limit the spread, although this may not stop it entirely. Raising temperature definately can have an effect.This infection hates high temperatures, and is often more devastating to coldwater fish. A backup antibiotic to prevent the onset of necrosis might also give your fish the best chance of survival.

I have a feeling that this particular infection happens to be the one, alongside NTD that is wiping out vast numbers of tetras , and is responsible for a lot of the misidentification of symptoms often accredited to NTD. The two infections are both inhibited by blackwater extract, and this too probably lends to the confusion.

If you can track down bruce moomaw in this site he may be able to contribute more info, I think hes had some experience of this and similar diseases, in fact we were just chatting about it the other day.He might be able to highlight something and suggest a few treatments.
Good luck!

so what meds have that in it? i have quite a few, and i can raise the temp too! whats the safest rate to raise it? with blue rams and ottos i mean? i have no way to get another bolivian to replace it, and if its contagious, then how come htis is the only fish i see acting remotly wierd?

Just use the aquarium heater to up it about 1-2 degrees every few hours, with an upper limit of about 85f I guess, more than that would be seriously pushing it for the ottos, although the cichlids can take warmer. You might have to quarantine the affected fish .

On the treatment front, ive already said as much as I know, I guess its a question of looking for meds that have formalin and formaldehyde in the composition, being in america at least means you have most of the info in the label, -im in old blighty, so I dont know what you can get hold of. Have a look in the LFS asap , and see what they have. A vet could recommend a decent antibiotic, but were talking the kind of strength here that would probably affect the filter, so I guess metronidazole is safe to use with filters and has an appreciable antibiotic affect in addition to its anti-protozoan abilities, so id probably go with that. I wish I could give you more info that would help, sorry.

As for only one fish being affected, it might simply be the first, or slightly more susceptible than the other species you have. The transmission pattern of this disease is quite eclectic , often symptoms dont manifest themselves quickly,and some fish species are more immune than others.Viruses and retroviruses can have periods of dormancy once an infection has occurred, its not always as cut and dried as fish contracts illness , fish looks sick , fish dies. Sometimes its like aids in humans etc, fish contracts illness, may live for many months with no symptoms, then starts to look sick and then dies. This is not unusual in a virus that includes sexual transmission in its repertoire, it wouldnt get far if a fish looked sick, and felt ill - the breeding wouldnt occur and the virus wouldnt get the chance it needs to spread. The 8 week survival period in water without feeding, demonstrates that this virus is eminently capable of diapauses or hibernations during extended periods with no sustainance.

Unfortunately its one of those infections, that along with NTD makes a bit of a mockery of average quarantine procedures.Add to that a lot of shops have caught on to the whole blackwater extract trick , and it might be possible for infected fish to survive many months without looking ill- certainly longer than most people will be bothered to quarantine them for. I strongly suspect this is how a lot of shops and breeders are getting away with the "its not us jack" excuses.