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Here's a couple photos of my tiger barbs, wondering if I have a White Spot problem? The temp changed a couple days ago from 80 to 76 then back up to 80, have since set the temp so it cannot vary so much.

Here's the water chem the time of these photos:

Nitrate: 0-20 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Hard: 120 ppm
Alk: 300 ppm
pH: 8.0
Amm: .5 ppm
Temp: 80

20 gal freshwater with 4 Tiger Barbs. We bought and set up the tank on May 28th, added the fish May 29th. I have not done any water changes yet. The ammonia has never gotten above .5 ppm The fish are fed once daily, in the evening (I fed them right after I took the pics. See the links below for photos. What's with the bubbles around the top of the plant in the background of the second pic? It's right near the filter discharge, does that just happen with plastic plants that are at the surface?

http://bp3.blogger.com/_EH8O9RpAhpw/Rmnp3PFAPUI/AAAAAAAAAIE/RRCKXPdBYVQ/s1600-h/Tiger+Barbs+6-8-07+2nd+set+008.jpg

http://bp3.blogger.com/_EH8O9RpAhpw/RmnpvPFAPTI/AAAAAAAAAH8/sWZM8VoX28A/s1600-h/Tiger+Barbs+6-8-07+2nd+set+003.jpg

http://bp1.blogger.com/_EH8O9RpAhpw/RmntuvFAPVI/AAAAAAAAAIM/bK-jReHTzuo/s1600-h/Tiger+Barbs+6-8-07+011.jpg

Hopefully I gave you enough info, and I am just being paranoid... I am stil learning how these lil guys behave so I am not sure what normal is. They chase each other around, they all feed, once in awhile they will pair up at the bottom and sorta nip and dance around each other. Sometimes they will gang up on one and nip and chase. The one they gang up on varies, not always the same one. It looks like Tiger Barb play to me... There are two of them with those little specks on their fins, never noticed that before. I couldn't tell if it was O2 bubbles stuck to em, or what. They were all at the surface acting like they were eating when I first noticed the spots...

Any comments would be welcome!

I'll give you my best guess, but im estimating as my compys monitor just lost all the blue tones, so my screen looks like a heavily tannin saturated tank at the moment.

Looks like a little fungal and finrot action with the skin slime layer reacting to it more than whitespot, although whitespot can often kick off under similar conditions. Go for a touch of melafix first. Inconsistant temps especially when they tend to go high can trigger all sorts of bacterial and fungal blooms, and while these are not always visible to the naked eye as regards the water itself, it sure can take to the fish nontheless.

Bubbles are not unusual, but that they bind together and dont pop instantly means that there may be a few protiens and fats on the surface film.Usually solved by changing foods, having higher filtration with even more bubbles and higher flow rates, or simply wiping off the surface by blotting it with a clean sheet of paper towel.


You may find that the tiger barbs in a shoal as small as this, as oppose say 8 -12, could be engaging in fin nipping proper, and all the little nicks are giving the fungus and finrot nasties a achance to take a shot at the tissue by getting past the protective slime layer where breached. Thats tiger barbs! Small shoals often end up being killed off down to the last male/female pair, but much higher numbers dont suffer the same issues. In short, its probably not play at all. They are one of those species where territoriality and dominance are diffused by having greater numbers.

this is whitespot BTW. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_4774.jpg

Git, thanks! I will have to get out and get some Ich stuff and Melafix... I sure do appreciate your input! Could I grab a couple more Barbs while I am at the LFS? Or would I have to wait until I clear this issue up and the cycle is good...?

Id probably clear the infection up first, and if you do use meds choose gentle ones like melafix and pimafix and use them sparingly, or you'll set your cycle back even further,it sounds like the cycle is working but hasnt really grown to full potential yet, hence the surface film scum.

Just try to coast the fish through on the minimum of meds, possibly just half doses and get the water back up to standard, and then add more fish, although with barbs, dont get too many as overstock limit will quicky be reached as they grow, your barbs only look a third to a half of their adult size, and in terms of mass they are probably at one quarter of a full sized fish. Add no more fish than two at a time if you do get some more, as again the filter must have an opportunity to mature and the bacterial culture held within given a chance to expand.

Yeah I remember reading about taking time adding fish due to the bacteria buildup in the filter. And I wasnt planning on too many more fish due to tank size/stocking limits/fish size. I would love one Red Tail Black Shark in there with the Barbs. Then it will be time for a new, bigger tank, MTS here I come! Aye Caramba!

Oddly enough , now that you mentioned it, I started out a similar way you did when I was a mere 5 year boy with my first tiger barbs.It did lead to my first case of MTS.

