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Could anyone tell me what the lifespan of a Floida Flag Fish is?

Only my male Flag Fish has gone from being utterly bouncing with health to a crumbling geriatric in the space of 24 hours. It's sitting on the bottom, breathing laboured, and looks as if it's going to exit this life in pretty short order.

No obvious disease symptoms are present, and none of the other fish are showing signs of anything like this - the Siamese Algae Eaters are bouncing around as per usual, and the water parameters are sound, viz:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 15 ppm (helped by the fact that I have a forest of plants in there).

pH is 6.8, don't know about hardness but since my normal tap water is fairly soft, and suitable for Amazonian fishes straight out of the tap, I don't anticipate hardness being a big problem.

In the past 24 hours, the fish has developed a modest but noticeable 'age hump' just in front of the dorsal fin, but there are no signs of actual disease - fins are intact, no signs of fungus on the body, and there's no other causes for alarm such as White Spot which would be instantly noticeable on a fish of this colour.

Since all the fishes in that aquarium are herbivorous, including the Flag Fish, they've all been fed with vegetarian type foods primarily, so bad diet can't be the problem.

Are Flag Fish just naturally short lived? I've only had this one for 2 years, and the transformation overnight has been alarming to witness. Moreover, the fishes in both aquaria have recently had a big water change, and the other aquarium isn't showing signs of problems, so it can't be the water company overdoing the treatment chemicals again (in any case, if that happened, I'd be experiencing another mass wipeout like the one I had back in October 2005 or thereabouts).

Any answers?

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

hey cal,ok ive had a look in my atlases,and experts beleave the fish has a lifespan of ten years,but most are thought to only live 3 or 4 years!what makes you think that age is the problem,im not saying your wrong by any means,but if it was age,wouldnt he go over time,instead of boom,like over night as you said.....mmmm strange one!hope this helps...
cheers

Yes this one's weird ... he's sitting on the bottom, not moving much, almost as though his swim bladder is stuck in the "water full" position, and he doesn't seem to show much signs of wanting to move. On the rare occasions he does try amd move, he sinks like a stone the moment he stops moving his fins, almost as if he's swallowed a lead weight.

Apart from this, there are no obvious disease symptoms, but he doesn't look at all happy, and I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how to solve this one, just in case it does prove to be solvable. Usually, swim bladder derangement results in a fish floating at the top, in which case you know it's time to consider euthanasia, but thus far, he seems to be capable of obtaining food, probably due to the fact that the SAE's are woefully messy and spread their crumbs about all over the place so he can snap them up even in his present state. This one's turning out to be a real head scratcher.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

mmm yeah maybe its time to start some gentle meds,as you would know,because hes still eating,he has a better chance of recovery.did you get him grown or small?this is strange because they are very hardy little fellasthey dont normally fall victim to any of sort nasties

Im assumming they probably make about 4-6 years, I think 10 would be a bit optimistic for their metabolic rate. Almost sounds like localised renal and bladder damage doesnt it? Considered myxosporea?

I suppose other things to look for would be the obvious, temp hikes and changes in 02 saturation, possible maldigestion. Has it passed anything recently?

That's just it though LHG, any sudden changes in Oxygen saturation or temperature would presumably affect the other fishes as well, and yet my male Flag Fish is the only one apparently affected. Moreover, the recent water change shouldn't have had any adverse effect, as the fishes are used to my regular water changes, and if there had been anything strange in the water, I'd be experiencing a total wipeout in both aquaria as I stated above.

Can't tell if the fish has excreted anything lately, but it seems to be capable of finding food despite its condition, because I haven't noticed any significant wasting away in the past 3 days or so. Even so, quite what is the matter with this fish is puzzling me big time.

As for Myxosporidians, I checked one link in the Merck Veterinary Manual Online (a handy little website that can be found here), but it mostly deals with identifying Myxosporidians once the fish has died, and offers little in the way of hope if there IS a Myxosporidian affecting my fish - and again, I have to ask how come my SAEs aren't stricken with the same symptoms? Plus, given that the aquarium in question has received no new fish stocks in two years, how did a Myxosporidian get in there?


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Perhaps I should explain my thinking, SAE's have a very intuitively intelligent way of seeking out oxygen, they react almost like reoliphs, they seem to be able to track down flow and exploit it for o2 recharges, the FFF will not be as efficient at that, and when it comes to the low edge of o2 saturation, well the fish with the least functional gills is always gonna cop for it, particularly if it happens to be compromised. SAE's are also a warmwater fish, yet the FFF's range may include cooler climbs, and may be more dependant on the o2 saturation remaining high depending on locale history, bloodline and area of collection.

Then you have the issue of a disease that can cause renal issues, now gill tissue and renal function are linked, a renal waste issue could damage gill function much as in reverse, a poor gill function may retard renal efficiency, mineral build ups in the gill tissue from poor venting of renal wastes could cause problems with gill lamellae as the salt glands could in effect potentially be retaining chloride minerals beyond the norm, the amount of space on a gill structure dedicated normally to renal waste and osmotic balancing could become abnormally hyperextended, causing a low o2 intake.

