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why is it people ask me questions about it, but then never bother to come back and see the answer.

Well, to give you more to read about it, the fish isnt going to make it, not like anyone will read it anyway.

I'm very sorry to hear that your Bolivian isn't doing well. I'd place him in a quarantine tank and keep testing. Sometimes these things are a mystery, but eventually you will find the key. I hope your little guy pulls through. Good luck.

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

Has your PH fluctuated at all lately? Has it always been as high as 8.2?
I've seen my father's past platies act/look the same. I don't think he figured it out.

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

Sorry to hear about the fish, I lost some bumphead cichlids the same kinda way some years back, I think the suggestion that protozoa may have been responsible was reasonable, and also kh factors not being ideal may have been a source of stress. Watching the kh can be important with some species, and Id include rams in this. If it was internal parasites as oppose to blood , gut wall and nervous system parasites like protozoa it would likely have been tapeworm as there was no visible swelling.Protozoan infection often occur only when there are significant levels of the parasite in the water, so there comes a point when there is no point in quarantine. If youve caught it early, quarantine, if youve dithered about for a week or two wondering why the fish is sick you might as well treat the whole tank.
This goes for worm infestations, protozoa and bacteria. If youve let these infections get to the point that theyve gone through several breeding and life cycles you might as well go for it and treat everything.

Dont forget situations of reinfection can arise unless youve treated even healthy looking fish, as they can act as carriers even if they are not adversely affected themselves. I think the only time you can be sure a quarantine is neccessary is when you know it will be good not only for that individual but for the whole tank, this would apply whenever you acquire a new fish , but whenever a fish gets sick in an established aquarium, you know the source of that disease has to be in the aquarium , and likely as not already carried in the fish, molluscs , plants, or crustacea present.

Situations I would consider that quarantine is essential would be new fish, fish whose corpses would be catastropically infectious after death, especially when consumed by other fish, or fish that are persecuted by others when they become sick, or a fish that is showing visible cysts of external parasites on its skin.
At other times removing a sick fish can simply mean a death sentance for it, as they seldom do well in uncycled quarantine tanks in their weakened condition.

As to the earlier convo about quarantine versus treating the animal in situ- it really depends on whether the species are closely enough related for there to be direct infection. If I suspected protozoan infection in a tank where other rams were present I probably would treat the whole tank , although obviously there might be circumstances under which this might not be appropriate. I think most keepers lose their fish because of not acting quickly enough, seldom is the cause of death the actual medication itself. If you are in doubt as to the type of illness the fish are suffering from and therefore the level of contagion in the tank sometimes it can be prudent to do a three stage treatment, nail the protozoans first, then internal parasites like worms then follow up with general antibiotic support.Its a system that has served me well over the years, balancing as it does the avrage times of treatment versus the likely remaining survival time of the fish, and the workload of the liver and kidneys.

Most protozoans will attack the renal system , so you treat for that first, thusly reducing the load on the renal system , then you treat with wormers and general antibiotics later as these agents for the most part put a significant burden on the liver and kidney, as they use these organs as part of the medicinal process.

Although metronidazole is literally described as an antibiotic, it is far more effective as an anti- protozoan agent, wormers like fenbendazole are better for general worming, and enroflaxin (baytril) is better for those broad spectrum antibiotic duties. Use all three over a period of a month ( allowing for renal recovery) and they will cure most of the diseases you will encounter.

You will notice that I generally recommend treatments in their pure medicinal form, this is because a huge amount of sick fish will refuse to feed, and these meds have the abilty to be administered either by directly putting them in the water or injecting the fish. Orally administering meds by feeding or force feeding severely has its limits.If you want to be sure , go with a more systemic approach.

Not all meds significantly affect the filter, one of the problems people do tend to have is because either the meds have been chosen inappropriately ( theres pretty much a treatment available for every disease that wont significantly affect the filter) and the other big thing that some people forget is to clean the tank well BEFORE adding meds. This tends to reduce complications of the meds acting with bacteria in the water , and sometimes cleaning the tank will reduce the amount of ambient bacteria and parasites waiting in the wings to cause reinfections.

Sometimes its better to risk a cycle than risk an infection that is known to kill your fish. Its all a question of odds. Its guesswork sure, but it can be well informed guesswork. Go with the odds and no-one can blame you for the outcome.

Last edited by longhairedgit at 18-Nov-2005 22:12

Last edited by longhairedgit at 18-Nov-2005 22:21

ya, i definitely will. thank you.

Very sorry to hear the bad news

In any case, it may be a good idea to, as suggested by Sneaky and Acid Rain earlier, keep some general parasite meds on hand just in case you see any symptoms in the other fish.

