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I need speedy assistance.

I have a nice adult betta male. I haven't been around this weekend, so it's hard to know when it started, but this morning I checked the little fella, and his entire face was white. he looked reclusive and lost appetite. there's also a secondary infection up on the head, which looks like it damaged several scales.
the whole face from the mouth almost to the eyes is inflamated.

first thing I did was removing him from the tank into a large bucket (currently, filled with 10L of water) since my hospital is currently populated with quarantined fish (healthy new ones). origin of the infection is unknown. no new fish were introduced in the last couple of months.

the aquarium is a planted 20L. it just got over a bad algea case, so the water parameters are fluctuating (no NH4, but changes in NO3 and PO4). all fish survived the battle, and look healthy. no other illnesses, deaths or irregular bahvior observed. the infected Betta looked healthy and active on thrs.

after isolating him, I ran to the internet to look for a cure. I've found that terramycin and aureomycin can help. after asking around, I used another tetracycline that I had available at a dosage of 10mg/L (pill disolved in water).

will the antibiotics help?
is there anything more I could do for the poor guy?

Last edited by fry at 27-Nov-2005 04:41

Fry,

Sorry to hear that.

I am not very experienced with Cotton Mouth, but I once lost a Gouramie to it (he died within 36 hours). I am also not experienced what medicine (if any) could help this illness, but I would say that your options are limited.

Any help would have to be long term, meaning that your bucket would have to be aerated and maybe heated (don’t know your room temperature). EDIT: forgot that Betas can breath air from surface, scratch the aeration.

Personally, I would euthanize ( sp? ) the poor fish as he is in an advanced stage with secondary infections.

Sorry I have no better info,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 27-Nov-2005 06:04

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

temperature is not a problem in this part of the world.

I hope he'll survive long enough for the antibiotics to take effect.
from a report I've got from home, he's looking a little better than he was in the morning. he swims around the bucket and gulps air from time to time.

I think I misused the term "secondary infection". he has another locus of infection, but as far as I can tell has got more bacteria than the one causing cotton mouth.

should I administer antibiotic ointment too?
those are oil-based. is it OK to use them on fish at all?

I think I wasn't clear enough about the symptoms:
there is white inflamated skin all over the face, but no "cottony" parts or tuft. the skin doesn't seem to rot. there is no layer of material over the skin, as much as I can tell.
it's a fast spreading desease, that's for sure.

is my diagnosis correct?
should I use erythromycin or some other gram-negative antibiotics instead?

Last edited by fry at 27-Nov-2005 08:44

well, this is traumatically over.
by the time I got home from work, the poor guy had his entire face infected, he lost his eyes, and was dying.
I helped him out with that, easing the suffering with clove oil.

can anyone tell me how to spot it sooner next time (I hope there won't be next time, but who knows), and what kind of treatment should be effective?

Fry,

Sorry to hear that, but I think it was the best you could do.

I am no expert on Cotton Mouth, but the one time I had it was just as fatal as it was for you. Within 24 hours a tiny thin line on the fish's mouth turned into a full white face (then gray, from rotting).

I think to remember that usually there is not much that can be done and success stories of recovery are sparse (and might actually be based on misinterpretation of the illness).

Maybe others can tell more.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

yeah, that kind of fish, as most fish we can keep in a tank, are too small to withhold a full blown bacteria attack. the antibiotic don't have enough time to take effect.

I would like to know more about it too. is using local medicine (ointment) rather than systemic treatment (dissolved pills) better?

Thats always going to be a tricky one, the bacterial infections will always penetrate into the animal as much as the visible threads protrude outwards , so ideally something that penetrates skin and treats the external symptoms at the same time as fast as possible would be a good idea. Injectables probably werent an option in this case, and would have required the animal hang in there at least a couple more days for it to stand a chance of recovery.Tetracycline is available as a cream, Bacitracin might work, but its effects on fish are unknown. Povidone iodine could be brushed onto the site of infection to stop bacterial and fungal growth on the surface perhaps limiting damage until a systemic antibiotic can come into effect.

In this case however theres probably very little that could have been done to help this particular fish as the spread was so quick.

I would strongly suggest against iodine on bettas. I tried it once and it was horrific. The fish bleached white on the areas the iodine had touched within about 20 mins, and then as the white areas spread, the fish died. If you do try it, i'd dilute it quite a bit from the stock solution.

If you catch it fast, mercurochrome seems to have good results IME, but it can only help what it touches. With infections around the mouth, the problem can often be that the infection moves to the area inside the oral cavity, and topical treatments just will not reach. Plus its a bit hard to obtain, and is not all that good for you.

I have had simething similar in my bettas, 12 hours and he was dead, so much necrotic tissue while it was live I was suprised it lasted so long.
I honestly don't think I could have saved them. It was just vicious, and so fast!

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Just for further reference - povidone iodine is gentler and more effective on fish than regular iodine which can also be harsh and likely to cause pain. Povidone iodine will cause temporary staining but is unlikely to bleach a fish quite as badly as regular iodine. It aids cellular regeneration of tissue, and is often used on burn victims, although cal did correctly point out, using it in dilution is a good idea.

I was using Betadine, which i believe is a brand of povidone iodine (don't know if it is worldwide). I had no idea that it was even cabable of doing that when I tried it. I haven't been game to try it again even at a lower concentration.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Yeah we can get betadine here too. I use it at about 7% solution, and it works for me. Works great on turtles too.

as in you dilute to 7% or you use a pack that has 7% on the label? I just went to check ours and it says 10% on the label so I just want to clarify.


For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

The solution on mine is 20% suspension, and I dilute that to around 7-10% of that , so technically that makes the solution im using around 2 %. Perhaps I should have pointed that out, apologies.

It helps for the mixture to be thin or it gets a bit er sticky., it still works at that dilution. Its fine used neat on mammals (ie 20% ) about half strength on reptiles (10%), and much weaker for amphibians and fish (2%).

It really can get sticky and pickup dirt. If you use it neat,it can become quite stiff and crusty, not a problem on a mammal or reptile because you should be cleaning wounds after using it, but obviously an issue with amphibians and fish. Just enough to paint the wound site with a weak solution should be fine.

A contact antibiotic would be better, but povidone iodine is more likely to be available at short notice. I find it helpful in keeping fungus off new wounds.



Last edited by longhairedgit at 06-Dec-2005 06:28

When my black breeding angels got into a vicious fight, the male tore off the mouth of the female and chunks of flesh were missing from the "cheek" areas. In about two days, secondary infection set in, and she had some fuzzy stuff around the mouth, that looked like her scales falling off. In about a day, it had spread, and looked like furry cotton.

I dosed the tank with terramycin and prayed for the best, and in 24 hours, the fuzz was gone. Her wounds took about a month to heal, and she still has scars from that fight, but she is doing great, and fighting with some very irritating skunk loaches ATM. I have heard that treating with terramycin tablets meant for children or erythromycin (ingredient in most throat/cough meds) will help.

I dont know if it was the cotton mouth, or something else, but then, my fish was very healthy and strong.

Clowny.

Last edited by ClownyGirl at 06-Dec-2005 11:34