The other point is that myxosporea dont always have a predictable life cycle, and infection rates could be individual to one fish rather than to a whole population within an aquarium, depending on what host species may have been consumed, and how suitable the fish is as an intermediary host, so, im thinking that perhaps its possible that the myxosporea is undergoing a very low developmental rate. Also there are protozoa to consider, hexamita for example is by no means exclusive to cichlids, and has several strains, and again could damage renal function in years rather than weeks, and much the same could be said for mycobacterium. A mycobacterial lesion could happen anywhere within the body of a fish causing a number of symptoms, yet never causing traditional spinal deformity or external lesions. Depending on personal resistance, no other fish in the same aquarium need show a single symptom. Possibly even aeromonas could have a slow progression too, many goldfish for example are at least partially immune and may live with it for years before an event or change triggers a minor bout of immuno supression and you get a full symptom set.Only recently a lady in a forum who owned a fff for 6 months put it in with goldfish, who it shortly took to nipping, all goldfish were taken with aeromonas and had to be treated with antibiotic, yet only after several months had passed was the FFF, which proved to be an assymptomatic carrier taken ill, when segregation forced a change in its environment.

Beyond that youve got long term dietary concerns, various deficiencies, after all algae is not necessarily nutritionally consistant.

It just strikes me that I remember when you first got them, and it does seem to be a very short time for there to have been a genetically determined expiry, though I appreciate not every fish is born to survive, and if captive raised a good number of fish will survive beyond normal natural perameters where lack of physical performance would have sealed their fate long ago. The captive genepool may be limited.

I was wondering, have you had a chance to look at the gills, or the major vein running toward the aft of the underbelly to see if its reddened or enflamed?

Sadly my male Falg Fish is no more. I had to euthanise the poor thing. The condition, whatever it was, became unrecoverable. Sigh.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

i HATE when that happens,sorry to hear that cal,i did try to pm you back ,but its not letting me,please dont think im not answering you mate

Hello there Hokese - turns out my mailbox was full. I'd allowed the clutter in there to accumulate.

I've just cleared out a couple of old, redundant messages, and now you should be able to mail me again.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

did you end up finding what killed him mate?its bad enuff when you lose a fish,and you know for sure what killed it,but when you dont know thats even worse

Well I never found out what caused the initial swim bladder failure, but despite that, he seemed to be capable of finding food and eating even if his swimming was somewhat ungainly.

Then, I found him on his side looking seriously sick. It was at that point that I decided to take a closer examination, and somehow he'd picked up a cottonmouth infection. It was pretty obvious that the case was terminal, and that even if I could provide him with treatment for the cottonmouth, the internal control of any body equilibrium had long since departed, so on that basis, I decided the only thing left to do was give him as humane an exit as possible.

By the way, a relatively quick and not too expensive way of euthanising a small fish consists of availing yourself of some liver salts. You know, that white powder that becomes ridiculously fizzy when you add water, and makes you go the toilet pretty sharpish the morning after? Well, if you obtain some of that, the carbon dioxide it generates when added to the water shuts down the gills of a sick fish in about 2-3 seconds, and the fish is safely dead within about 10 seconds. Pop your small fish in a cup, add a teaspoon of liver salts, and 10 seconds later, you have one safely euthanised fish. It's somewhat impractical for fishes beyond a certain size, but it's a useful technique to know. Of course, there's no way you'd be able to do this with a large Caquetaia umbrifera Cichlid because you'd need about a kilo of liver salts to do the job, and a more efficient means of dispatch for something the size of an adult Umbee would probably involve a .22 pistol!



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

all these years,and it still sadens me to hear of sick fish/death...but ill keep that technique in mind for smaller fish,but you done the right thing mate,im sure of it!so do you think you will replace him,or will his memory be enuff

Sorry to hear you lost him. Always a bit depressing when you lose a fish. No matter how experienced and expert at fishkeeping you have become a death always comes with a certain sting and sometimes a bit of self doubt. Never pleasant.

Im on tinterhooks myself, ive gotta get this rescue fish back into condition, its been nearly starved to death by a shop, I already pulled one around but the first one wasnt as thin as this.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/fish328.jpg


This was the one that arrived ojn the 24th of april.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/fish125.jpg

Then the 29th

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/fish142.jpg

Then the 8th of may....

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/fish025.jpg


....and how it looks today.Pretty much fully recovered.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/fish311.jpg

Hope I can pull it off twice, but i've not got the best feeling on this one, the rescue might have come too late. Fish this size are a hell of a responsibility anyway, but when theyre ill I worry myself sick.

i dont know how people can be so cruel,plus letting him get so bad,once he started getting thin,they should have acted then,but good luck,and well done lh