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hi,
i just noticed that one my firemouth's has a strange growth!
the growth is almost like a bubbly blister. it's red in colour and is located at the base of the front right pectorial fin. It seems to spread a little towards the gill area.
Right now it does not seem to affect the movement of the fin.
I dont know how long it has been there as i've been a way for a while (my parents have been looking after my tank)
oh, and non of the other firemouth's have this!
if anyone has any idea please reply.
i'll try to get some pics up asap

here are some pics
http://www.geocities.com/jksgoh/growth.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/jksgoh/growth2.JPG

Im pretty sure from those pics it has to be one of two ailments, but unfortunately I cant really tell if its cancer or cauliflower disease from those pics. Good though they are, I would really need to see the surface of the lump in some truly crispy detail to be able to tell if the cause is cancer or cauliflower disease. Each complaint has a very fine grain and texture structure that is distinctive, but it would have to be a magnificent macro shot to show the difference. Anyway, firemouth cichlids are horribly susceptible to both conditions.

Ill give you the rundown on both.

Firemouths are unfortunately one of those species of fish in whom breeding changes may bring about cases of cancer. The intense red areas on the base of the pectorals are subject to caretenoid pigment change and unfortunately cancer occurs in those heavily pigmented areas in quite a few specimens. A small swelling is not unusual as a breeding response in some specimens anyway, but in your case the swelling is abnormally large. Deep red and orange pigmented areas are always a prime area for cancer to arise.

Its not always a malignant cancer though, although it may begin with rapid growth, the growth decelerates as the hormonal triggers begin to wane and the fish passes its breeding condition. Some fish can live for many years with such growths and no noticeable ill effects, some fish even have the swelling subside over the years.

Its not as unusual as it sounds, some goldfish for instance also get horrific seasonal cancers from the gill covers, really massive outgrowths in an area that would only show a small amount of growth under normal circumstances. I've seen a goldfish that effectively grew a lance shaped, "spear" of a tumour that projected several inches clear of the chin!.Its usually a genetically preditermined thing, and there is nothing you can do about it, and theres no need to actually euthanise the fish unless its health is severely flagging, and its obviously not contagious.



The other condition which is infectious and caused by a virus is cauliflower disease, also known as LDV or lymphocystis disease virus.It usually passes in a few months , although some of the growths may remain as permanent scar tissue. Its disfiguring , but rarely life threatening, several surveys done on this disease rate morbidity from 1 to 30 percent depending on the species of fish infected. Firemouths are not considered a high risk group as regards death, although they are a high risk group for transmission. The disease profile is here :

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/d100004.htm

Either way there is no effective treatment for the LDV virus or even any truly effective palliative care measures for cases of cancer aside from removal of the tumour itself, and even that may not help a fish that has a truly malignant systemic cancer. Removing a tunour in that location would probably necessitate the removal of the fin entire, and as such would really not be worth it. I have seen people recommend garlic to reduce symptoms for LDV, but this is just fishkeepers myth, and there is no effect. No cures for this one.

Hope this helps, although in a way I know nothing can really be done. Be alert for secondary infections though, a few antibacterial meds may help if the tissue becomes in any way infected.

bit of a jump off topic,but how come this didnt happen to me when my firemouths were spawning,

Luck of the draw im afraid.

Errors in cellular replication can happen at any time, its not a consistant thing, just as the hormones arent always consistant. Some fish only get cancer at certain phases in their life. Usually it happens before a spawn or just after, usually its hormonally triggered. Sometimes fish are more susceptible to cancer after the vitality of youth has given way to true maturity , even if they were sexually mature at a younger age. Its a maturity thing.Across the board in all species cancer is more likely to hit older fully mature specimens .

Its when the accelerated growth of tissue or changes in the pigment of that tissue cancer is most likely to happen, but is not by any means the only time. Take a look at this picture of one of my older rainbows. This is cancer,not LDV, and youll notice that these growths actually appear only on the orange tissue and not on the whites or blacks, the one on the midbody occurred where another rainbow gave him a nip a few years back, and the others are all basal tissues on fins, areas of high cellular replacement and regrowth.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_4378.jpg

Maybe your fish is thinking about going at it again?

In any case , its the nature of heavily red pigmented tissues that are the problem, and they are always a higher risk for cancer than other tissues in fish at any time. Its not uncommon for males to go through hormonal breeding flushes even when females are unreceptive. Just like human males, just cos we are all revved up and ready to go, doesnt necessarily mean we get to "spawn" either! Predicting cancer susceptibility is very much a probability thing, in terms of time and conditions, cancer is very hard to predict. Firemouths are known for it though.

Besides, the fish may have LDV, not nice , but much better than cancer. I cant really be conclusive about it from the pic, TBH I cant rule either problem out.

thanks for the informative reply longhairedgit.
eitherway, doesnt look like i can do much huh... but he still does seem healthy and acts pretty normal. (touch wood)
one more q tho, you said that you would be able to visually differentiate a tumour from cauliflower disease.
is it possible if you could tell me the diffs in appearance to see if i am able to differentiate them myself?
oh just thought id ad some extra info, the fish in question is a male, and is about 4-5years old, so ye i guess its on the "mature" side of life ( i think ??? ) so maybe this leans towards tumour/cancer? =/
thanks heaps

Well the way to tell if its cauliflower disease or not is to look for many small (were talking just visible here) spherical shapes that make up the total mass of the lump, its the swelling of these particular cells called cellular hypertrophy that causes the lumps to form. The LDV virus malforms the usually microscopic skin cells and makes them visible. Its almost as if the lumps are made of small beads, its a bit like looking at a polystyrene cup. Cancers are usually less uniform, and may have smooth areas, and warpy looking shapes. Its kind of hard to picture unless youve seen it before.

Some cancers produce a granular finish and also cause cellular hypertrophy too, but its the way that LDV kind of causes the cells to pile up in a fairly uniform way that makes it distinctive.LDV usually enlarges every part of the cell equally at up to 500 times the normal size, consequently the grain size in the lumps is very consistant.

In simple terms it looks a bit like a pile of encrusted beads, as oppose to a splat with beads in it , if that makes any sense at all .

oooohhhh,some of those lumps look nastyso as long as the fish is genrally ok and still eating and swimming normall,there ok?i must have been 1 of the luck ones(normally im not>.<so longhair it dosent really have anything to do with water parameters a?

Cancer can be caused by chemical pollutants but not water quality, and as for LDV , you can infect other fish by not quarantining and keeping overstocked tanks, but it is a distinct virus, and it basically needs to be transmitted from fish to fish or via a crustacean.It cant appear from nowhere.

ah ok.its just strange how some fish(like the 2 firemouths i had)wont get it,but another will.strange dont you rekon so for example,i forget who told me on this site,that pvc pipe can leach nasties into the water,could these nasties cause a cancer to form?
or if you used a silicone that wasnt non toxic,could these things also cause cancer?

Those items can produce carcinogenic chemicals, but only during production, both compounds once set and cured should be chemically inert. PVC and solvent factories that produce such items may cause carcinogen pollution , but the product itself will not release such chemicals, unless burnt.

ahhh ok.well now i know.

hmm, well i had another look but i cant really say what it is... but i was leaning towards the description of a tumour.
oh well, guess i'll just have to wait it out and see what happens.