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tank parameters

am-0ppm
nrIte-0ppm
nrAte-70-80ppm (did water change, down to 30-40ppm)
ph-7.8
temp-28

filtration

fluval 304, UGF

additives

African crystals, 1tsp per 8l
bi carb- 1-2tsp in the whole tank
nacl- usualy add 1tsp each water change
declorinator/stress coat.

stocking

3 clown loaches
5 protomelas similis
7 eletric yellows
3 metriclima greshaki
2 eletric blues
1 CAE

tank size

4'*18"*18 (70 gal?)

problem

i came home last night fed my fish some blood worm and beef heart cubes (i normaly feed tetra colour bits, the beefheart and blood worm are ocasional treats every 1-2 weeks) anyway i didn't notice if the fish was sick at this stage or not,he could well have been. came back after dinner saw my largest electric yellow (10-12cm) in noticable destress, he was barrel rolling at the bottom of the tank, i got my net out and caught him without any fight (normaly my yellows take forever to catch and i have to pull all the rocks and things out to get em.) when i examined him he apeared to have a swollen abdomen, one of his eyes was a little bit white (though i'm not sure if its because he has uneven patches of black on him making one eye apear whiter than the other.) no marking on skin or around anus, no signs of a fight. he continued to barrel roll in the net. i moved him to one of my 2ft tall fry tanks (prefer to risk them than my main tank) keeping him in the net, he was breathing heavily and remined still, no longer rolling. this morning he was still not moving but his breating was not as heavy (mabie hes giving up?)

i have not treated with anything as i figured this was an internal problem (i.e. bloat) and all i have on hand is cure all (methalyne blue and malachyte green active ingreedients)

anyone have sugestions on what it could be (is bloat not far off the mark? there is no rednees anuond the anus or stuck out scales so mabie its not) and how do i treat it? should i treat it? or should he be put down? i think i need metranodozle (spelling) right? what will that do to my filters? should i put him in a bucket with a filter and some water? (no qt tank available), then again i dont have a spare heater! let me know what you all think.

Those plastic tubs they sell at BigW or The Warehouse etc. are ideal as hospital tanks. A 50L one is about $10AUD. My LFS sells small heaters for about $20ea. I also suggest you get something like that - they work very well with the plastic tub. As it'll be a hospital tank, i suggest you add very little (or NO) gravel, and there is no need for a filter as you'll be doing day to 2 day water changes.

If you want Metrodizanole, you will need to go and talk to your vet or a good LFS. Discus breeders always seem to have access to the stuff, but your local vet can also prescribe it.

From your description, it's hard to tell if it's bloat or not. It could just be an internal parasite. What do you feed the fish? Can you post any pic's of the fish?

Finally - worst case scenario - if you decide to 'put down' your fish, a bath of glove oil will anesthetise the fish and shut down all of it's primary organs. Then put it in the freezer and let it freeze in a glass of water. Then bury/burn it.

thanks for your help jester

my friend went down to the lfs today and got me some Metrodizanole, the lfs suggested to treat the whole tank, does anyone know if this will kill the bacteria in my filter?

i'm sory but i cant post pics, no camera.

like i said i feed colour bits and ocasional beef heart/blood worm (once a week/fornight) and ocasionaly live brine shrimp (once a month)

Metro will most likely wipe your bacteria out. It's better to isolate this fish anyway. Obviously, in a 50L tub, you're only using 1/6th of the quantity of Metro to treat the tank. You save your bacteria... and you're not unnecesarily treating other fish for a disease they most likely don't have. Seriously, it's the best $10 you'll spend in your fish keeping life! I also use my hospital tanks for pre-treating and aging water before adding it after a water change. So it's win win.

There was a thread posted here a while ago with suggested dose rates for the metro if you want/need them. I'm not sure where it is... but search the hospital forum for Metro and it should show up.

I didn't mention it before - but your nitrates are still extremely high at 30-40ppm. They were well and truely lethal before... now tey're just BAD! do some more water changes - i suggest doing a 15% change every day until you get it below 15ppm. Then, monitor every day until you establish a pattern. The fish you have are fussy about water quality, so if you want to keep them well you'd better learn to keep the nitrates down and other tank parameters in check. I suspect you'll be looking at 2 * 15% change per week in that tank.

realy? at the moment i do 1 50% a week, that usualy takes it down to about 20-30, might try a few smaller ones this week.

thanks for the help jester. because my work is nowhere near a LFS (at least not close enough to get to in my lunch break) i was unable to get a heater (got plenty of tubs lying around) anyway i sent my very generous friend to our LFS who gave us 11 meto tablets and told us to treat the whole tank. she seems to think that if it isn't bloat (though she suspects it is) the metro will prevent any other fish from contracing any disease. said to use 3 and a half tabs a day try to get the fish to eat it.

he wouldn't eat (or move realy) once i added the meds he seemed to pick up his breathing (i dont know if this is a good or bad sign)

in the future i will have a heater and bucket on hand to treat sick fish. normaly i have a spare heater (been keeping fish long enough to know to have a spare on hand, especialy when you have 6 tanks!)