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Back in the saddle!

i hope my tank is fine, All the other fish look fine. Im not going to add anymore new fish for quite a while to make sure my tank is operating at top notch.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Very sorry about the ram.

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

sry about the ram,
i hope you can fiqure out what went wrong and solve it or if it was just a random illness.
Best of luck

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

okay, I'll definitely look into that.

Just a last note on the ram, he passed away last night.

Kh, alkalinity, buffer prevent rapid changes in pH over a short amount of time. This is probably not the actuall injury your ram has but it could cause severe stress that then results in an illness. It is probably fine but you can have it checked at your lfs just to be safe.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

i dont believe I use one.

sorry, but im not sure what a buffer is.

You never mentioned what your buffer was. This could be a cause of your ph problems.

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

thank you.
I fear it is too late. for the last 48-60 hours he has been in a state where he is barely moving. And hes barely pumping his gills. I fear I may be letting him suffer. I dont want to just flush a live fish and I dont want him suffering.
His body is bent at an almost 90 degree angle.

What would you do? continue to treat him and wait it out while he suffers?
or
euthanize him? AND if so, how as I have never done that.

inlikefish,

You'v gotten alot of advice from people. Everyone really is trying to help, but it's tough to sort it all out, especially in time to save your fish.

Bottom line with Rams, they are e to internal parasites and you have to make an assumption that is what your bolivian has. Your best bet IMO is to treat with Metronidazole as Nowher has suggested coupled with the Jungle Brands Anti-Parastic Food (assuming the fish is still eating). Internal parastic disease is difficult to cure in time and if you want to keep rams there is also an above average risk you fish will get this compared to other fish. Whatever you do stay away from Blue Rams they are even more e to this disease - Good Luck!

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Nov-2005 19:23

My Scapes

ok, Ill definitely read up on adjusting ph before I use anything. Ill test my water source also and see what that is.

I did see the medicine mentioned above, so perhaps I can go get that.

Does that mean that me using melafix isnt going to work?

I agree with sneaky there, you should start with a wide range ATB, and maybe some anti parasitic. I like Maracyn II, it works very well as a wide range ATB, and should be available at most lfs.

As for the ph, you should study hard on what you are doing. As messing with the ph can cause a whole another set of problems. If you really are set on the idea though, the best way is actually with RO water, and then adding trace elements and buffers (to stabilize the ph) back to the RO water. But this should be done with great care. And the RO and addatives should be done in a separate container.

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

Ink,
I wouldnt use that PH down liquid if I were you.
Chemical PH decreasers often cause much more
harm than good. If you want to lower your ph the
best and most natural way is the addition of peat
granules to your filter.
Probably a good treatment for your fish, would be
to use a broad spectrum antibiotic, and a broad
spectrum anti parisitic, in order to rule out
anything. As it is unclear what your fish is affected
with, a good treatment would be Maracyn/Maracyn Two,
in combination with a quality antiparasitic.


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I couldnt find any of those items mentioned above, so I took a chance and bought melafix.
I also bought PH down, to lower my PH, but Im not going to put that in until Im done medicating my tank.
The ram is still alive this morning, but he doesnt look any better-he looks worse.

I did see tetracycline and others like that at the fish store, just nothing mentioned above unless im completely missing it.

So I dosed the tank last night with a half dose, Ive had the lights off for 2 days now, took him out of the net and put him in a little breeder tank since I have nowhere else to place him.

Like I said, fair enough. I've never cut open a dead tropical aquarium fish for the purpose of looking at its innards under a microscope.

However, I'm still unconvinced that Metronidazole is COMPLETELY ineffective against internal parasites. If you want to say it's ineffective against SOME or MOST, I can't argue with you because you know more than I do. But the fact is it's marketed as a treatment for certain internal parasites and infections by several sources. Not against ALL, but at least some.

" Non-prescription treatment for the control of internal and external parasites as well as some anaerobic bacterial diseases"

"Metronidazole is an effective and safe treatment for several protozoan and anaerobic bacterial diseases of fish (Cryptocaryon, Hexamita, Ichthyophthirius)" - Seachem metr.

"Clears external and internal parasites, including protozoans, flukes, lice, anchor worms, and flagellates such as hexamita or spironucleus. Contains dimethyl phosphonate, metronidazole, and acriflavine" - Junglelabs parasite clear

Look, I can't argue with you on specifics about how these things work because you are clearly more knowledgeable in this area than I. If there's anything you can fault me for it's for sounding too definitive in what I said - but I only said it that way because I think it'll work for her. I don't think what I said was as harmful and misleading as you're making it out to be. We're all trying to help her, so let's just leave it at that.

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Back in the saddle!