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Iam not going to lie....he dosent look that good...i dont know much about rams but he seems skinnier....mal-nurish?....what have you been feeding him....does he get much sleep....how long to you keep your light on for?


Peter

20 GALLON LONG CURRENTLY EMPTY ~~~~ 10 GALLON W/ STRIPPED CONVICT

So Very Sneaky, it was I who stated that, not SirBooks. And actually I stated it does do a good job in the treatment of some, as in Giardia. And, if you would have read on, as in everything I posted, you would have read that I stated again that it does work with some, just should not be stated as a cure for all.

BTW, Giardia is a flaggellate. As for the others you listed, well there are something like 20,000 different described nematodes, some that reach as much as 24 feet in length. As for the cestodes, I have never heard of treatng them with ATBs. And there is an extreme rarity of any tropical fish having these. At least in the states.

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There is always a bigger fish...

the ram is still alive, im getting ready to go to my IFS to see if they have any of the items mentioned above.

Im hoping I can save him, but Im not getting my hopes up since I think I may have just waited too long with meds.

Sirbrooks,
It is interesting that you say Metrinidazole
is not for internal parasites.
I have a Manual of Fish health,
and it recommends Metrinidazole for flaggellates and
nematodes and cestodes.
Metrinidazole is also present in the Jungle Brand
Anti-Parasitic food I bought to treat Camallanus Worms.
I have often heard it recommended for the treatment of
internal parasites.
Strange.


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As for not treating the whole tank unless you know EXACTLY what the specific infection is: if the infection is internal - and I'm being completely serious here - how do you know EXACTLY what parasite/ type of infection it is? We can't talk to fish and we can't look into them without them being dead.

This is the reason for a QT, because if you do treat the entire tank for one thing, and it turns out to be wrong, then you have risked the chance for the rest of your fish to become ill with the same thing. And, if it dies, if it was in the QT you have stopped the spread. As most internal parasites enter the entire water system when the carrying fish dies, especially if another fish starts eating on their corpse and thus opening up their insides. This is why the QT is so important, to separate the ill fish from the healthy ones. Myself, if I treat a fish and it dies and I suspect a parasite, I disect it and look at it under a microscope. And yes, I understand the biggest part of the hobbyists can't afford one. But, if you can, there are dozens of books out there with micro slide pics that make it actually very easy to determine what it is that killed the fish. You do not have to be a biologist to do this. And no, I am not saying to go out and buy a microscope. Though the ones you can find in the less expensive teenager type kits do work well for IDing most parasites.

My point is, when a fish is dying and you only have a few days to save it, most people don't have the time to run tests to find out the EXACT problem. You judge the problem by the general symptoms it shows.

The problem is, that there are many symptoms that can show up, that define several if not many different forms of illnesses and parasites. If you read what I posted in my last post, I state to treat in a QT tank, and if it is not working to change the treatment. Yes you are correct though, in that you have to treat the symptoms unless it is something you can definitely see and know what it is.

In this case, I erred in saying a specific type of medication treated internal parasties, when it apparently only treats other internal ailments. When fish show those types of symptoms, people - myself included - generally describe that as an internal parasite problem when it really may be some other type of internal problem.

The main problem is, quoting a medication does something is does not, will get others that take your advice into confrontations down the road. And, as you state, it may be some kind of other internal problem that your fish may of had. If you had stated simply that you have had good results treating this same kind of illness with Flagyl, then that would have been fine. But you stated it is internal parasites, and treat with Flagyl. Also, it should never be concluded that the symptoms and appearance of the ram, are internal parasites. As there could be several different underlying causes. Stress, in many fish will cause them to stop eating, and eventually die. As well, it can cause internal problems just like this. Poisons can also cause these same symptoms. Though I doubt this is the case in this istance.
Another problem with this; say your fish's problem was something else that the Flagyl worked on. And you go to the store and cannot find any Flagyl. So you ask the employee what else they have for internal parasites. They may give you something that is exactly for parasites, and then will not help your problem if it was something that the Flagyl would have helped.