I started out with a 30 gallon, but even that was overstocked, considering the only filter I could get back then was a cheap plastic box connected to an airstone filled with cotton wool and my moms old tights with peat in them. It used to chuck out about 12 bubbles a minute and hd no flow and the only heating was...er sunlight, can you believe it? Perhas i shouldnt mention the betta and the axolotls in the same tank? They lived for years and to this day i've never found a sufficient explanation for why a 10 inch axolotl didnt eat a tiger barb. O rwhy the tigerbarbs didnt fin nip the betta, or why , out of the three species the betta died first. Nobody told them the rules obviously.

Still, it was the 70's, the only powerfilters in existance were for rich people with spoiled kids,and had an electrocution risk akin to throwing a microwave in the bath. I can hear my dad ranting now "10 quid for a filter, your havin a laugh".

He nearly had a heart attach a year ago when I told him I bought two that were £400 each. , the woman at the petshops knowledge extended to " yeah, thats a fish" and the bacterial cycle was still pretty much a rumour in my part of the country.Thank god for elodea, it was probably the thin red line keeping everything alive. Even then , im not sure why it didnt just die off.Water changes were a fad, and the water only got topped up when it evaporated. I wish id had a testkit back then, I just want to know what the nitrate was...can you get 5000ppm?

Oh , and my first new tank after that was another 30 gallon tank, uncycled with 6 angelfish in it, back when they were reaaaally expensive and no one knew what discus were.Oh and a comet goldfish called jack, who survived all of my trials and tribulations for 15 years. They all lived!

What I knew came from encyclopedias,kids books,"safari cards" that the WWF used to send you in the mail and a longhaired hairy metal biker called "Will" who used to have a few exotic fish that we used to meet in my dads pub. My dad had some koi, but then we had a lake, he never even fed them.

At least you have all the books and equipment to help you now. MTS is a lot more fun!

I remember when all this was just fields

That's some humble beginnings my friend! What a great story! I have been reading non stop since I bought this set-up, never realzing what a big deal fishkeeping is. I am glad my lil guy got me into this! And, we love the Tiger Barbs.

Hello Scott,

Just checking in, curious on how your fish are doing. Hope all is going well and they are responding to treatment.

LHG, that is a really nice story on your background, thanks for sharing. At least you had a box filter, back in the 80s all I had was a 20 gallon with a small pump with an airline going into the water. I kept swords and albino cories and it was heavily planted with Elodea. I guess this last being what held together the whole system since water changes were done sporadically and it used to be a strip down, clean everything, set up again type of thing and the full 100% of the water was changed.

Crazy how things change!

Well all the best again on your fish Scott, hope to hear from you soon.

James

Well, I just found one of my Tiger Barbs pulled up against the intake for the filter, dead. I began 1/2 doses of Melafix yesterday, gave todays dose (#2) about 2 hrs ago.

I have noticed white spots (on more than just his tail/fins) on one of the two remaining Tiger Barbs so I am wondering if maybe I should start treatment for Ick?

I am going to go test the water right now and report back on that...

bummer...

Ok, here's my chem test results (same numbers as it's been most of this week)

Nitrate- 10ppm
Nitrite- 0ppm
Hardness- 250ppm
Alkalinity- 300ppm
pH- 84
Ammonia- .50ppm
80 degrees, tank is 13 days from initial start up.

The other Tiger Barb with spots is gulping fairly heavily, so I went ahead and gave .75 dose of Ick meds. Hopefully, I can get him well before I lose him too.

The tank is still cycling, but I guess you have to do what you have to do, to save the fish now irrelevant of the water quality. This is pretty much the most difficult scenario possible from which to pull a save and a touch of bad luck to say the least, although obviously ammonia poisoning will make a fish weaker and thusly more susceptible to disease.

Since your already doing the best you can do for now Iguessit only remains to wish you good luck.

Hey Git-

It wont be a problem that I went ahead and began the Ick meds even though I have been dosing (1/2 doses) with the Melafix, right??

Thanks for your help here by the way...

Probably not, theres nothing in melafix to react with ich meds, and no impact on the renal system of the fish.

Well, that's a relief... I was chatting with Red just now and he was curious as to why I am getting Nitrate readings and never any Nitrites... I have gotten between 0-20ppm since I began the tank 13 days ago. I have used a bio-boost (provided in the kit and manufactured by the pet store)to help quicken the cycle and build bacteria at half the prescribed doses amnd one dose of water conditioner at start up. My Ammonia has never been above .5ppm And it seems like an awful high pH to me, been 8.2-8.4 since the beginning. I use test strips, and have ordered liquid testing materials online to replace the strips.