Yeah, i've found multiple changes makes a big difference. My main tank has 2 * 12" Oscars, and if i do 2 15-20% changes per week, everything is good. Try to do one 50% change, and it's an uphill battle to get it settled down again. It really is the buildup of muck on/in the gravel!

It sounds like you've got a decent plan. Just follow it through. You might need to treat with the metro for a week or so. Getting the fish to eat it, or injecting them is def. the way to go if you think they can cope with it. The metro is designed as an internal med against protozoan and other such... it works better on the inside

Hi there,
metro may or may not work.
Sounds like either a constipation issue,
or a swim bladder problem.
Try feeding some skinned cooked canned
or frozen peas for a day or two,
see if that helps.
Definitely try the metro.
Give it a solid week or so and see how
the fish is in quarantine.

You must have nitrAtes coming out
of your tap with that high reading.
Optimally, try to keep nitrates under
40ppm always. In high amounts they can be
dangerous, even lethal to fish.
I would consider upping your water change schedule
to 2 35% water changes a week, and consider
upping the filtration.
A sponge filter is great, cheap, collects lots
of nitrifying bacteria, and provides oxygen too.
Hooks to an air pump and man do they ever
help keep the water clean.

Also, on a side note, I am slightly amazed
at your stocking. Clown loaches in an African
Cichlid tank? Im even amazed they are surviving
with your addition of african cichlid salt.
Usually clown loaches are best kept in peaceful,
soft water tanks with no salt added.
But hey, if their doin ok for ya right on!
Just amazing is all.


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Filtrations not going to help with Nitrates - they're the end of the bacteria cycle. The only way to remove nitrates is to remove water and replace it. Airation helps keep you bacteria coloneys healthy and your fish absorb oxygen. It's not going to help with the nitrates issue.

The pea idea is good, but be very carefull about the size of the pea you feed your fish. I was told by a vet (before my moorii died ) that large chunks of hard to digest food (like pea's) may cause bowel obstructions. Always remove the husk/shell from the pea's and always divide them into small chunks for your fish. A better option is to feed spirulina based food to your fish regularly.

In this case, the fish is not eating. So, it's unlikely pea's will help you now. The problem (if it is constipation )is that it sounds to me like the bowel is already infected. I've heard Metro can be quite effective for treating swim bladder so i'd continue to persue the treatment anyway. The loss of balance says to me either swim bladder or malawi bloat. Metro's a good choice for the treatment.

i didn't see the fish this morning, i was at my girlfriend place last nite, hope he's ok. as for the clown loaches its pretty common to see them in african tanks in australia, especialy in LFS. i dont know why but they dont seem to mind, the good thing about them is they seem to be a barometer for tank health. the slightest more of amonia or nitrate or temp and they turn very pale. the other fish tend to respect them (and who wouldn't with those mean spikes!)

i doubt there'd be too much nitrate in the gravel given that these guys constantly move it arouond and gravel vacs dont produce a great deal of mlum. i also doubt that thres nitrates in the water, melbourne is suposed to have the worlds best tap water especialy in the east. i will check tho.

the UGF (which covers only a smal portion of the tank, a trick i learnt from a famous melboourne breeder) should provide ample areation. water clarity is not an issue.

can you recomend a good spiriluna flake/pellet

as i said i feed mainy colour bits and suplement with frozen/live foods. cost is no problem for these guys!

I use both Nutrafin and Hikari spirulina based foods. I have 2 varieties of the Nutrafin - one as pellets that my Loaches love and one as sticks that i feed to our Brasilliensus. The Hikari pellets are fed to my Oscars as they prefer the size and shape... fussy buggers! I think both of these are a good part of regular diet, and should be easy to get from your LFS.

For veggie flake I use HBH 8 Veggie Flake.
Its much better than plain spirulina, it actually
has 7 other veggies in it. Its a bit more expensive,
but all the Fish go crazy for it.
Every Sunday, my fish have a meaty food fast,
and I feed them nothing but veggies to keep
them cleared out, as I once lost a Gourami
to constipation.
I start the day with a light feeding of HBH 8
Veggie flake. About midway through the day I drop
in some canned peas which I skin and then slightly
mush in the water a bit. Most fish love peas,
and peas are very very good for them.
Then at the end of the day, I put in either a peice
of raw Zuchinni, or some Green Beans for the plecos
and SAE's and Rainbow Shark.
Then Mondays I do my water change, after the fish have
been all cleaned up, and resume regular foods monday night.



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Bad news people, my fishy had to be put down.

when i came home last night one of the fish had somehow sucked his eye off though the net he was in! i felt so dumb! this had happened to me before with frys being sucked through a net but not with a full grown fish!

so anyway i put him ina bucket, 4 parts water one part vodka and he went to sleep very quickly.

i have one more day of the metro left, i was advised by my LFS to continue treatment then do a WC tomorow.

in the future i'll do more water changes a week (i'm thinking my normal sat 50% change and a smaller 25% on wed's.

ill also start feeding vegies once a week and get a spiriluna based flake.