I've had success on different occasions treating fish with the method I wrote above, and I'll stick by that. In my experience - which is all any one on this site outside of biologists can offer - metr. has worked with these sorts of problems without causing significant (or any, for that matter) harm to the other tank occupants, and in my opinion based on that experience it may help her with her ram. Good luck

Yes, it may very well help her with the ram. I never said it would not. I was simply making a point that Flagyl should not be used for internal parasites, as that is not what it is for. I have no doubt it helped your fish, and am glad it did. I am just saying to watch your wording a little.


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There is always a bigger fish...

thank you, I will see what my fish store has and try and bring him back from that edge. I seriously dont think he will make it since he has been in the "bent or curved" state since last night.
The poor guy is struggling to stay alive, so Ill try what I can and I can only hope.

I highly regard all your advice though! Ill see what I can do if he hasnt passed by the time I get home from work.

Fair enough. I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert.

I've had success many times treating fish that looked and behaved exactly like hers as I've written above. If it's been unwitting success, then fine. When I see a fish with a sunken in stomache, weakly "swimming" along as she has described, often accompanied by white stringy droppings, that says to me "internal XXX". I've treated my tank on two occasions as I described above without an instance of side-effect from the other fish. Personally I think it's harmless. Levels were always fine - if some bacteria died off during the process I didn't know because ammonia/nitrite didn't register.

As for not treating the whole tank unless you know EXACTLY what the specific infection is: if the infection is internal - and I'm being completely serious here - how do you know EXACTLY what parasite/ type of infection it is? We can't talk to fish and we can't look into them without them being dead.

My point is, when a fish is dying and you only have a few days to save it, most people don't have the time to run tests to find out the EXACT problem. You judge the problem by the general symptoms it shows. In this case, I erred in saying a specific type of medication treated internal parasties, when it apparently only treats other internal ailments. When fish show those types of symptoms, people - myself included - generally describe that as an internal parasite problem when it really may be some other type of internal problem. I've had success on different occasions treating fish with the method I wrote above, and I'll stick by that. In my experience - which is all any one on this site outside of biologists can offer - metr. has worked with these sorts of problems without causing significant (or any, for that matter) harm to the other tank occupants, and in my opinion based on that experience it may help her with her ram. Good luck

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Back in the saddle!

A

I bought this ram about 3-4 months ago and he was already about 2 inches. So Im guessing under a year.

the other tank buddies are:

1 BN pleco
1 Gold ram
1 baby bolivian
4 danios
and 5 corys

no one is breeding that I know of. The ram in question, was picking on the smaller one (in a pic above)

I have not added any chemicals besides the medicated food and gel.

fish dying of internal parasites. Treat with metronidazole

This quote is wrong. Metronidazole, or Flagyl as it is more commonly known as, is an antibiotic and will have no affect on many/most types of parasites. This medication is especially effective on anaerobic bacterial infections. It also has properties of an anti-inflammatory in the large intestine. And it has been effectively used gainst certain protozoal infections such as Giardia for example. But not for all internal parasites.

You should never treat your entire tank with ATBs if you are not certain what the disease/infection is. Not only will most ATBs kill off some if not all of your beneficial bacteria, but it not used properly will cause the bacteria to become more resistant to them. For this reason it is best to use a QT and treat as warrented by the symptoms. This way, with the QT you can also change your treatment at any time, if the current treatment is showing no signs of improvement.

As for your description of your ram, and your problems. How old is your oldest ram? How many other fish, including how many other rams are in the tank? Are there any fish that are breeding in the tank? Are there any chemical addatives or any addatives you add to your tank?

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There is always a bigger fish...

Metronidazole works well because you can add it to the water or have them eat it. Make sure to dose it properly and remove activated carbon from the filter while medicating. Dose it every day and look for results. If you save him in time, keep dosing for at least a week after he shows signs of recovery. Also follow Books' advice about keeping the lights off. Anything to reduce stress can't hurt... which is why maybe take him out of that net and just let him be. The other fish will already know there's something wrong with him and they'll leave him alone. You're treating the whole tank, remember, so the others will be treated as well, no worries about it spreading.

Did you notice if his poop is white or stringy?

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Back in the saddle!

thanks for your advice.
I have been feeding him medicated food, although, he has not been eating it. I switched to a gel food, and he isnt eating that either.

Ill look at my IFS and see what they have after work.