I've also
noticed that one of the two "non-spotted" tigers has faded some (his stripes and orange fins)... must be picking up the illness as well, eh?

I still say the nitrite section on your test strips has just gone out completely. Definitely not unheard of with strips. The ammonia test is also questionable especially since you've gotten the same reading over this much time. I'd bet that with the nitrates showing up your tank is actually getting close to cycled. What to do next is a bit of a gamble without a trustworthy test kit. You could do a water change in case the ammonia is higher than you think and stressing them out too much or just wait it out to see if the tank is nearly finished cycling and treat the symptoms as they appear.

Well just a quick update, yesterday I found one of the spotted tiger barbs dead and tonite the other one who was spotted and seems to be cleared up isn't looking too good. He hasn't eaten in two days, he stays off by himself and the bottom half of his tail fin is gone from being nipped by the other two. He doesn't move alot, and seems to be "gulping" moving his mouth open and closed repeatedly. I am in day 2 of Ick dosage and the spots seem to have gone. I just "rescued" him from amongst the leaves of one of my plastic plants. Not looking good for Tiger Barb #2. I don't really know what to do... I guess I keep working on the cycle and watch and wait.

Well, the second Tiger Barb just died... sucks...

The tank chem is the same as it has been pretty much all along:

Nitrate: 0-20ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Hardness: 120ppm
Alkalinity: 300ppm
Ammonia: .5 ppm
pH: 8.6
Temp 81 degrees (Been holding steady around 80 for nearly a week)

The ammonia has never exceeded .5 ppm and I have never had a reading for Nitrites. I use test strips, have some liquids on order. I will be curious to see what those show.

I wish I knew what to do. I guess I will finish the third day of Ick meds, then put a new carbon filter in and get the meds out. Maybe then a 25% water change.

Any advice would be great... I hope the other two Tigers hang on... They seem to be fine, maybe a little faded in color but otherwise acting like Tiger Barbs. I want to get them some more Tiger Barb tankmates so they don't nip at each other too much but when do I do that?

Theres not a great deal of advice to give im afraid, it just sounds like the cycle isnt progressing still unless the test kit is off, and since the use of the whitespot meds I can well imagine a lot of the early filter bacteria may well have died, leaving ammonia as the only consistant reading.We can only hope the fish survive long enough for it to begin again, and agents like biospira will be useless when meds are being used and will only add to the total ammonia.

For whitespot to disappear visibly after a couple of days is usual, but seeing as they reproduce on a three day cycle you have to keep treating for at least 3 days after the last visible sign. This is of course bad news for the fish as the cycle will take longer to complete, but thats the godawful situation when you get diseases strike during a cycle. Youre already doing all that can be done. Maybe a little stress zyme will help after treating for whitespot as it tends to cuase a thickening reaction in the fish's skin slime layer that can help protect it.

If the fish make it past the next 3 days, run carbon to remove the meds, ditch at least half of the water, and then try adding bio spira or similar to speed up the cycle.

If they dont make it, you might as well be sure of getting rid of all traces of whitespot, so just ditch a load of the med into the tank and let it run for a few days. Then ditch the water,rinse the crap out of the filter media, or replace it, and start a cycle afresh without fish. You could also break down the tank again and wash everything , the glass the gravel, the filter, heater, and all associated tank tools including gravel cleaners and nets etc,in 5% bleach solution, rinse well, towel dry until spotless, and let air for 24 hours. Ditch any existing plants, they may carry the whitespot tomites.

Presumably once bitten will have been quite enough,so you might wish to try fishless cycling using either cycling products or pharmacy quality pure ammonia, and wait the usual 21 days, adding plants etc, and getting it ready for the new fish. Cease adding ammonia to the tank 24-48 hours before adding fish, you could also just add a little organic detritus (fish food will do!) to the tank a few days before ceasing ammonia, just to make a safer transition that will still be feeding the filter bacteria.

Oh , and get the fish from somewhere else. Your whitespot almost certainly came from that shop, and if its in their system any stock from there might have it. They may be subduing the physical symptoms and spread with UV sterilisation, but as soon as you get em home and reproduction starts uninterrupted then...well you know what happens.

I printed off your post Git, thanks man... I am curious to see what the liquid test results are, once I receive it.

The other two TB's seem to be behaving "normally" in fact, possibly spawning, they are doing this great little nose down fluttering dance deal...

I am just concerned about them being alone as they love to nip if they aren't schooled. It was suggested that I get a handful of Gold Zebra danios to help speed the cycle once I get past this med phase here... then grab a couple mroe barbs if everything goes well.