You fish's stomache area looks sunk and his color has darkened up - I've seen both symptoms before in fish dying of internal parasites. Treat with metronidazole, here's a link to one kind, though I think you'll have to look local to find it in time: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4753&N=2004+113017

Add it to the water, or mix it in with food.

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Back in the saddle!

I'm guessing this is the same ram as in [link=this]http://fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/66127.html?200511102117" style="COLOR: #808080[/link] thread? It looks like your pH has gone up 0.6 in the last few days, and that's a bad sign. Bolivian rams prefer a slightly acidic pH, so the sudden rise of an already-alkaline pH could have contributed to a shock of the fish. It did just go through an ammonia and nitrite problem. I would guess that the fish is severely shocked. The best thing I can suggest is to leave the tank dark for the next day or so, and avoid stressing the ram. With any luck (provided the water parameters remain stable), the fish will start to recover.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

yes, its the same fish, sirbooks, thank you.

When I tested my water the first time for PH, The highest part on my card is 7.6 and I didnt think that it would be higher than that, so I did not retest for the High PH range, so Im not positive if I had such a flucuation or not, seeing as I didnt test correctly in the first place.
When I tested last night, something triggered in my brain to test the high PH range, so I did, and it was between 8 and 8.2.
I have the tank dark right now since yesterday afternoon, Im sorry, but I do not have a quarintine tank and not a lot of money to go out and start one right now. (wouldnt that be worse, though, transferring him to an uncycled tank?)
I do have him quarantined to an area of the tank with a big net, but Im figuring that isnt going to help.

After work, I was going to look into one of the little breeder or fry tanks that you place in the upper part of the tank and talk to the employees there.

When I went home for lunch a few minutes ago, I see he is still struggling and his body, well, he's bent. He is in a curved position. Ive seen fish do this before and it has always proved fatal in the past.

I feel like there is something I can do, but I dont know what.

Wouldn't the high PH affect all my fish in my tank?

Sorry, im utterly confused. The only thing I can think of is bring him into my fish store when he dies and see if they can tell me what happened.

I have a Bolivian ram that I have had for over 3 months. Recently, he changed color and started hiding more often.

I noticed that his back fin is frayed, and he is swimming kind of lop-sided. I just found him laying on his side on the bottom of the tank, but he is still alive.

I really dont want to lose this fish as he is my favorite.
It really doesnt look like he is going to make it, since he isnt eating (now, he is pooping, Im assuming he is eating something)
Im going to attach a before and after pic of him, so you can see the difference.

Ive tested my water and everything seems ok, all the other fish are just fine.

This is before.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/pixxey420/fish005-revised.jpg

Notice his nice coloring.

This is him now.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/pixxey420/balisick001-revised.jpg

notice the color difference? and the frayed back fin?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/pixxey420/balisick005.jpg

This is him next to a healthy baby bolivian.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/pixxey420/balisick010-revised.jpg

and this is how he swims, back fin hanging down and wobbly movements.

What should I do?

Please hurry as I don't think he has much time!

Last edited by inlikefish at 14-Nov-2005 20:10

Last edited by inlikefish at 14-Nov-2005 20:11

try melafix cant think of much else, post exact water parameters/temp

Have any of the tank parameters changed latley?
New heater, filter, fish ect.?

Last edited by bcwcat22 at 14-Nov-2005 20:32

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

He has had a healthy appetite and ate most anything I put in the tank up until last week. He seemed to favor the sinking pellets though that I feed to my Cory's. I turn the light on in the morning when I wake up (7:00) and turn it off around 7-9:00 at night. That is 10 hours of dark, is that too little? The water temp is 76 degrees, and I am testing my water quality as we speak. My ammonia reading is zero, will be back with the rest of the results.

Well, new tank really. We upgraded from a 10 gal, to a 20 gal about 1 month ago. We used all the old stuff from the 10 gallon with the exception of adding new sand as we had a really bad snail problem in the 10 gallon, everything else is the same. We did add some new fish, but all are healthy and did not seem to bother my oldest ram at all.

Nitrite: 0 ppm
Ammonia: 0 ppm

Nitrite: 0 ppm
Ammonia: 0 ppm
PH Level: 8.2
Water Temp: 76 degrees